For All You FLOPS BJ Pilots, a little memory lane action

[fischman]

Fischman, how long do you think it will be before the ripple affect occurs? It already has. Our owner flying is down significantly. Hopefully Mx will use the time to fix the interiors of the airplanes to help maintain the standard our owners have come to expect. I say it's within the year before YOUR union is pressed to furlough pilots. The Union doesn't furlough pilots. The company does.

My question to you is, when it DOES happen, is your union going to do the right thing to preserve jobs or are the furloughs going to happen to protect the industry leading pay and benefits your union demands? The Union and company operate under a contract BOTH parties agreed to. Economic downturns are dealt with IAW the CBA. It is not the Union's responsibility to preserve jobs. It is the Company's. Thankfully NetJets Management has been proactive and in the foreseeable future, we will be alright.

How strong will that independent union be when the times really get tough? We aren't even close to "really tough." The strength in the Union is with the pilots. It will be up to them as the direction the leadership will take, as it always has been.

See how easy it is to answer questions? Now it is your turn.

What company do you work for?

Why are you afraid to tell me?

Are you ashamed of your past?

What comes after the number 1?

ARE YOU CAPABLE OF ACTUALLY ANSWERING A QUESTION?

 

[OldCrow]

Brace,brace,brace!!!

B19, if my time is coming...so is yours

 

[B19 Flyer]

See how easy it is to answer questions? Now it is your turn.

What company do you work for?

Why are you afraid to tell me?

Are you ashamed of your past?

What comes after the number 1?

ARE YOU CAPABLE OF ACTUALLY ANSWERING A QUESTION?

Of course, but are you actually capable of reading an answer (because I've already answered this and I'm not going to do it again)?

So, when the union doesn't protect their pilots when NJ begins the furlough process, who is going to do it? You fischman?

 

[fischman]

Of course, but are you actually capable of reading an answer (because I've already answered this and I'm not going to do it again)?

So, when the union doesn't protect their pilots when NJ begins the furlough process, who is going to do it? That's not what I said. You fischman? Yes. I will protect our pilots as I always have. Unlike you.

I have read through all of your posts on FI.com. You have not answered a single question on these boards. Ever. You can't do it "again" if you never did it once.

Just try 1. I think you'll find it isn't as hard as you think. We'll try an easy one okay? (At least I think it is easy. You might find it more difficult).

What comes after the number 1?

I'll even help you out. If you go to a website called www.google.com you can find the answer.

Can you answer a single question?

 

[B19 Flyer]

I have read through all of your posts on FI.com. You have not answered a single question on these boards. Ever. You can't do it "again" if you never did it once.

Just try 1. I think you'll find it isn't as hard as you think. We'll try an easy one okay? (At least I think it is easy. You might find it more difficult).

What comes after the number 1?

I'll even help you out. If you go to a website called www.google.com you can find the answer.

Can you answer a single question?

fischman...

One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do.

Two can be as bad as one, it's the loneliest number since the number one. :laugh:

Now.. can you say the words "furlough" and "contract concession"? Because it won't be long before your union will be facing them. The amount of furloughed pilots will be in direct proportion to how deep and quickly the contract concessions occur. Can your union react quickly enough to avoid furloughs by offering concessions to "spread the pain" amongst all your brethren and save jobs?

 

[fischman]

fischman...

One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do.

Two can be as bad as one, it's the loneliest number since the number one. :laugh:

Now.. can you say the words "furlough" and "contract concession"? Because it won't be long before your union will be facing them. The amount of furloughed pilots will be in direct proportion to how deep and quickly the contract concessions occur. Can your union react quickly enough to avoid furloughs by offering concessions to "spread the pain" amongst all your brethren and save jobs?

Hmmm.... I think that is an answer. He did use the number 2. Which is a correct answer B19. Good for you! Another answer is 1,000,000 or 3 or 666 (You're familiar with that one aren't you?) :nuts: . They all come after the number 1. I am giving you infinate possibilities of correct numbers.


As to the rest, that is called seniority. If the company needs to furlough, junior guy goes first. That's how the CBA works.

 

[brokeflyer]

Having a union has nothing to do with a furlough, ive said that before. If there was no union, the same guys would get it. Without a union, the company would have to furlough a lot sooner. Management would be totally killing the company and they would have to blame someone for it. That's the whole reason for having a union, to keep managemnt from destroying the company. Otherwise they would be illegal. So they would furlough the pilots, cause they can. Then drive home in their BMW.

That is undisputable.....sorry.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Having a union has nothing to do with a furlough, ive said that before. If there was no union, the same guys would get it. Without a union, the company would have to furlough a lot sooner. Management would be totally killing the company and they would have to blame someone for it. That's the whole reason for having a union, to keep managemnt from destroying the company. Otherwise they would be illegal. So they would furlough the pilots, cause they can. Then drive home in their BMW.

That is undisputable.....sorry.

Not true. It's well known that DAL was able to stave off bankrupty the longest of any legacy carrier because the company was the least unionized major and was able to adjust easier to the industry changes.

In the end, they still got burned by a union that didn't see the value in keeping the company out of bankruptcy.

 

[brokeflyer]

again, like i said, management is the problem there. They had to file for bankruptcy protection after management fried the company so thin you could slide it under a vault door. The union had to come in to protect the pilots.

that is a fact and it is undisputable.....sorry.


next?

 

[fischman]

Not true. It's well known that DAL was able to stave off bankruptcy the longest of any legacy carrier because the company was the least unionized major and was able to adjust easier to the industry changes.

In the end, they still got burned by a union that didn't see the value in keeping the company out of bankruptcy.

When was the last time American declared bankruptcy?

 

[993_Pilot]

The real problems with the airlines, is their business model. Management at most majors won't change it, so they falter and occasionally fail. SWA uses a different model, and they have been very successful because of it. It doesn't mean that they are immune from the economy (or other market forces), but they are still in much better shape than most.

 

[B19 Flyer]

When was the last time American declared bankruptcy?

American was on the courthouse stairs when the union (APA) decided in the eleventh hour it was in their best interest to decide their own fate rather than have the bankrupcty judge do it for them. DAL wasn't even close to filing for another 18 months, and it could have been avoided even then had DALPA responded in a timely manner.

 

[B19 Flyer]

The real problems with the airlines, is their business model. Management at most majors won't change it, so they falter and occasionally fail. SWA uses a different model, and they have been very successful because of it. It doesn't mean that they are immune from the economy (or other market forces), but they are still in much better shape than most.

Southwest can't compete with legacy carriers and they don't try to. They smartly stay within their niche. They only fly domestic with a single fleet type to CAT I mins. Yes, a smart and profitable business model.

International legacy carriers fly to CAT 3 (incurring addtional training, maintenance and crew costs) using multiple fleet types to ICAO standards worldwide. They have 75 years worth of retirement and pensions to deal with.

The Jetblue/SWA model can't be compared. Apples and oranges.

Long term fall back of the frac model is yet to be tested, but for the first time the current FAA 91 frac requirements and costs are coming into play. Fracs require sales to expand, they can't rely only on user fees. If the sales level at NJ pulls down, and these companies with high level executives continue to be criticized as the auto execs and CEO pay have recently been, there will be a ripple that will drill down and into the "growth" core of the model that NJ has enjoyed unlimited growth with that supports the "industry leading contract."

 

[fischman]

American was on the courthouse stairs when the union (APA) decided in the eleventh hour it was in their best interest to decide their own fate rather than have the bankruptcy judge do it for them. DAL wasn't even close to filing for another 18 months, and it could have been avoided even then had DALPA responded in a timely manner.

Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't get an ANSWER. When was the last time American declared bankruptcy?


(I went ahead and fixed all your spelling errors for you. You're welcome).

 

[993_Pilot]

Southwest can't compete with legacy carriers and they don't try to. They smartly stay within their niche. They only fly domestic with a single fleet type to CAT I mins. Yes, a smart and profitable business model.

International legacy carriers fly to CAT 3 (incurring addtional training, maintenance and crew costs) using multiple fleet types to ICAO standards worldwide. They have 75 years worth of retirement and pensions to deal with.

The Jetblue/SWA model can't be compared. Apples and oranges.

Long term fall back of the frac model is yet to be tested, but for the first time the current FAA 91 frac requirements and costs are coming into play. Fracs require sales to expand, they can't rely only on user fees. If the sales level at NJ pulls down, and these companies with high level executives continue to be criticized as the auto execs and CEO pay have recently been, there will be a ripple that will drill down and into the "growth" core of the model that NJ has enjoyed unlimited growth with that supports the "industry leading contract."

My point is that SWA has carved out a profitable niche for themselves, instead of copying the legacy carriers business model. If a fractional's business model depends on continued growth for profitability, then it is doomed to fail too, although I'm sure you'll blame that on the unions. Every market reaches maturity at some point (like now), and unless they adapt their business model to find profit elsewhere, it will fail. Period. Why is it that the main way that managers try to adapt, is cut expenses. . . usually by cutting payroll? Try raising your prices to something above what the service actually costs to provide, then differentiate yourself from the competition by providing better service. Of course that is tough to do with disgruntled employees !

 

[brokeflyer]

My point is that SWA has carved out a profitable niche for themselves, instead of copying the legacy carriers business model. If a fractional's business model depends on continued growth for profitability, then it is doomed to fail too, although I'm sure you'll blame that on the unions. Every market reaches maturity at some point (like now), and unless they adapt their business model to find profit elsewhere, it will fail. Period. Why is it that the main way that managers try to adapt, is cut expenses. . . usually by cutting payroll? Try raising your prices to something above what the service actually costs to provide, then differentiate yourself from the competition by providing better service. Of course that is tough to do with disgruntled employees !

It makes it impossible because of management sucking all the profits from the company. I heard somewhere that the CEO of delta's paycheck was MORE than what the whole company took in for profit!!!!OMFG.

Ya can't raise prices or alter your business because management needs to take that money for themselves......that is undisputed fact. Sorry.

 

[dime line]

It makes it impossible because of management sucking all the profits from the company.

I heard somewhere that the CEO of delta's paycheck was MORE than what the whole company took in for profit!!!!OMFG.

Ya can't raise prices or alter your business because management needs to take that money for themselves......that is undisputed fact. Sorry.

No that was Tilton at United in 2006, he took in a cool 40mil that year and the company took in a cool 25mil

 

[brokeflyer]

thanks for the correction....

40mil?.......no wonder we need unions.

40mil?......and they have guys on furlough, or making crap wages.

 

[B19 Flyer]

No that was Tilton at United in 2006, he took in a cool 40mil that year and the company took in a cool 25mil

Maybe there is some irony that a heavily unionized carrier like United had a CEO that took 40 million in 2006 while the CEO of a lightly unionized carrier in Atlanta (DAL) took a pay cut from his 2005 salary of $500,000 and didn't accept his final 3 months pay of $125,000.

 

[fischman]

Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't get an ANSWER. When was the last time American declared bankruptcy?


(I went ahead and fixed all your spelling errors for you. You're welcome).

What do you know? No answer. Where's the lie B19?