For All You FLOPS BJ Pilots, a little memory lane action

[993_Pilot]

The real problems with the airlines, is their business model. Management at most majors won't change it, so they falter and occasionally fail. SWA uses a different model, and they have been very successful because of it. It doesn't mean that they are immune from the economy (or other market forces), but they are still in much better shape than most.

 

[B19 Flyer]

When was the last time American declared bankruptcy?

American was on the courthouse stairs when the union (APA) decided in the eleventh hour it was in their best interest to decide their own fate rather than have the bankrupcty judge do it for them. DAL wasn't even close to filing for another 18 months, and it could have been avoided even then had DALPA responded in a timely manner.

 

[B19 Flyer]

The real problems with the airlines, is their business model. Management at most majors won't change it, so they falter and occasionally fail. SWA uses a different model, and they have been very successful because of it. It doesn't mean that they are immune from the economy (or other market forces), but they are still in much better shape than most.

Southwest can't compete with legacy carriers and they don't try to. They smartly stay within their niche. They only fly domestic with a single fleet type to CAT I mins. Yes, a smart and profitable business model.

International legacy carriers fly to CAT 3 (incurring addtional training, maintenance and crew costs) using multiple fleet types to ICAO standards worldwide. They have 75 years worth of retirement and pensions to deal with.

The Jetblue/SWA model can't be compared. Apples and oranges.

Long term fall back of the frac model is yet to be tested, but for the first time the current FAA 91 frac requirements and costs are coming into play. Fracs require sales to expand, they can't rely only on user fees. If the sales level at NJ pulls down, and these companies with high level executives continue to be criticized as the auto execs and CEO pay have recently been, there will be a ripple that will drill down and into the "growth" core of the model that NJ has enjoyed unlimited growth with that supports the "industry leading contract."

 

[fischman]

American was on the courthouse stairs when the union (APA) decided in the eleventh hour it was in their best interest to decide their own fate rather than have the bankruptcy judge do it for them. DAL wasn't even close to filing for another 18 months, and it could have been avoided even then had DALPA responded in a timely manner.

Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't get an ANSWER. When was the last time American declared bankruptcy?


(I went ahead and fixed all your spelling errors for you. You're welcome).

 

[993_Pilot]

Southwest can't compete with legacy carriers and they don't try to. They smartly stay within their niche. They only fly domestic with a single fleet type to CAT I mins. Yes, a smart and profitable business model.

International legacy carriers fly to CAT 3 (incurring addtional training, maintenance and crew costs) using multiple fleet types to ICAO standards worldwide. They have 75 years worth of retirement and pensions to deal with.

The Jetblue/SWA model can't be compared. Apples and oranges.

Long term fall back of the frac model is yet to be tested, but for the first time the current FAA 91 frac requirements and costs are coming into play. Fracs require sales to expand, they can't rely only on user fees. If the sales level at NJ pulls down, and these companies with high level executives continue to be criticized as the auto execs and CEO pay have recently been, there will be a ripple that will drill down and into the "growth" core of the model that NJ has enjoyed unlimited growth with that supports the "industry leading contract."

My point is that SWA has carved out a profitable niche for themselves, instead of copying the legacy carriers business model. If a fractional's business model depends on continued growth for profitability, then it is doomed to fail too, although I'm sure you'll blame that on the unions. Every market reaches maturity at some point (like now), and unless they adapt their business model to find profit elsewhere, it will fail. Period. Why is it that the main way that managers try to adapt, is cut expenses. . . usually by cutting payroll? Try raising your prices to something above what the service actually costs to provide, then differentiate yourself from the competition by providing better service. Of course that is tough to do with disgruntled employees !

 

[brokeflyer]

My point is that SWA has carved out a profitable niche for themselves, instead of copying the legacy carriers business model. If a fractional's business model depends on continued growth for profitability, then it is doomed to fail too, although I'm sure you'll blame that on the unions. Every market reaches maturity at some point (like now), and unless they adapt their business model to find profit elsewhere, it will fail. Period. Why is it that the main way that managers try to adapt, is cut expenses. . . usually by cutting payroll? Try raising your prices to something above what the service actually costs to provide, then differentiate yourself from the competition by providing better service. Of course that is tough to do with disgruntled employees !

It makes it impossible because of management sucking all the profits from the company. I heard somewhere that the CEO of delta's paycheck was MORE than what the whole company took in for profit!!!!OMFG.

Ya can't raise prices or alter your business because management needs to take that money for themselves......that is undisputed fact. Sorry.

 

[dime line]

It makes it impossible because of management sucking all the profits from the company.

I heard somewhere that the CEO of delta's paycheck was MORE than what the whole company took in for profit!!!!OMFG.

Ya can't raise prices or alter your business because management needs to take that money for themselves......that is undisputed fact. Sorry.

No that was Tilton at United in 2006, he took in a cool 40mil that year and the company took in a cool 25mil

 

[brokeflyer]

thanks for the correction....

40mil?.......no wonder we need unions.

40mil?......and they have guys on furlough, or making crap wages.

 

[B19 Flyer]

No that was Tilton at United in 2006, he took in a cool 40mil that year and the company took in a cool 25mil

Maybe there is some irony that a heavily unionized carrier like United had a CEO that took 40 million in 2006 while the CEO of a lightly unionized carrier in Atlanta (DAL) took a pay cut from his 2005 salary of $500,000 and didn't accept his final 3 months pay of $125,000.

 

[fischman]

Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't get an ANSWER. When was the last time American declared bankruptcy?


(I went ahead and fixed all your spelling errors for you. You're welcome).

What do you know? No answer. Where's the lie B19?

 

[B19 Flyer]

What do you know? No answer. Where's the lie B19?

American is the last remaining legacy carrier fischman to not declare bankrupcty.

It does not change the fact that American was hours away of going into bankruptcy when the unions decided it was best that they, rather than the judge, was going to deal with what would happen to their CBA and agreed to the concessions.

It also doesn't change the fact it was YEARS before DAL ever thought about bankrupcty, and it is well know that it was for the single reason DAL was the least unionized carrier that allowed it to stave off the bankruptcy the longest.

They also have become the best positioned legacy carrier even now for the exact same reason.

AMR also proved that "industry leading contracts" don't usually last, and none of them did.

So with that stated, want to place a bet on the first day that NJ managment approaches the union with the following:

• First talks of furloughs.
• First talk of concessions.
• Actual furloughs.
• Actual concessions.

It's going to happen.. there is no hiding behind it. The massive turmoil is on the way, the train is coming and it ain't gonna turn around...

 

[fischman]

American is the last remaining legacy carrier fischman to not declare bankruptcy.

Hmmmm...... That seems to be in contradiction of what you stated earlier.

So did you lie, or were you ignorant?

I went ahead and fixed your spelling errors for you again. There is an icon that has "abc" with a check mark under it. If you hit that, it will fix your spelling errors. It is like pure magic.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Address the post...

Hmmmm...... That seems to be in contradiction of what you stated earlier.

So did you lie, or were you ignorant?

I went ahead and fixed your spelling errors for you again. There is an icon that has "abc" with a check mark under it. If you hit that, it will fix your spelling errors. It is like pure magic.

My exact statement was "all legacy carriers", right? I didn't single out American... so yes, it was an error on my part because I grouped them all together.

Until the union forced DAL into filing by lack of action, DAL was the other carrier that had never been forced into bankruptcy. As a matter of fact, unlike American, they had never even been close.

Now we have that settled. Address the rest of the post if you have the courage. The fact that it's well known within the industry that DAL held off the longest because they are the LEAST unionized and were able to adjust the fastest to market pressures. They also came out of bankruptcy the strongest.

American couldn't do that, thus the unions were forced to take concessions before the judge forced them.

With that stated, address the rest of the post, the part where all the other legacy carriers were either into bankruptcy or to the brink (i.e. American) a full 18 months or more before DAL.

 

[fischman]

I'm glad you could claim you were ignorant. Wisdom begins with 3 words: "I don't know". You appear to be improving. Good job!



How can you be "the least" unionized? You're either wet or you're not. You're either union or you are not. Delta is a union shop.



(Did you find the spell check icon?)

 

[B19 Flyer]

I'm glad you could claim you were ignorant. Wisdom begins with 3 words: "I don't know". You appear to be improving. Good job!



How can you be "the least" unionized? You're either wet or you're not. You're either union or you are not. Delta is a union shop.



(Did you find the spell check icon?)

Find me another legacy carrier with 2 or less unions on the property and then we'll classify them as the least unionized carrier for the industry experts. Until then, it's DAL and they held off the threat of bankruptcy the longest.