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For All You FLOPS BJ Pilots, a little memory lane action

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Dude you are way out there

Ummm... So. There's absolutly no way there can be happy emplyees or a successful company without a union? And management is always wrong and always against the employee? Is that that basis of what you're saying?
If you think that, you're unbelieveable but a good example of one who's stuck on a dogmatic principle of the way things should be and suffers from the inherent limitations of this narrow way of thinking. Kinda like religion, but I digress...
Where as, I have admitted that the need for a union has existed and may still in some instances, but you folks have never entertained an idea other that a union.
Typical.

WTF over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude are you drunk when you sit down your computer???? What you write is abstract, disconnected and irrelevant. And dude learn how to use you spell check.


“without a union? There's absolutly no way there can be happy emplyees or a successful company”

I have not seen anyone use absolutes such as never, not possible, or no way can a company operate without a Union on this or any board. We have been speaking of Flight Options and the history that has transpired at our company not some arbitrary, hypothetical, in a perfect world company. What we have learned is that a Union is essential at Options. We have learned from experience, by the abuses that have been laid on us, by the incompetent management that occupied top management levels until recently, and still permeates middle management. In a perfect world I don’t believe any of us would choose Union over non Union. Options has proven to us that we do not live in that perfect world and we need protections from these imperfect management we are stuck with.


“And management is always wrong and always against the employee? Is that that basis of what you're saying?”

The management of Options for the past 5 years has been an abstract failure. When every other Fractional has grown by double digits, we have shrunk by 50%, this can only be attributed to pi$$ poor incompetent management. You want to blame the Union for what ails Options ignoring the fact that its management that’s responsible for every problem we have. Has management had a draconian predisposition toward abusing our pilots? Yes they have. They have repeatedly exhibited it over the past 3 years through productivity reviews, through reliability reviews, through repeated disciplinary meetings designed to intimidate pilots into submission, through firing pilots, 68 at one time, in order to try and scare the remaining the pilots into submission. So yes that is what I’m saying. Options upper management exercised a systematic campaign of abuse of our pilots and the gutless middle managers we still have tolerated it and enabled it.

“If you think that, you're unbelieveable but a good example of one who's stuck on a dogmatic principle of the way things should be and suffers from the inherent limitations of this narrow way of thinking. Kinda like religion, but I digress...”

Dude you have gone far beyond digression. You are way out there. Was this supposed to be a coherent thought? Could have fooled me.

“Where as, I have admitted that the need for a union has existed and may still in some instances, but you folks have never entertained an idea other that a union.
Typical.”

Clearly Unions and collective bargaining are not appropriate in all management vs. labor scenarios. But just as clearly a contract reached through the collective bargaining process is badly needed at Options. What you seem unable to grasp is the causality that has necessitated a Union and a need for a CBA at Options. In your VERY biased, narrow minded way of thinking, management, YOU, can do no wrong, has free hand to do as they please regardless of the impact on the employee. This is exactly the limited mentality I expect form the gutless wonders that have not yet been weeded from our middle management ranks.

You have no argument that can hold water, Quit while you are behind.
 
...This is exactly the limited mentality I expect form the gutless wonders that have not yet been weeded from our middle management ranks...

You make some great points there 'surfer, but I am not optimistic that the "gutless wonders" will ever be weeded from the ranks. Most of them are nothing but "yes" men, and will lean which ever way the wind blows. If Mr. Ricci ever stops suddenly, he'll probably have to get a warm water enema to wash out all the noses.
 
You might be right

You make some great points there 'surfer, but I am not optimistic that the "gutless wonders" will ever be weeded from the ranks. Most of them are nothing but "yes" men, and will lean which ever way the wind blows. If Mr. Ricci ever stops suddenly, he'll probably have to get a warm water enema to wash out all the noses.


993 you might/are probably right about our gutless middle management not being weeded out. I just wonder how Riccie can justify keeping these tainted managers around in light of the philosophies he espouses in his highly touted book. None of us could ever trust most of these managers, so how does Riccie ever build his management built on trust?
 
993 you might/are probably right about our gutless middle management not being weeded out. I just wonder how Riccie can justify keeping these tainted managers around in light of the philosophies he espouses in his highly touted book. None of us could ever trust most of these managers, so how does Riccie ever build his management built on trust?

... and yet another very good question !

I certainly don't know the answer to that one. Time will tell, I guess.
 
wtf, roger that.

WTF over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude are you drunk when you sit down your computer???? What you write is abstract, disconnected and irrelevant. And dude learn how to use you spell check.

Don't start with the spell sheck. I've found it takes away from the point you're trying to make.


“without a union? There's absolutly no way there can be happy emplyees or a successful company”

I have not seen anyone use absolutes such as never, not possible, or no way can a company operate without a Union on this or any board. (See the red "only" below, fool. Talk about absolutes...) We have been speaking of Flight Options and the history that has transpired at our company not some arbitrary, hypothetical, in a perfect world company. What we have learned is that a Union is essential at Options. We have learned from experience, by the abuses that have been laid on us, by the incompetent management that occupied top management levels until recently, and still permeates middle management. In a perfect world I don’t believe any of us would choose Union over non Union. Options has proven to us that we do not live in that perfect world and we need protections from these imperfect management we are stuck with.


“And management is always wrong and always against the employee? Is that that basis of what you're saying?”

The management of Options for the past 5 years has been an abstract failure. When every other Fractional has grown by double digits, we have shrunk by 50%, this can only be attributed to pi$$ poor incompetent management. You want to blame the Union for what ails Options ignoring the fact that its management that’s responsible for every problem we have. Has management had a draconian predisposition toward abusing our pilots? Yes they have. They have repeatedly exhibited it over the past 3 years through productivity reviews, through reliability reviews, through repeated disciplinary meetings designed to intimidate pilots into submission, through firing pilots, 68 at one time, in order to try and scare the remaining the pilots into submission. So yes that is what I’m saying. Options upper management exercised a systematic campaign of abuse of our pilots and the gutless middle managers we still have tolerated it and enabled it.

Well, to dispute, I don't see it as "abuse" , just a high expectaion of perfromance during a tough time. I know you won't like that, but consider it....

“If you think that, you're unbelieveable but a good example of one who's stuck on a dogmatic principle of the way things should be and suffers from the inherent limitations of this narrow way of thinking. Kinda like religion, but I digress...”

Dude you have gone far beyond digression. You are way out there. Was this supposed to be a coherent thought? Could have fooled me.

“Where as, I have admitted that the need for a union has existed and may still in some instances, but you folks have never entertained an idea other that a union.
Typical.”

Clearly Unions and collective bargaining are not appropriate in all management vs. labor scenarios. But just as clearly a contract reached through the collective bargaining process is badly needed at Options. What you seem unable to grasp is the causality that has necessitated a Union and a need for a CBA at Options. In your VERY biased, narrow minded way of thinking, management, YOU, can do no wrong, has free hand to do as they please regardless of the impact on the employee. This is exactly the limited mentality I expect form the gutless wonders that have not yet been weeded from our middle management ranks.

You have no argument that can hold water, Quit while you are behind.
Quit? What? Simply because it's opposed to what you people are saying? No I do have a water/piss holding argument, but it would take some effort on your part to go out of your comfort zone and realize your way may not be the only way. Kinda like religion, but I won't go there since it's "way out there" captain intellectual.

You guys are fun, but narrow. Sorry.
 
Well, to dispute, I don't see it as "abuse" , just a high expectaion of perfromance during a tough time. I know you won't like that, but consider it....


hahahahahah.....I guess engine plug May is an "High Expectation".....hahahahah


What about taking a Beechjet from ASE to TEB (or somewhere over there) NONSTOP, by one of our checkairman. yea thats "High Expectations"

How about talking to some PSM's, most of the time we all just hang up the phone cause they have no clue. yea thats "High Expectations"

no your funny! and I'm not sorry.

The stronger our union gets, the less power you morons will have.
 
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lol you got served skanza.....LOL


LOL? You used that? Are you 15 or something?

Anycrap, those things listed were not things that management condoned. But of coure, you'd have to prove that a 400A was flown that far by that person, or show that May is in the same management position after the alleged plug incident. Niether you or I can prove or disprove these, so its not worth discussing.

Again you miss the point I was trying to make. Read the red print in the above post again.
 
LOL? You used that? Are you 15 or something?

Anycrap, those things listed were not things that management condoned. But of coure, you'd have to prove that a 400A was flown that far by that person, or show that May is in the same management position after the alleged plug incident. Niether you or I can prove or disprove these, so its not worth discussing.

Again you miss the point I was trying to make. Read the red print in the above post again.

Oh...............contrair young skumza, proof you seek.
The controller at Cleveland was a dispatcher at Flight Options, that CLE ATC controller (exdispatcher) called the Beechjet PM (BB) and asked if it was "Possible" to fly that far, and BB said no, controller (ex dispatcher) said there doing it right now. Your in CGF ask BB.

The other things might not be condoned by mgmt, but that pilot is still flying, after a taped phone call requiring a pilot to fly a broken airplane (he was the Hawker PM at the time), and lying to management about the plug ( beechjet Capt), breaking SOP's, and the FAR's.
So your right at the time, mgmt didnt condon the action. But after the fact mgmt didn't punish either, so they did condon the action by their inaction.

But your up there all the time I'm sure your aware of this. Shoot you could be Engine Cover Pilot!
 

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