Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[Bob_Sacamano]

We lost you a billion dollars?!?!?! Your good buddy Leo and his buddies wasted that billion dollars to keep a bunch of families on food stamps. The total package we asked for would have only cost $30 Million a year. Leo & Company thought it was smarter to blow a million bucks to teach the lowly Connection carrier who was in charge. Blame your leaders, not the former Comair pilots.

You guys lost us $1 billion and we paid (along with everyone else) for your benefits during the strike. It was a failure, and then you didn't want to help our furloughed pilots unless you got more 70 seaters. Your sense of history is really screwed up.

And, can you tell me how a group of pilots who are about to get a 15% pay raise and are bringing old DC9s and 742s to the table are going to get screwed? Oh yeah, they have a chunk of retirements just before our own large chunk of retirements......Is that what you mean? You need to do some better research.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

We lost you a billion dollars?!?!?! Your good buddy Leo and his buddies wasted that billion dollars to keep a bunch of families on food stamps. The total package we asked for would have only cost $30 Million a year. Leo & Company thought it was smarter to blow a million bucks to teach the lowly Connection carrier who was in charge. Blame your leaders, not the Comair pilots.

You guys lost us $1 billion and we paid (along with everyone else) for your benefits during the strike. It was a failure, and then you didn't want to help our furloughed pilots unless you got more 70 seaters. Your sense of history is really screwed up.

And, can you tell me how a group of pilots who are about to get a 15% pay raise and are bringing old DC9s and 742s to the table are going to get screwed? Oh yeah, they have a chunk of retirements just before our own large chunk of retirements......Is that what you mean? You need to do some better research.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

737, too bad you guys can't post a "paper" profit. When's the next round of concessions?

Kind of like your paper girlfriend, or is she rubber?:laugh:

737

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

No. The Delta guys who walked on our picket line were always accompanied by a throng of photographers.

And you can't be serious saying that Delta pilots opened the Comair Strike Center?!?!? Then why were we assessed all those extra dues for it? And strangely enough, I don't recall any Delta guys at our Strike Center, other than picket line photo ops.

Were these the same Delta guys that walked the line with Comair guys and opened their strike center in an effort to help said striking Comair pilots? You are an idiot!

 

[737 Pylt]

No. The Delta guys who walked on our picket line were always accompanied by a throng of photographers.

And you can't be serious saying that Delta pilots opened the Comair Strike Center?!?!? Then why were we assessed all those extra dues for it? And strangely enough, I don't recall any Delta guys at our Strike Center, other than picket line photo ops.

Your strike cost our company $1billion! I blame the comair pilots for that loss!
And at least I was nice to you while you were a Walmart greeter!
737

 

[Tanker Clown]

Your strike cost our company $1billion! I blame the comair pilots for that loss!
And at least I was nice to you while you were a Walmart greeter!
737

What's a billion dollars to Delta? They lose 6.7 times that much in a quarter.

 

[737 Pylt]

What's a billion dollars to Delta? They lose 6.7 times that much in a quarter.

Imagine what we could do in a whole year!

I blame all those damn regional jets and comair pilots for all the losses!

737

 

[General Lee]

I know of 3 DAL junior pilots on the 767, 2 in JFK and 1 in ATL that commute from MSP that would gladly trade the 767 line holder life style for a MSP dc-9 reserve schedule. QOL is more important than what plane you fly or what airline fly for

That is absolutely ridiculous. Look at the difference between 1st and 2nd year pay on both of those planes. 2nd year pay on the 757/767 at DL could buy you an additional snow mobile to drive to the store in the Great White North, compared with 8th year pay on the DC9. Nah.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Sure they did. The only monetary support from the Delta pilots were the ALPA assessments. We kept track of all of the contributions we received over and above the assessments. There was less than a half a page from Delta pilots. We had literally hundreds of contributions from United, Northwest, even UPS and American.

And the only Delta pilots I ever saw while I was walking the line, would have other guys taking their photos.

As for the struck flying, I guess you never heard that DALPA's MEC Chairman told JC Lawson "******************** you, we're Delta. We'll do what we want." I guess JC was lying to my face when he told me that?

And I'm very grateful for the support we got from thousands of strangers. But it sure seemed like there was a huge lack of support from who we thought should have been our closest allies.

And just for the record, wasn't the Delta Strike Committee preparing for a possible DAL strike, in the event you didn't get United +1, not helping the Comair strike efforts, like you're letting on.

What a bunch of crap. I was there (on the Delta side) and the Delta pilots bent over backwards to help the Comair pilots. Our support was not just monetary, but operational as well as our pilots walked the line with you. Our strike committee was working 24/7 to ensure no struck flying was done by our pilots. I know firsthand that segments were canceled because of this. I don't expect a pat on the back or even acknowledgment, but reading lies from an ungrateful, disgruntled dog turd just irks me.

 

[737 Pylt]

Sure they did. The only monetary support from the Delta pilots were the ALPA assessments. We kept track of all of the contributions we received over and above the assessments. There was less than a half a page from Delta pilots. We had literally hundreds of contributions from United, Northwest, even UPS and American.

<yawn>!

And the only Delta pilots I ever saw while I was walking the line, would have other guys taking their photos.

So there were Delta pilots there walking the picket line? How many were there from United, Northwest, Even UPS and American?

As for the struck flying, I guess you never heard that DALPA's MEC Chairman told JC Lawson "******************** you, we're Delta. We'll do what we want." I guess JC was lying to my face when he told me that?

Yes, jc lawson was lying, he's quite good at it!

And I'm very grateful for the support we got from thousands of strangers. But it sure seemed like there was a huge lack of support from who we thought should have been our closest allies.

You mean those very same pilots you tried to sue?
The ones who were there walking the picket lines with you?

And just for the record, wasn't the Delta Strike Committee preparing for a possible DAL strike, in the event you didn't get United +1, not helping the Comair strike efforts, like you're letting on.

No, you're wrong, as usual!

737

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Thanks for the advice. No, my history is pretty much right on.

The Comair MEC, not the entire pilot group, recommended to the company that any furloughed Delta pilot should start at the bottom of the Comair list without super-seniority, and recommended they that require surrendering their Delta seniority number. Comair was free to do anything they wanted, by the way.

Personally, I didn't care if Comair hired anyone from Delta. But I wouldn't think it would be fair for them to get hired with super-seniority, since there had never been any sort of flow-through agreement. But the fact of the matter is that this whole issue was never even raised to the membership.

You shouldn't drink and type. You have a very warped sense of history. Explain to us again why Comair wouldn't help furloughed Delta pilots while ASA was more than accomodating? Who got screwed?

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

<yawn>!

I've always said there were Delta pilots there. I walked with 4 of them I think. And all had cameras clicking in their faces the whole time. I remember United, CAL, and NW guys with us. I don't recall any American or UPS guys walking, although they had hundreds of pilots that contributed to our pilots' fund.


So there were Delta pilots there walking the picket line? How many were there from United, Northwest, Even UPS and American?



Yes, jc lawson was lying, he's quite good at it!

I'm not sure about that. When I caught him lying, it was pretty obvious.



You mean those very same pilots you tried to sue?
The ones who were there walking the picket lines with you?

Uhhhh, I didn't sue anybody. Are you trying to group the entire Comair group with those RJDC guys? That group was made of of RJ guys from dozens of airlines, even your beloved ASA...Cooksey anyone?



No, you're wrong, as usual!

737

No, just not as stuck on myself as you guys.

 

[tblosser]

As for the struck flying, I guess you never heard that DALPA's MEC Chairman told JC Lawson "******************** you, we're Delta. We'll do what we want." I guess JC was lying to my face when he told me that?

I can’t comment on what Captain Lawson did or didn’t say but I remember referencing a DALPA published document in CVG while y’all were striking. The point of this document was to ensure that we did not fly struck work and we all took this very seriously. Are you suggesting that we were flying struck work?

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Nice mouth. Your boyfriend must love it when you talk dirty like that. Yet another gleaming example of a true Delta Professional.


Anyway, if you really did buy those 20 cups of coffee, thank you. But by your cool demeanor, you sure sound like one of the hecklers.

FU you F'ing F.

I remember buying your lines coffee in CVG and paying an assesement every week for you. Putz, pure putz---

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I AM suggesting that while our MEC was working with the DAL MEC to try and define the struck work, the Delta Chairman said F us, and that Delta would do whatever they wanted.

I can’t comment on what Captain Lawson did or didn’t say but I remember referencing a DALPA published document in CVG while y’all were striking. The point of this document was to ensure that we did not fly struck work and we all took this very seriously. Are you suggesting that we were flying struck work?

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

God, that sucks. There's no sickness like food poisoning from seafood. Isn't there some old wive's tale that you shouldn't eat oysters except in months that end in "r"?

Yes, Spondivits is around, but a bunch of people recently got sick on some oysters I believe. Also, if you have LONG layovers here (like during a European 6 day trip with ATL in the middle), I bet you would go downtown. I know a lot of our other bases have ATL layovers, and they stay downtown if they are over 12 hours.

I hope you are right about the DC9s and 742s. It just seems obvious that they could be parked. As far as the rest of the fleet goes, we are still getting more widebodies and 73NGs. That, along with your work rule changes to reflect ours will hopefully mitigate furloughs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Does this board have moderators?

Bob Sacamano is out of line, off topic, and clearly flame baiting.

A terrorist has walked into the marketplace of ideas. Someone call security.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Luckily, I've always had an outside business interest, so I was fine. And I fly for a much more secure airline now. But it's nice that you're still making fun of the fact that some pilots were on assistance. Real classy.

Sorry Bob, I didn't know that was you.....:smash:
Did you ever get off food stamps??:laugh:

737

 

[tblosser]

Thanks for the advice. No, my history is pretty much right on.

The Comair MEC, not the entire pilot group, recommended to the company that any furloughed Delta pilot should start at the bottom of the Comair list without super-seniority, and recommended they that require surrendering their Delta seniority number. Comair was free to do anything they wanted, by the way.

Did any Comair pilot ever raise an objection at an MEC or LEC meeting? Was there ever a resolution introduced in opposition to it? Wasn’t the entire MEC including Captain JC Lawson re-elected by a large margin after this incident?

Personally, I didn't care if Comair hired anyone from Delta. But I wouldn't think it would be fair for them to get hired with super-seniority, since there had never been any sort of flow-through agreement. But the fact of the matter is that this whole issue was never even raised to the membership.

Was the membership aware of the actions taken on their behalf by the MEC? Did anyone object to the actions taken by the MEC? Once again didn’t the MEC get re-elected by a large margin? Sound like the membership approved of the actions of the MEC to me.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

You could blame Edgar Rice Burroughs for the loss, but that doesn't mean it's true.

But your Walmart comment really shows what a class act you are. Fulfilling the stereotype perfectly.

Your strike cost our company $1billion! I blame the comair pilots for that loss!
And at least I was nice to you while you were a Walmart greeter!
737

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Not until after the fact. I do recall there being quite a bit of discussion on the ALPA forum about that. But within just a few days, the company stated that any new-hire would have to resign their seniority numbers, so that pretty much ended the debate.

I don't recall any election margins. But that was just one issue. (Remember this was right after 9/11.) I think it might be a bit much to draw the conclusion that resigning a seniority number was the only thing the pilot group was endorsing or censuring the MEC for.

Was the membership aware of the actions taken on their behalf by the MEC? Did anyone object to the actions taken by the MEC? Once again didn’t the MEC get re-elected by a large margin? Sound like the membership approved of the actions of the MEC to me.

 

[Jmoney]

Luckily, I've always had an outside business interest, so I was fine. And I fly for a much more secure airline now. But it's nice that you're still making fun of the fact that some pilots were on assistance. Real classy.

Pay no attention to 737/General Lee..... They are one in the same. This freakshow has actually posted about 15000 times here in the vain hope that anyone gives a rats butt what he thinks. Definitely not a stable person.

The really funny part is that I know exactly who he really is, and exactly what he does for DAL.... Cat's out of the bag-idiot! Oh, BTW-how is that mentoring going these days, BM-hmmmm? Not too much business, I see.... Well, best of luck, pal-freaks like you need some sort of distraction to draw you away from here.

At any rate, 737/General's only mission in life is to run around threatening and berating anyone who does not buy his B.S. about Delta taking over the known universe and flying to Mars one day soon. You may note that whenever someone attacks the General, 737 jumps right in to defend him... A very weak good-cop, bad-cop sort of thing.... Plainly sad, truth be told.

-Just be glad you don't ever have to share a cockpit with this moron! I feel really sorry for anyone who has to fly around listening to this fool all day!

 

[tblosser]

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I AM suggesting that while our MEC was working with the DAL MEC to try and define the struck work, the Delta Chairman said F us, and that Delta would do whatever they wanted.

I don’t understand. Were we working to define struck work or were we telling y’all to pound sand? I am sure there was some harsh language used given the heated nature of the subject matter but insinuating that we were flying struck work is a bit much.

 

[tblosser]

Not until after the fact. I do recall there being quite a bit of discussion on the ALPA forum about that. But within just a few days, the company stated that any new-hire would have to resign their seniority numbers, so that pretty much ended the debate.


So Comair management went along with the Comair MEC on seniority resignation after the MEC made it know that hiring furloughed Delta pilots with out resignation would create an unsafe condition in the cockpit. If you doubt that this was the opinion of the MEC I will be happy to forward you a copy of Captain Lawson’s memo on the subject.

I don't recall any election margins. But that was just one issue. (Remember this was right after 9/11.) I think it might be a bit much to draw the conclusion that resigning a seniority number was the only thing the pilot group was endorsing or censuring the MEC for.

So the answer to my question about any opposition form the rank and file is no. Thanks.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

For the second time, I didn't insinuate Delta pilots were flying struck work. You're simply trying to put words in my mouth.

My example is to refute that the Delta group bent over backwards to support us during our strike. One moron even suggested that Delta pilots opened OUR strike center. The simple truth is that your MEC was trying to control the Comair group, without showing anywhere near the support of that almost every other major airline showed us.

I don’t understand. Were we working to define struck work or were we telling y’all to pound sand? I am sure there was some harsh language used given the heated nature of the subject matter but insinuating that we were flying struck work is a bit much.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

There was plenty of opposition. But I guess you're looking to impugn the entire Comair pilot group for not recalling the MEC over an issue that was out of our hands (i.e. a corporate decision), go right ahead.

So the answer to my question about any opposition form the rank and file is no. Thanks.

 

[tblosser]

For the second time, I didn't insinuate Delta pilots were flying struck work. You're simply trying to put words in my mouth.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to try and put words in your mouth I was just trying to understand what you were saying

My example is to refute that the Delta group bent over backwards to support us during our strike. One moron even suggested that Delta pilots opened OUR strike center. The simple truth is that your MEC was trying to control the Comair group, without showing anywhere near the support of that almost every other major airline showed us.

Could we have done more to help y’all? I am sure we could but we did do a lot during your strike, both at the MEC and individual pilot level. I am sure the egos on both sides got in the way of helping the individual pilots during a difficult time.

 

[tblosser]

There was plenty of opposition. But I guess you're looking to impugn the entire Comair pilot group for not recalling the MEC over an issue that was out of our hands (i.e. a corporate decision), go right ahead.

There may have been plenty of internal opposition but form the outside it sure did not look like it. This is why I asked if there was ever any effort, regardless of how futile the effort may have been, to oppose the MEC’s decision. I am not looking to cast the entire Comair pilot group as being in lock step agreement over this issue or any other. Nor would I have expected the rank and file to attempt to recall the MEC over this issue. However it is disingenuous for you to suggest that the opinion of the MEC had no impact on the final corporate decision.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

With any stressful situation, there's always more that could be done. But that should never take away from the genuinely nice things that were done by a lot of folks.

But as an example, there simply was a lot more financial support from almost every other airline than Delta. We kept track of it. Since American wasn't part of ALPA, they didn't pay an assessment. But we had something like eleven pages of names from contributors from American. And there were like eight pages of contributors from Northwest and United. We had UPS guys who would pick up extra trips and donate the pay from the entire trip to our fund. At the end of the strike, there was less than half a page of donations from Delta pilots.

And obviously nothing was required. But when you factor that in with the fact that your MEC chairman said "F U" when we tried to define struck work, and that we did get heckled by Delta pilots while our guys were walking on the picket lines, it's not too hard to understand why there were hard feelings.

Could we have done more to help y’all? I am sure we could but we did do a lot during your strike, both at the MEC and individual pilot level. I am sure the egos on both sides got in the way of helping the individual pilots during a difficult time.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Oh, the MEC's letter may very well have impacted Comair's decision. But I'm 99% convinced that decision came down to the System Chief Pilot. I don't know if he's even still at Comair, but I recall Steve Briner saying he wouldn't hire anybody if they wouldn't resign their number. He mentioned training costs for a guy who was guaranteed to be a short-timer.

There may have been plenty of internal opposition but form the outside it sure did not look like it. This is why I asked if there was ever any effort, regardless of how futile the effort may have been, to oppose the MEC’s decision. I am not looking to cast the entire Comair pilot group as being in lock step agreement over this issue or any other. Nor would I have expected the rank and file to attempt to recall the MEC over this issue. However it is disingenuous for you to suggest that the opinion of the MEC had no impact on the final corporate decision.