Furloughs at Delta and Northwest

[~~~^~~~]

I would venture to guess, and it is only a guess that if we get 737's they will be replacement jets. Until there is an SLI I would guess that the NWA side would get the seats if they replace the 9.
But again it depends on how it is negotiated. If the order is placed for the DAL side or before the joint PWA and DCC then all bets are off.

Doesn't LOA19 award growth 60/40? I was thinking that LOA 19 actually provided protections for both sides to prevent whipsaw with retire and replace schemes.

I don't see a different 737 program being started for NWA, or a new A319/320 program being started at Delta.

My guess is that the DC9's will be replaced by established regional jet programs & a few 737's. Of course, I support one list with Compass and the others.

 

[Superpilot92]

Fences make good neighbors, but they also lead to people misjudging what their neighbors are doing when they cannot see them.
There are good things and bad things to a fence.

Agreed. however they also restrict the company from gaining ALL the benefits of this. I don't think there will be any reason to fence any aircraft other than some peoples fragile egos. The benefits of a fence anywhere in the combined company wont do anything but distract from the common goal of complete integration.

 

[Superpilot92]

Doesn't LOA19 award growth 60/40? I was thinking that LOA 19 actually provided protections for both sides to prevent whipsaw with retire and replace schemes. retire and replace schemes are why fences arent going to help us gain complete integration and get past the division asap.

I don't see a different 737 program being started for NWA, or a new A319/320 program being started at Delta. I agree hence why its pointless to fence anything.

My guess is that the DC9's will be replaced by established regional jet programs & a few 737's. I am guessing the 50ish remaining dc9s will be around for a while in place of the 50 seaters until mainline gets the dc9s replaced. Of course, I support one list with Compass and the others.

LOA 19 wont mean anything once the joint contract is completed and signed off.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fin;
I should have spelled that out better. It does and FDJ2 reminded me of that.
What I was referring to is DC-9's parked and 737 delivered. All bets are off for the NWA folks. Absent a joint PWA LOA 19 prevails. I would venture to guess that due to the issues of the LOA for the NWA pilot our management will do everything they can to avoid announcing more airframes until the joint PWA is ratified. Now if that is not possible they will just deal with the bad blood. They made that choice once, and I am willing to bet that they will do it again, if they need to.

 

[Noserider76]

Agreed. however they also restrict the company from gaining ALL the benefits of this. I don't think there will be any reason to fence any aircraft other than some peoples fragile egos. The benefits of a fence anywhere in the combined company wont do anything but distract from the common goal of complete integration.

Nothing at all to do with fragile egos. It's about protecting everyone's current quality of life and expectations during a transition period. Previous commuters flooding a desireable base or piece of equipment will create bad feelings on one side and a windfall for the other. The company will of course want no restrictions but that's tough. Five years seems like a reasonable amount of time for people to adjust. A deal this big needs to minimize the impact on the employees lives as much as possible and phase in the changes to keep people focused on the job, not the changes.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

quite a valid point. The million dollar question is whether management will entertain that notion this time around.
In Feb. they were willing to give us pay incentives to not have fences. Will they again in Jun?

 

[Superpilot92]

Nothing at all to do with fragile egos. It's about protecting everyone's current quality of life and expectations during a transition period. Previous commuters flooding a desireable base or piece of equipment will create bad feelings on one side and a windfall for the other. The company will of course want no restrictions but that's tough. Five years seems like a reasonable amount of time for people to adjust. A deal this big needs to minimize the impact on the employees lives as much as possible and phase in the changes to keep people focused on the job, not the changes.

I agree to an extent but there are negative aspects to fences that would effect both sides not to mention effect the benefits to the company in general. It further divides the pilot groups and brings up all questions involved with how future aircraft orders are managed. There isnt going to be a bump flush for anyone so why the worry. Both sides will have people who move around to different bases it wont just be NWA people.

 

[Noserider76]

I agree to an extent but there are negative aspects to fences that would effect both sides not to mention effect the benefits to the company in general. It further divides the pilot groups and brings up all questions involved with how future aircraft orders are managed. There isnt going to be a bump flush for anyone so why the worry. Both sides will have people who move around to different bases it wont just be NWA people.

There's nothing to stop the company from flying any piece of equipment from any base except a little deadhead/credit time. Fences do not have to divide the group at all. There will be agreements on how to handle new orders. It should give both sides a warm feeling that at least they can count on life as they know it for a period of time, unless there were those who thought all their commuting problems were about to be solved. No bump/flush is a given but watching your seniority deteriorate bid after bid is a non-starter.

 

[clippyrip]

Delta Air Lines Reports March 2008 Quarter Financial Results

As of March 31, 2008, Delta had $3.6 billion in unrestricted liquidity, including $1 billion available under its revolving credit facility.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=11053

Northwest Airlines Reports First Quarter 2008 Results

Northwest ended the quarter with $3.2 billion in unrestricted cash and $484 million in restricted cash.

http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2008/pr042320081987.html

Also from that same article was the losses for that quarter. I'm sure you just forgot to put that in, so here you go:


Delta’s reported net loss for the March 2008 quarter was $6.4 billion, or $16.15 per diluted share.

Northwest Airlines today reported a first quarter 2008 net loss of $4.1 billion, or $15.78 per share.

 

[Noserider76]

quite a valid point. The million dollar question is whether management will entertain that notion this time around.
In Feb. they were willing to give us pay incentives to not have fences. Will they again in Jun?

Money might have been a factor in a negotiated SLI but there's almost no chance of that now. We'll have an arbitrated settlement and fences should be an integral part of our arguement.

 

[FDJ2]

Also from that same article was the losses for that quarter. I'm sure you just forgot to put that in, so here you go:


Delta’s reported net loss for the March 2008 quarter was $6.4 billion, or $16.15 per diluted share.

Northwest Airlines today reported a first quarter 2008 net loss of $4.1 billion, or $15.78 per share.

I didn't forget, I was just correcting the misinformation you were putting out about each company's cash position. Specifically when you wrote:

"You choose to forget the fact that NWA brought more cash to this merger."

That's obviously an incorrect statement.

As far as that $6.4B loss, you forgot, to mention that
it included a $6.1 billion non-cash goodwill impairment charge and approximately $500 million for investments in aircraft, parts and modifications to improve Delta’s international product and position the airline for continued international growth.

 

[clippyrip]

.

2007 Revenue

DL 19.2 B
NW 12.5 B

Part of the equation is revenue, the other part is debt, which Delta has more of....


Delta: $9 billion debt



Northwest: $7.1 billion debt

 

[Superpilot92]

There's nothing to stop the company from flying any piece of equipment from any base except a little deadhead/credit time. Fences do not have to divide the group at all. There will be agreements on how to handle new orders. It should give both sides a warm feeling that at least they can count on life as they know it for a period of time, see below unless there were those who thought all their commuting problems were about to be solved. No bump/flush is a given but watching your seniority deteriorate bid after bid is a non-starter. so does furloughs as a result of not having the efficiencies we need to make this whole thing as beneficial as possible.

Without the efficiencies of a complete merger then "life as we know it" might not be "as we know it" is my point. There is a reason why mgmt wants to avoid fences. I am just saying we need the "synergies" to give this company the best chance of survival during these horrible economic conditions..

 

[licorice]

Part of the equation is revenue, the other part is debt, which Delta has more of....


Delta: $9 billion debt



Northwest: $7.1 billion debt

Be careful with numbers: Delta has approx. 48% more RPM's than NWA as a measure of "size". That ratio would be 1.48/1 (DAL/NWA) For total revenue the ratio would be 19.2/12.5=1.53/1.(advantage DAL) For debt. it would be 9/7.1=1.26/1(advantage DAL) For latest losses it would be 274/191=1.43 (operating losses) (advantage DAL) For cash it would be 3.6/3.2=1.125/1 (advantage NWA)

 

[Bdfg1]

Part of the equation is revenue, the other part is debt, which Delta has more of....


Delta: $9 billion debt



Northwest: $7.1 billion debt

Come on! We all know that the delta debt is just a "paper" debt. :laugh:

Well at least 6.7 ba ba BILLION of it.

See ya!

 

[~~~^~~~]

Nevermind... .

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Previous commuters flooding a desireable base or piece of equipment will create bad feelings on one side and a windfall for the other.

Excellent point. Seems like every time I fly JFK-DTW, ATL-DTW, or ATL-MSP we have a Delta guy riding the jumpseat or sitting in the back. How good of you to look after our best interests and seek to prevent those guys from flooding to "our" bases and affecting "our" quality of life. We absolutely need to fence those guys off of bidding DTW and MSP.

It works both ways, chief, and there's far more Delta guys itching to bid away from ATL and into the Heartland than you care to admit.

 

[Superpilot92]

Nevermind... .

The latest email we should have all gotten by now is a big step forward IMHO. Finally we have something signed by both Stevens and Moak presenting info together. Hopefully thats how it is from now on, that way there is no question what each sides stance is. Cheers :beer:

 

[ThisistheDream]

I know of 3 DAL junior pilots on the 767, 2 in JFK and 1 in ATL that commute from MSP that would gladly trade the 767 line holder life style for a MSP dc-9 reserve schedule. QOL is more important than what plane you fly or what airline fly for

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Not that I want to start this debate, but you know of three. I can tell you of at least 20 guys that I know personally that are NWA drivers that live in ATL metro. Not to mention the 100's of pilots and FA's that live in FL and DFW that would like a shorter commute. You and I both know that there will be a greater movement to the Southern bases than to the Northern ones.The majority of DAL guys live in or near their bases(except NYC), is that really the case at NWA?
In reality it will not matter in five years. If there are fences it may take longer to realize the movement, but the fact remains that DTW and MSP DC-9 will probably remain the junior pieces of equipment no matter which way you slice this.
I myself will not bid MSP or DTW, unless it makes a commute from DFW very easy. From my friends who do it, it is about at difficult as DFW-ATL.

 

[Superpilot92]

Not that I want to start this debate, but you know of three. I can tell you of at least 20 guys that I know personally that are NWA drivers that live in ATL metro. Not to mention the 100's of pilots and FA's that live in FL and DFW that would like a shorter commute. You and I both know that there will be a greater movement to the Southern bases than to the Northern ones.The majority of DAL guys live in or near their bases(except NYC), is that really the case at NWA?
In reality it will not matter in five years. If there are fences it may take longer to realize the movement, but the fact remains that DTW and MSP DC-9 will probably remain the junior pieces of equipment no matter which way you slice this.
I myself will not bid MSP or DTW, unless it makes a commute from DFW very easy. From my friends who do it, it is about at difficult as DFW-ATL.

Dallas to MEM would be quick and easy. Also if some of the DC9s are moved to DAL bases wouldnt this argument be pointless? Or any of the NWA equipment for that matter. You guys act like planes arent going to get moved around thus moving people around the system whether you want to or not. DAL planes are sure to see NWA bases also.

 

[Speedbird34]

I know of 3 DAL junior pilots on the 767, 2 in JFK and 1 in ATL that commute from MSP that would gladly trade the 767 line holder life style for a MSP dc-9 reserve schedule. QOL is more important than what plane you fly or what airline fly for

I AM A JUNIOR DELTA PILOT ON THE 767ER LIVING IN MSP AND BASED AT JFK. I WOULD NOT ACCEPT A POSITION AS A RESERVE DC9 PILOT IN MSP AND WOULD IN FACT CONSIDER LEAVING DELTA IF THAT WAS MY ONLY OPTION.
THE NEW YORK FLYING AND CREWS ARE AWESOME! I AM PLANNING ON MOVING TO THE NEW YORK AREA.
I JUST POLITELY TELL THE NORTHWEST PILOTS I HAVE NO ISSUES WITH THE MERGER BEING RESIDENT IN MSP. THAT WAY I COMMUTE IN PEACE. SO FAR THE NORTHWEST PEOPLE HAVE BEING DECENT TO ME AND I AM HAPPY TO SEE THEM GET PAY RAISES AND BETTER BENEFITS. I BELIEVE THAT THE EMPLOYEES OF THE NEW DELTA TO THE LAST MAN SHOULD BE HAPPY TO BE WITH DELTA OR THE MERGER IS NOT WORTHY OF ANY SUPPORT.
I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN ANY REASON TO BE HAPPY ABOUT THE MERGER. LOA19 IF I COULD HAVE VOTED I WOULD VOTE NO. THE NEW JOINT CONTRACT I HOPE IS BETTER. I BELIEVE WITHOUT A MERGER WE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN SOMETHING BETTER THAN THE CRAP LOA19 WHICH ONLY GIVES US 17%

The most junior Delta pilot today is happy to work for us. We hope it stays the same after the merger for everyone.

WE CAN THEN SAY THIS HAS WORKED OUT OKEY!

 

[737 Pylt]

Come on! We all know that the delta debt is just a "paper" debt. :laugh:

Well at least 6.7 ba ba BILLION of it.

See ya!

Hi Steven:

Its no more of a paper loss than your calling your furlough, RETIREMENT!:laugh:

I was dead set on keeping ALPA on the property. That is until you began to chime in. Thanks for changing my mind and voting ALPA out. You deserve a medal.

​

Never said I take it for granted. As you pointed out I'm "training PSA pilots since I'm a J4J Capt." Looks like I'm taking advantage of it.

​

Who cares about these bids? All I know is I'll have a sweet line once I come over via J4J. Don't like it TUFF!

​

See ya!

737

 

[737 Pylt]

Come on! We all know that the delta debt is just a "paper" debt. :laugh:

Well at least 6.7 ba ba BILLION of it.

See ya!

Hi Steven:

Its no more of a paper loss than your calling your furlough, RETIREMENT!:laugh:

I was dead set on keeping ALPA on the property. That is until you began to chime in. Thanks for changing my mind and voting ALPA out. You deserve a medal.

​

Never said I take it for granted. As you pointed out I'm "training PSA pilots since I'm a J4J Capt." Looks like I'm taking advantage of it.

​

Who cares about these bids? All I know is I'll have a sweet line once I come over via J4J. Don't like it TUFF!

​

See ya!

737

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Oh no, there will be a lot of your planes moved around to our bases. DAL sees your domestic feed as dead. They are buying you for the Firth Freedom rights in the Far East. You domestic feed will be used to patch up holes in our system. What buying you allows our route guys to do is this. It allows them to go ahead with the five/ten year plan today. They will have the airframes to do the lift now, and not add to the debt. NWA's debt is cheap for what they are getting. Now granted your airframes will be replaced over time, but it is a good fix for the near term. We will not destroy MSP, DTW or MEM, but rather shift RJ's and narrow body lift around to fill in the gaps.
I see the number of RJ's in NYC, and ATL decreasing, but remember this. There is only so much DAL can bring to ATL. We are basically maxed out on ramp space as is. So in essence your argument holds some water, but not all that you think. Now LAX, that is a different story all together. My bet is to see a decent amount of expansion out there in the next few years. Both in to Mexico, the Western US, the far East and to the Southern Pacific. It is DAL's intent to remake that hub. When those guys spoke to us over a year ago they stated that there were big plans out there, but we just did not have the lift or lift on order to do it in the near term. Now with this merger we do.
You will probably see 767's in MSP and DTW, and 330 and 744's in LAX, ATL and NYC within six months of DCC. I would expect a sizable aircraft order shortly after this is all finalized, but it truly depends on the credit market. If DAL's widely held rating is any indication, the market is beginning to realize that this airline will have some serious teeth. People are buying in to DAL now that this plan is seeing the light of day. Many believe that in the next few years our value will rise. I agree with that. If anyone has a chance to weather this economic storm it is DAL/NWA.

 

[737 Pylt]

Come on! We all know that the delta debt is just a "paper" debt. :laugh:

Well at least 6.7 ba ba BILLION of it.

See ya!

Hi Steven.
Its the same thing as you calling your furluogh, retirement!:laugh:

Don't worry though Steven, some day you might be able to get that long sought after education.
Til then, keep on J4J'ing!
Sing it Steven, sing it loud......
S - S - S - S - Staple!

I was dead set on keeping ALPA on the property. That is until you began to chime in. Thanks for changing my mind and voting ALPA out. You deserve a medal.

Never said I take it for granted. As you pointed out I'm "training PSA pilots since I'm a J4J Capt." Looks like I'm taking advantage of it.

Click here for the reason Steven is a liar regarding his J4J status!​

See ya.

737

BTW, did you ever get your letterman ring back from Marty?

 

[Tanker Clown]

737, too bad you guys can't post a "paper" profit. When's the next round of concessions?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And the VI (village idiot) has finally arrived.

 

[JAM-BRO]

It is funny to hear a junior guy thinks he deserves and is entitled to the world... To say that you would leave DAL if you have to fly a DC9 is disingenuous at best. Are you a pilot? Do you REALLY like flying? Your comments show differently....

I AM A JUNIOR DELTA PILOT ON THE 767ER LIVING IN MSP AND BASED AT JFK. I WOULD NOT ACCEPT A POSITION AS A RESERVE DC9 PILOT IN MSP AND WOULD IN FACT CONSIDER LEAVING DELTA IF THAT WAS MY ONLY OPTION.
THE NEW YORK FLYING AND CREWS ARE AWESOME! I AM PLANNING ON MOVING TO THE NEW YORK AREA.
I JUST POLITELY TELL THE NORTHWEST PILOTS I HAVE NO ISSUES WITH THE MERGER BEING RESIDENT IN MSP. THAT WAY I COMMUTE IN PEACE. SO FAR THE NORTHWEST PEOPLE HAVE BEING DECENT TO ME AND I AM HAPPY TO SEE THEM GET PAY RAISES AND BETTER BENEFITS. I BELIEVE THAT THE EMPLOYEES OF THE NEW DELTA TO THE LAST MAN SHOULD BE HAPPY TO BE WITH DELTA OR THE MERGER IS NOT WORTHY OF ANY SUPPORT.
I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN ANY REASON TO BE HAPPY ABOUT THE MERGER. LOA19 IF I COULD HAVE VOTED I WOULD VOTE NO. THE NEW JOINT CONTRACT I HOPE IS BETTER. I BELIEVE WITHOUT A MERGER WE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN SOMETHING BETTER THAN THE CRAP LOA19 WHICH ONLY GIVES US 17%

The most junior Delta pilot today is happy to work for us. We hope it stays the same after the merger for everyone.

WE CAN THEN SAY THIS HAS WORKED OUT OKEY!

 

[JAM-BRO]

It is funny to hear how a junior guy think he deserves and is entitled to the world... To say that you would leave DAL if you have to fly a DC9 is disingenuous at best. Are you a pilot? Do you REALLY like flying planes? Your comments show different..

I AM A JUNIOR DELTA PILOT ON THE 767ER LIVING IN MSP AND BASED AT JFK. I WOULD NOT ACCEPT A POSITION AS A RESERVE DC9 PILOT IN MSP AND WOULD IN FACT CONSIDER LEAVING DELTA IF THAT WAS MY ONLY OPTION.
THE NEW YORK FLYING AND CREWS ARE AWESOME! I AM PLANNING ON MOVING TO THE NEW YORK AREA.
I JUST POLITELY TELL THE NORTHWEST PILOTS I HAVE NO ISSUES WITH THE MERGER BEING RESIDENT IN MSP. THAT WAY I COMMUTE IN PEACE. SO FAR THE NORTHWEST PEOPLE HAVE BEING DECENT TO ME AND I AM HAPPY TO SEE THEM GET PAY RAISES AND BETTER BENEFITS. I BELIEVE THAT THE EMPLOYEES OF THE NEW DELTA TO THE LAST MAN SHOULD BE HAPPY TO BE WITH DELTA OR THE MERGER IS NOT WORTHY OF ANY SUPPORT.
I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT SEEN ANY REASON TO BE HAPPY ABOUT THE MERGER. LOA19 IF I COULD HAVE VOTED I WOULD VOTE NO. THE NEW JOINT CONTRACT I HOPE IS BETTER. I BELIEVE WITHOUT A MERGER WE WOULD HAVE GOTTEN SOMETHING BETTER THAN THE CRAP LOA19 WHICH ONLY GIVES US 17%

The most junior Delta pilot today is happy to work for us. We hope it stays the same after the merger for everyone.

WE CAN THEN SAY THIS HAS WORKED OUT OKEY!