FLOPS Aircraft in MIA

[netjetwife]

To help readers better understand how 1108 operates, I offer this clarification on my fine fischy friend's clarification...

The elected Executive Board overseas the entire Local (both pilotgroups) and is made up of 7 NJ pilots-- 4 officials and 3 trustees. (1 of each serve as Stewards, too.) Typically, the high work load and frequent meetings, especially last year during IBB, prevent the 4 officials from being able to fly so their base salary is provided by 1108 when that happens. Their tenure ends this year and several have already posted on the NJ board that they look forward to rejoining the line. Anyone thinking it's a cushy job is seriously mistaken.

NJ and Options pilots are each served by an elected Master Executive Council. Some MEC members also serve as Stewards and take turns being the SOD and the VSOD. MEC members fly regularly so their base salary doesn't come from 1108, but the NJ MEC does earn the stipend, or flight-loss pay as it's also called. Those looking for perks won't find it on this job either.

Stewards are contract experts who represent the pilots and some pull double duty serving on one of the committees as well. Helping other pilots with contract questions/issues can be quite rewarding--if you're not talking about money. The stipend doesn't cover all the time and income Stewards donate to the pilotgroup.

The NJ pilotgroup has 18 committees and some of those stay very busy. The Chairmen of some committees also serve on joint committees with their management counterparts. Some Chairmen qualify for flight-loss pay because they spend additional time in CMH and do a ton of work on their own time. Their stipend is earned many times over.

Committee members are the group Fischman calls Volunteers. While they do a great service to the Union (yes, above and beyond flying) they don't have the responsibility that comes with positions of leadership listed above and don't usually miss flying so they aren't given the stipend. That's not to say they don't give up free time for the greater good.

I have great respect for the leaders/volunteers of 1108 who have made the Local what it is today--an example for aviation to follow. The Membership is very supportive and appreciative and many donated money to StrongUnion to help develop 1108. I am sure if the need arose that they would respond with enthusiasm again. NJW

 

[CaveoFalco]

What percentage of dues go to the national IBT? How much of the $$$ goes to the big business of belonging to a union?

It is a business, make no mistake about it.

It is in the IBT Constitution available all over the web, maybe on your favorite for research Wikipedia. That would require research - never mind, I know your position on real research.

 

[nomore]

Please Please Please

Please stop hitting the quote button when replying to B-19. I have had his idiocy on ignore for a long time now and suggest you do the same, but if you must reply try to do it without using the quote function. I'm asking you all nicely.
Thanks


N

 

[fischman]

With all due respect.

There is no nice way to say this.

Only whiners and cowards use the ignore function.

It's like saying, "I don't want to play with you anymore. I'm going to a different playground."

I suggest you grow up and quit whining.

 

[RNObased]

You are calling me crazy and a lunatic? Hardly.

Your husband was an AA alumni that got burned by a union, yet you still believe in them.

I'm calling you a idiot and a lunatic and basically not very bright.

So you are going after NJW by saying that her husband was furloughed because of the union. This is possibly one of the most assinine things you have posted and I have ever read. I believe, nope I know that her husband was furloughed after the 9/11 attacks on this country. So using your very poor logic stream, the unions of this country are to blame for fanatics hijacking jets and flying them into our national landmarks and killing thousands of people???

Even for someone as blinded by their hatred of unions as you are, this is complete and utter bullshi$. Her husband getting furloughed had nothing to do with the union and everything to do with crazies.

I'm waiting for you to post something intelligent one of these days, guess I will keep waiting..

 

[B19 Flyer]

I'm calling you a idiot and a lunatic and basically not very bright.

So you are going after NJW by saying that her husband was furloughed because of the union. This is possibly one of the most assinine things you have posted and I have ever read. I believe, nope I know that her husband was furloughed after the 9/11 attacks on this country. So using your very poor logic stream, the unions of this country are to blame for fanatics hijacking jets and flying them into our national landmarks and killing thousands of people???

Even for someone as blinded by their hatred of unions as you are, this is complete and utter bullshi$. Her husband getting furloughed had nothing to do with the union and everything to do with crazies.

I'm waiting for you to post something intelligent one of these days, guess I will keep waiting..

AMR was hurting before September 11. Last time I checked, the 7th comes before the 11th.

I guess Edgar on line is not a credible source to show that the industry was in trouble before then.

The statement below of "increased labor costs" is a nice way of saying "Collective bargaining agreement".

It's clear that you don't understand that the industry was in a tumble months and months before September 11th.

By coincidence, this was all within months of most of the majors signing "industry leading contracts".

________________________________


FOR RELEASE: Friday, Sept. 7, 2001


AMR EXPECTS THIRD QUARTER LOSS, RETIRES MORE AIRCRAFT IN RESPONSE TO SLUGGISH ECONOMY


FORT WORTH, Texas - AMR Corp., the parent company of
American Airlines, Inc. and TWA Airlines LLC, said today that
it expects a third quarter loss considerably larger than its
second quarter loss as it continues to feel the combined
effects of a weak economic climate, high fuel prices and
increased labor costs. The company said that it also expects
a significant fourth quarter loss.


To further rein in capacity while demand is weak, the
company announced today that it would retire five more Boeing
727 aircraft earlier than originally planned. These five
aircraft, which would have been retired during 2003, will now
be retired during first quarter 2002. This latest change
means that American will retire its entire Boeing 727 fleet by
the end of 2002, a full year ahead of the original plan.


This latest round of capacity cuts brings to 41 the
number of active aircraft that AMR will retire early in
response to poor economic conditions and falling demand. As a
result, capacity for the combined American/TWA entity will be
flat in 2001 and will fall by almost one and a half percent in
2002.


American will continue to accept aircraft that are
already on firm order and currently scheduled for delivery
through 2004. However, the company has passed on recent
purchase rights for additional aircraft that would have been
delivered in 2002 and 2003.

Click on the link for more information:


http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/09/07/0000006201-01-500036/Section5.asp

 

[B19 Flyer]

There is no nice way to say this.

Only whiners and cowards use the ignore function.

It's like saying, "I don't want to play with you anymore. I'm going to a different playground."

I suggest you grow up and quit whining.

They don't like to play fischman! But that's OK.

 

[B19 Flyer]

It is in the IBT Constitution available all over the web, maybe on your favorite for research Wikipedia. That would require research - never mind, I know your position on real research.

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=93&year=2006


http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionFinances.cfm?id=93&year=2006

 

[Helmsalee]

If the union get in and the new contract is decent, this may be the new Netjets. Those who are in the pipeline will be ahead of the rest.

 

[Galaxy]

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionOfficers.cfm?id=93&year=2006


http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionFinances.cfm?id=93&year=2006

Well BOB,
Now that we know that info-could you post your salary and other benifits here so we can compare them?

While you are at it post MS's and Babu's too as well as the up to date costs of this lame F & H group to fight the union-which they lost.

Please post FLOPS financial status here so we can compare it to the IBT's numbers.

You are such a foolish SCAB!

 

[Galaxy]

If the union get in and the new contract is decent, this may be the new Netjets. Those who are in the pipeline will be ahead of the rest.

Oh please,
are you really talking about FLOPS? It is in a death spin and recovery looks bleak.

 

[fischman]

They don't like to play fischman! But that's OK.

We may be polarized, but at least we like to play.

 

[WabiSabi]

There is no nice way to say this.

Only whiners and cowards use the ignore function.

It's like saying, "I don't want to play with you anymore. I'm going to a different playground."

I suggest you grow up and quit whining.

So, you admit that you're part of the playground? It sounds like you have a bit of growing to do yourself.....to turn your own words. C'mon man, to each their own. Ignoring B19 and his ilk is a statement and is not in the least cowardly or whining.

I don't blame anyone for ignoring the likes of B19, especially if they're here for serious and intelligent discussion. I won't do it only because it is like forcing myself to not look at an automobile accident.

 

[nomore]

Fischman my friend

There is no nice way to say this.

Only whiners and cowards use the ignore function.

It's like saying, "I don't want to play with you anymore. I'm going to a different playground."

I suggest you grow up and quit whining.

This is the internet and we are all here under assumed names.That covers the coward part.

I've read Bob Tyler I mean B-19's posts enough. He never says anything new, his position is intractable and so what is the point of arguing with the guy. I choose to ignore him, my right. And a statement of it's own.

Now calling me a whiner, that hurt but I don't think it's true. So I'll just dismiss that charge. And as far as growing up, no thanks man I've seen the consequences of that up close. I'm keeping my sense of humor, wonderment and sheer joy at being above ground.

So Fischman is it ok with you now if I keep Bob on my ignore list?


N
(I love signing my name this way.)

 

[nomore]

On second thought

Aw screw it! I'm putting Fischman on ignore too. Who knows getting on my ignore list might become a badge of honor for a certain crowd.



N

 

[nomore]

I tried

Fischman I couldn't do it. I tried but the stooges staring at me broke my will. Any man that uses a 3 Stooges avatar can't be ignored. Forgive me Fischman.


N

 

[B19 Flyer]

We may be polarized, but at least we like to play.

You're one of the few that "gets it" that I'm not Bob Tyler, but have a vast difference of opinion with what I see on the boards.

You are 100% right, we are polarized, but it's about unions and the issues surrounding them, not the facts surrouding the issues of operating safe and efficient flights.

I've said, if you don't want to read it, go ahead and block me, I don't want you to read my opinion. But if everybody simply drank the union koolaid and nobody protested, it would be a very, very boring board.

 

[fischman]

Fischman I couldn't do it. I tried but the stooges staring at me broke my will. Any man that uses a 3 Stooges avatar can't be ignored. Forgive me Fischman.


N

Fair enough man. Like i said, "With all due respect."

I just don't can't see how someone can be SOOOOOOOOOOOO offensive on the internet that you just can't bear reading their posts. Even B19's.

 

[RNObased]

AMR was hurting before September 11. Last time I checked, the 7th comes before the 11th.

I guess Edgar on line is not a credible source to show that the industry was in trouble before then.

The statement below of "increased labor costs" is a nice way of saying "Collective bargaining agreement".

It's clear that you don't understand that the industry was in a tumble months and months before September 11th.

By coincidence, this was all within months of most of the majors signing "industry leading contracts".

________________________________



[URL="http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/09/07/0000006201-01-500036/Section5.asp"]http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/09/07/0000006201-01-500036/Section5.asp[/URL]

I understand just fine. Yes, you are correct for once 7 does come before 11 a whopping 4 days. I'm sure if I did a search I could find a article saying the earth is flat, dated last week.

However your article about retiring 727's that should have been retired years before hardly means that NJW's husband was going to be on the streets any time soon.

You can blame unions for all that is bad with this world, that is your choice. I don't care. The fact that you can't see your way to admit that mangement also causes a lot of their own issues through stupid desisions, is pretty one sided, not to mention ignorant.

I don't know if you are who they say you are, as in the dude at FLOPS, but it sounds like you have a long history of living life with blinders on.

 

[fischman]

You're one of the few that "gets it" that I'm not Bob Tyler, but have a vast difference of opinion with what I see on the boards.

You are 100% right, we are polarized, but it's about unions and the issues surrounding them, not the facts surrouding the issues of operating safe and efficient flights.

I've said, if you don't want to read it, go ahead and block me, I don't want you to read my opinion. But if everybody simply drank the union koolaid and nobody protested, it would be a very, very boring board.

Actually, I don't care if you are Bob Tyler or not.

It looks like we agree to disagree. (Even though I'm right and you're wrong. )

 

[FR8DOG777]

You get what you pay for

The argument which appears on this board weekly that fractional owners are rich and won't miss a few extra dollars is the single worst assumption that can be made. The majority of "ultra wealthy" people I know are much cheaper than the "non ultra wealthy". If you do not believe me, just ask the waiters at a local fine restaurant. I know many an "ultra wealthy" who have spent 30 minutes arguing over a $1 local call in a hotel even though it was posted trying to argue it was unreasonable. Please, do not confuse the two.

Fly safe.[/quote]


The only thing I agree about this viewpoint is there are two types of fractional owners. The thrifty penny pinching can't miss a dime and the ones who could care less how much it costs to fly at a fractional. The pilots work harder, fly more, and have a much more dangerous job than our Corporate counterparts. These owners who do not wish to pay the extra management fees associated with having a well qualified pilot at the controls of the airplane need to go back to flying at the airlines or buy their own personal jet. This type of thinking that you allude to is very flawed. Frac pilots deserve every dime the are paid and is HARDLY up to standards of other professions. Like I said before if you can afford the tip don't eat out at expensive restaurants.

 

[B19 Flyer]

However your article about retiring 727's that should have been retired years before hardly means that NJW's husband was going to be on the streets any time soon.

You can blame unions for all that is bad with this world, that is your choice. I don't care. The fact that you can't see your way to admit that mangement also causes a lot of their own issues through stupid desisions, is pretty one sided, not to mention ignorant.

Which part of "weak economic climate, high fuel prices and increased labor costs." did you misunderstand?

I don't know if you are who they say you are, as in the dude at FLOPS, but it sounds like you have a long history of living life with blinders on.

The only blind ones are the ones that don't see how a single union can cripple an entire company and all the employees that work there.

The only flaws in management, were to agree to industry leading contracts that the union would refuse to amend until it was too late and the majors were either in bankrupcty or on the edge like American was.


FORT WORTH, Texas - AMR Corp., the parent company of American Airlines, Inc. and TWA Airlines LLC, said today that it expects a third quarter loss considerably larger than its second quarter loss as it continues to feel the combined effects of a weak economic climate, high fuel prices and increased labor costs. The company said that it also expects
a significant fourth quarter loss.


Remember, this was all before the 11th.

 

[B19 Flyer]

The argument which appears on this board weekly that fractional owners are rich and won't miss a few extra dollars is the single worst assumption that can be made. The majority of "ultra wealthy" people I know are much cheaper than the "non ultra wealthy". If you do not believe me, just ask the waiters at a local fine restaurant. I know many an "ultra wealthy" who have spent 30 minutes arguing over a $1 local call in a hotel even though it was posted trying to argue it was unreasonable. Please, do not confuse the two.

Fly safe.

The only thing I agree about this viewpoint is there are two types of fractional owners. The thrifty penny pinching can't miss a dime and the ones who could care less how much it costs to fly at a fractional. The pilots work harder, fly more, and have a much more dangerous job than our Corporate counterparts. These owners who do not wish to pay the extra management fees associated with having a well qualified pilot at the controls of the airplane need to go back to flying at the airlines or buy their own personal jet. This type of thinking that you allude to is very flawed. Frac pilots deserve every dime the are paid and is HARDLY up to standards of other professions. Like I said before if you can afford the tip don't eat out at expensive restaurants.[/quote]

I agree that it's demanding, I get that. By I don't understand why you feel it's more dangerous when you have more support than a normal charter operator.

 

[WabiSabi]

The only flaws in management, were to agree to industry leading contracts that the union would refuse to amend until it was too late and the majors were either in bankrupcty or on the edge like American was.

If you truly believe that management is infallible, you surely have your head up your ass. Management's flaws has been shown to you on this forum over and over.......hell, the INDUSTRY shows it to you but, you're drinking too much Kool Aid to realize it. My Bob, you sure are an ignoramus.

It's really funny win FLOPS is used as an example to try and educate you and all you do is mindlessly babble when you know nothing about FLOPS.

As for you using American as an example; your unionfacts.com or other websites that are anti union by default, of which you like to post the links, doesn't cut it.

Babble on scab, babble on.

 

[Galaxy]

I agree that it's demanding, I get that. By I don't understand why you feel it's more dangerous when you have more support than a normal charter operator.

It is more dnagerous at FLOPS because the support has no real clue on what to do.
Now for the support.. I had the displeasure of being in CGF while they were interviewing schedulers off the street. I heard this girl saying her last job was at TGIF's or ruby's as a hostess or waitress. I thought there is no way they would hire her with no aviation or organizational job experience. Next monday she was in training. I guess when you can not attract decent employees you have to settle.
Fact is Bob/B19-whoever you are FLOPS sucks. Not just FLOPS pilots know it but the industry knows it and they can only attract the lowest of experience and desperate for a job types. As for the great support people they are folks who would rather have an inside office type job than delivering hot wings. FLOPS great support, would you be refering to the aesthetics dept that ask how bad the vomit is on the carpet and sidewall from the sick kid and why can't you do another flight with owners like it is? Or when you tell them that the Cherry Air lear looks nicer than the plane you are flying they tell you it was cleaned less than 3 months ago it should still be clean.
FLOPS is a dying company. Even if HIG infused it with cash it would just prolong the inevitable. NJA has enough applications to park 80-90% of the FLOPS fleet if they hired them all. The FLOPS brand has been destroyed by lack of customer service and poor mgt decisions-not any union. The union was voted in by the pilots to protect themselves against a mgt team with documented history of pilot hatred. The QOL was taken away from the pilots piece by piece. The best way to describe it is the frog in the water analagy, if you toss a frog in hot water it will immediatly jump out but if you slowly heat the water it will remain and eventually die. The pilots don't care too much for FLOPS then who will mgt?
It is a shame that a once good company was turned from a place to hang your hat for a a career then turned into a stepping stone to a better job and is now a waiting room for a better job.
You can post your FUD here all you want but none of it will ever save FLOPS from the death that awaits them. Union or not it can not stay afloat. The captain of the ship is always to blame for incidents. Just ask the feds...

 

[jetwash]

I had the displeasure of being in CGF while they were interviewing schedulers off the street. I heard this girl saying her last job was at TGIF's or ruby's as a hostess or waitress. I thought there is no way they would hire her with no aviation or organizational job experience. Next monday she was in training.

I have already experienced the new hire dispatchers / schedulers, I know they mean well and are trying but I can't be doing their jobs for them or training them over the phone.

I have just started to ask for the PSM if I want something done right by someone who understands what it going on.

But I do occasionally like to have some fun with the new dispatchers. I would call and say something like "the RVR just went below the CATII min and our flex capacitor is Mel'd until the next C check but I can still use the VOR or GPS"
WHAT SHOULD I DO???? I need your instructions!!!!
I usually get the "Please Hold" then the, "I am going to transfer you to the PSM" It works every time

 

[NJAowner]

FR8DOG777 you misinterpreted my post (not that you are the first on the board to ever misinterpret a post). I was not saying all fractional owners are cheap ... just some. My comment was a rebuttable to the never ending proposition put forth on this board which goes something like this "Fractional owners are so rich. They will not miss an increase in fees. Therefore, we should be paid $xxx". If you look at the history of my posts you wil se I supported an increase in fractional pilot salaries. However, the thesis stated above is wrong. Fractional fees to owners can not increase ad infinitum. At some point owners will look to other methods, such as whole ownership of an aircraft. It is a very faulty assumption to assume that just becuase owners ae wealthy you can increase fees and pikot salaries.

Fly safe.

 

[netjetwife]

I'm calling you a idiot and a lunatic and basically not very bright. Every village has one, apparently. Alas, even an online community.

So you are going after NJW by saying that her husband was furloughed because of the union. I'm a target because I'm a strong advocate of 1108 and in his desperation he thought he found a weak spot. This is possibly one of the most assinine things you have posted and I have ever read. The second time he looked even more like a fool who won't accept "no" for an answer. I believe, nope I know that her husband was furloughed after the 9/11 attacks on this country. So using your very poor logic stream, the unions of this country are to blame for fanatics hijacking jets and flying them into our national landmarks and killing thousands of people???
Don't give him any ideas!

Even for someone as blinded by their hatred of unions as you are, this is complete and utter bullshi$. Her husband getting furloughed had nothing to do with the union and everything to do with crazies. MY husband has also suggested that management messed up and had hired too many pilots.

I'm waiting for you to post something intelligent one of these days, guess I will keep waiting..

You nailed it when you said B19's blinded by his hatred. Until that changes he lacks the objectivity required for a rational discussion about 1108. So while you're waiting best to keep an eye on the rising FUD water.... and grab your boots!

 

[RNObased]

The only flaws in management, were to agree to industry leading contracts that the union would refuse to amend until it was too late and the majors were either in bankrupcty or on the edge like American was.

So you are saying that mangement at American has only made ONE mistake in it's history and that was to agree to the contract before 9/11??

Hmm, that is so silly that I can't even comment. B19 until you are able to look at the flaws of both sides, we can't have a intelligent conversation. Your bias is always going to keep you from the truth.

Look at what NJAowner says, there are ALWAYS ego on both sides of a negotation, so you are telling me that you don't believe that either??

Mangement always thinks that they know exactly how to operate a jet in the safest and most efficent manner, and the pilots always think they can run the company better then the current mangement. Been that way since the beginning. Wake up and realize that there is blame to go around.

 

[dime line]

The only thing I agree about this viewpoint is there are two types of fractional owners. The thrifty penny pinching can't miss a dime and the ones who could care less how much it costs to fly at a fractional. The pilots work harder, fly more, and have a much more dangerous job than our Corporate counterparts. These owners who do not wish to pay the extra management fees associated with having a well qualified pilot at the controls of the airplane need to go back to flying at the airlines or buy their own personal jet. This type of thinking that you allude to is very flawed. Frac pilots deserve every dime the are paid and is HARDLY up to standards of other professions. Like I said before if you can afford the tip don't eat out at expensive restaurants.

I agree that it's demanding, I get that. By I don't understand why you feel it's more dangerous when you have more support than a normal charter operator.[/quote]


You call what is in CGF "Support", Dammmmmm you should be fired for being so stupid. They almost treat us as bad as you do.

Shoot for that matter look at how they treat our owners!!!!!!!