For All You FLOPS BJ Pilots, a little memory lane action

[Voice Of Reason]

This Msg is Blocked because Skeeza is on Your Ignore List

What I love most about Skeeza's posts, is not that they are blocked (on ignore), but that they bump this thread back to its rightful place at the top for all to see. Thanks SKEEZA!

 

[skanza]

^^has head in sand where it's comfortable^^

That would be skanza not skeeza.
Go ahead and block me VOR. But you can't get a whole lot of "reason" for your voice looking through that narrow Burka of yours, can you? Wouldn't want to hear a different point of view now would we...

 

[B19 Flyer]

That would be skanza not skeeza.
Go ahead and block me VOR. But you can't get a whole lot of "reason" for your voice looking through that narrow Burka of yours, can you? Wouldn't want to hear a different point of view now would we...

They've blocked me for years, it doesn't stop my entertainment!

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You're Fired!

 

[993_Pilot]

They've blocked me for years, it doesn't stop my entertainment!

It is really sad that you feel the need stir up $hit here in order to have fun. I had more respect for you when I though that you were BT, now, nothing but disgust.

 

[B19 Flyer]

It is really sad that you feel the need stir up $hit here in order to have fun. I had more respect for you when I though that you were BT, now, nothing but disgust.

Am I stirring it up or simply pointing out that there are two sides to the issue?

There are more than one opinion when it comes to unions, and history has shown that unions have not been kind to the industry or the brethren that they say the protect.

 

[993_Pilot]

Am I stirring it up or simply pointing out that there are two sides to the issue?...

You're stirring it up. You post in threads that are discussing companies (in fact, a whole section of the industry) that you have no stake in. Why don't you get your kicks somewhere else and go piss in your own backyard?

 

[fischman]

Am I stirring it up or simply pointing out that there are two sides to the issue?

There are more than one opinion when it comes to unions, and history has shown that unions have not been kind to the industry or the brethren that they say the protect.

He's right. There are 2 sides to every story.

The right way, and his way.

 

[skanza]

He's right. There are 2 sides to every story.

The right way, and his way.

Yes, he's right. But not how you've described it. There's the right way as you see it, which is your opinion, and there's his way which is his opinion. You fail to recognize that these are opinions and just because something is your opinion, doesn't make it right (same with his). What matters is what it actually right for the company - regardless of one's opinion. But I know, its hard for your narcissism to let go and become rational...

 

[fischman]

Lighten up Francis.

It's called sarcasm.

 

[brokeflyer]

Yes, he's right. But not how you've described it. There's the right way as you see it, which is your opinion, and there's his way which is his opinion. You fail to recognize that these are opinions and just because something is your opinion, doesn't make it right (same with his). What matters is what it actually right for the company - regardless of one's opinion. But I know, its hard for your narcissism to let go and become rational...

dude you need to go get yourself laid....it'll do ya a lotta good.

 

[B19 Flyer]

He's right. There are 2 sides to every story.

The right way, and his way.

No.. if unions dealt with companies in a reasonable manner it might be a different story, but they don't. They negotiate using basic blackmail as a tool (threatening to shut the company down and destroying the entity for everybody) and when the economy changes they persist in the process by inaction. (causing the company to shut down and ruin the entity for everybody).

There are two sides of the story, one side (the union side) IS a lot more radical than the other side is.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You're stirring it up. You post in threads that are discussing companies (in fact, a whole section of the industry) that you have no stake in. Why don't you get your kicks somewhere else and go piss in your own backyard?

While I no longer have an active place in the industry, I've invested a lot more heartache and effort into it than the average frac pilot by my efforts during the rulemaking process. I would like to see the efforts of the working group I participated in succeed rather than fail, and in my opinion unions are going to destroy the intent of the business model. You haven't a clue as to the effort that went into making the fractional world into what it is today.

As I've repeatedly stated, pilots like you that work off the fruit of labor others have invested into it have no right to complain about what others do until you walk a mile of management in thier shoes to see just how difficult it is.

Get off the flight deck and begin fixing the problems as a manager rather than becoming a number within the hoard of a union in an attempt to make a difference.

Until you have the courage to make the effort yourself, don't tell me what backyard I can do my business in.

 

[993_Pilot]

B19, You have no clue.

While I no longer have an active place in the industry, I've invested a lot more heartache and effort into it than the average frac pilot by my efforts during the rulemaking process. I would like to see the efforts of the working group I participated in succeed rather than fail, and in my opinion unions are going to destroy the intent of the business model. You haven't a clue as to the effort that went into making the fractional world into what it is today.

As I've repeatedly stated, pilots like you that work off the fruit of labor others have invested into it have no right to complain about what others do until you walk a mile of management in thier shoes to see just how difficult it is.

Get off the flight deck and begin fixing the problems as a manager rather than becoming a number within the hoard of a union in an attempt to make a difference.

Until you have the courage to make the effort yourself, don't tell me what backyard I can do my business in.

You have no clue as to my previous experience.

FYI, I have a business degree and I spent several years as the general manager for a 135 operation. I have gone through the entire 135 process from conception to operational approval, including writing Training & Operations manuals from scratch, getting MEL's and maintenance programs approved, and flying proving runs. I have written business plans and budgets and run the day-to-day operations too. I have also been involved my the FAA during a MEL review/revision process, so don't tell me that I don't have the courage to be a manager. I have walked a mile in your shoes, but I choose not to at this point in my life. What keeps me from doing it again? . . . Besides all the back-biting and politicing in an office, I have no desire to move to Cleveland. . . It is as simple as that!

I don't think anyone here would argue that unions make it harder for a company to operate quickly, but the whole reason for there is a union on property in the first place, is because management consistently fails to treat their pilots fairly. Some Flops pilots have seen up to five different management teams (if you include the Travel Air management), and every one has made promises that they failed to live up to. Hopefully, Kenn Ricci will live up to what he says this time. . . if he doesn't sell us off and/or if HIG keeps him around long enough, that is.

You can't argue. . . Management has caused a lot more companies to fail than any union, by far. In fact, the whole current state of the world economy today is mainly due to decisions made by managers! When managers have proven that they can be trusted to act in the best interest of the entire company and treat their employee fairly, I might re-consider my stand. Until that day, I will continue to support my union, and I suggest that others do the same !!!

 

[skanza]

dude you need to go get yourself laid....it'll do ya a lotta good.

ok--meet me by the dumpster.

 

[brokeflyer]

please dont make sexual advances towards me on this board.

 

[skanza]

What is the purpose of this thread again?
To share operation-inhibiting ideas with other arm-crossing-breath-holding-union children? Just wondering...

 

[brokeflyer]

What is the purpose of this thread again?
To share operation-inhibiting ideas with other arm-crossing-breath-holding-union children? Just wondering...

no, i think it was sharing safety related issues geard toward preventing accidents and FAR violations.

remember, when omething goes wrong, it's the captain and fo's ass on the line. Not the guy telling you to go fly.

you'll learn this stuff when you become a captain......someday kid.

 

[B19 Flyer]

no, i think it was sharing safety related issues geard toward preventing accidents and FAR violations.

remember, when omething goes wrong, it's the captain and fo's ass on the line. Not the guy telling you to go fly.

you'll learn this stuff when you become a captain......someday kid.

Wrong, this thread began as a list on how to preflight airplanes using methods designed to slow down company operations by noting insignifcant items that would not normally be written up.

Thankfully, the courts have recently caught up with this kind of behavior and are holding unions and individual union members accountable for items like these and "sick outs".

Stuff like this on public message boards is great because it provides evidence in the case of lawsuits and the union has a real tough time explaining it when the injunction is filed.

When the items on this list trend out of line with previous history, it provides the exact supporting documentation needed.

One last thought... it's not just the pilot and f/o flying, it's the entire company. All the pieces need to work for a safe flight from maintenance to fuel to ground service and everything else that happens. Don't be a prima dona because you are a pilot. If the fueler doesn't fuel the airplane, you ain't going anywhere pal..

 

[fischman]

Wrong, this thread began as a list on how to preflight airplanes using methods designed to slow down company operations by noting insignificant items that would not normally be written up. Wrong. This is a thread of professionals sharing safety tips.

Thankfully, the courts have recently caught up with this kind of behavior and are holding unions and individual union members accountable for items like these and "sick outs". Really? Courts have found exchanging safety information illegal??? I missed that.

Stuff like this on public message boards is great because it provides evidence in the case of lawsuits and the union has a real tough time explaining it when the injunction is filed.

When the items on this list trend out of line with previous history, it provides the exact supporting documentation needed.

One last thought... it's not just the pilot and f/o flying, it's the entire company. Bull! So does the entire company DIE because one of these items in a preflight check were missed? No!!! The crew and pax are the only ones with their lives in jeopardy if the appropriate preflight inspection isn't completed. All the pieces need to work for a safe flight from maintenance to fuel to ground service and everything else that happens. Don't be a prima dona because you are a pilot. If the fueler doesn't fuel the airplane, you ain't going anywhere pal..

Your threats of lawsuits against doing a proper preflight inspection is EXACTLY why there are unions like IBT1108 and NJASAP. Keep up the threats. It solidifies my arguments.

 

[Fozzy]

How do you pump fuel again? My car has been high an dry since I pulled it off the lot.
And could someone teach me how to file a flight plan?

 

[skanza]

no, i think it was sharing safety related issues geard toward preventing accidents and FAR violations.

remember, when omething goes wrong, it's the captain and fo's ass on the line. Not the guy telling you to go fly.

you'll learn this stuff when you become a captain......someday kid.

Then: 1. Why are these threads started by pro-union individuals? 2. Why at times when union negotiations are going bad? 3. And why the unmistakable undertone of "this is how we can break airplanes" ?
It seems pretty obvious even to the outsider that is neither pro- nor anti-union that these "preflight" lists are formed to stall the operation and not as a way to share safety information...as you claim.
Another proof is that no one involved in the formation of these lists will share thier identity. They choose to do it while hiding behind a silly username on a message board. If it's so innocent and you want to promote safety, then send an email to all of Beechjet crews with your list! Do it! I know you won't and that's the proof.

 

[brokeflyer]

I can't....I dont fly a beechjet. Thanks to that list I feel confident that I could a good pre-flight.

Dont matter what you think, if it's broke then it's broke. There is nothing on that list that is destructive.

Get a grip on reality and leave the big decsions to the Capt.

 

[dime line]

Then: 1. Why are these threads started by pro-union individuals? 2. Why at times when union negotiations are going bad? 3. And why the unmistakable undertone of "this is how we can break airplanes" ?
It seems pretty obvious even to the outsider that is neither pro- nor anti-union that these "preflight" lists are formed to stall the operation and not as a way to share safety information...as you claim.
Another proof is that no one involved in the formation of these lists will share thier identity. They choose to do it while hiding behind a silly username on a message board. If it's so innocent and you want to promote safety, then send an email to all of Beechjet crews with your list! Do it! I know you won't and that's the proof.

Keep living in fairy land.

 

[skanza]

I can't....I dont fly a beechjet. Thanks to that list I feel confident that I could a good pre-flight. So you get your training from the internet? Nice, Capt.

Dont matter what you think, if it's broke then it's broke. I agree, if it's broke then it's broke. But that's not my point. There is nothing on that list that is destructive. Well that's debatable, but the timing of when one should perform these "safe" preflights is the issue; e.g. -union-pilot not happy with management. -airplane is at a no-mx airport. -

Get a grip on reality and leave the big decsions to the Capt.

You just don't get it. Read my post again. Creating lists to purposely break an aircraft under the disguise of "safety first" is under-handed, crooked and non-professional. Yes, I'm accusing you people of that.
Again with the proof:
Why only create/distribute the list during negotiation struggles?
Why not email it to all the BJ crews from your company email (if safety is your goal)?
These questions cannot be answered with selling yourself out.

 

[skanza]

Keep living in fairy land.

Bayl, that doesn't even make any sense. You obviously didn't read/comprehend the text of my post.

fool

 

[CA1900]

You just don't get it. Read my post again. Creating lists to purposely break an aircraft under the disguise of "safety first" is under-handed, crooked and non-professional. Yes, I'm accusing you people of that.

I just downed a NetJets plane last week for a minor item, at an airport without our maintenance personnel. A strip of emergency exit lights was burned out, and the MEL doesn't give us relief from a whole strip being out. I suppose we could have just ignored it; I mean, after all, what are the odds we'll really need them?

I didn't do it because we're in contract negotiations -- we aren't.

I didn't do it to screw our share owner -- quite the opposite.

I wrote it up because it was broken, and was a required piece of equipment to operate the airplane safely.

Are you suggesting a less-than-thorough preflight, contract negotiations or not?

 

[brokeflyer]

You just don't get it. Read my post again. Creating lists to purposely break an aircraft under the disguise of "safety first" is under-handed, crooked and non-professional. Yes, I'm accusing you people of that.
Again with the proof:
Why only create/distribute the list during negotiation struggles?
Why not email it to all the BJ crews from your company email (if safety is your goal)?
These questions cannot be answered with selling yourself out.

Well you can have your opinion. We'll use our facts. Facts are, if the plane is broke then it is broke, regardless of where or when or by who. If it's broke at the service center, then it's broke at the service center. If it's broke in desertedville, Pa, then that is where it's broke.

We can debate this all day long, but the bottom line is the PIC decides if it's safe, not your opinion.

Ill be glad to go fly a plane with a "questionable" mx problem soon as you walk down to the FAA office in DC and trim just a little bit of fat off the regs.

Until then, we'll continue to do things the safe way.

 

[brokeflyer]

I just downed a NetJets plane last week for a minor item, at an airport without our maintenance personnel. A strip of emergency exit lights was burned out, and the MEL doesn't give us relief from a whole strip being out. I suppose we could have just ignored it; I mean, after all, what are the odds we'll really need them?

I didn't do it because we're in contract negotiations -- we aren't.

I didn't do it to screw our share owner -- quite the opposite.

I wrote it up because it was broken, and was a required piece of equipment to operate the airplane safely.

Are you suggesting a less-than-thorough preflight, contract negotiations or not?

That was the correct thing to do, you need to treat EVERY flight as if the faa is gonna ramp check you.

 

[FR8DOG777]

This just in

Michael $hitfinger to be named CEO of Signature flight support FBO network. May god have mercy on their souls. I am sure he will fix the cost side of things real good over there.