FLOPS Aircraft in MIA

[netjetwife]

Make no mistake, all serious labor negotiations are (almost entirely) about ego. Please do not think they are about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. ... It is about the ego at the top of both side handling the negotiations....

This generalization partially applied during the NJ contract talks prior to the signing of the 2005 CBA. Here are 2 indicators of which side was the egotistical one: 1) Wages qualified pilots for government assistance (as low as 28K) and 2) a company leader (Boisture) got booted shortly after an agreement was reached. The grass roots movement that brought new leaders (StrongUnion) to the table was made possible because grossly underpaid members were so overwhelmingly supportive of SU's call for professional compensation commiserate with the pilotgroup's responsibility and contribution. Recall that over 90% voted to strike. For the NJ pilots it was clearly about economics and lifestyle (home basing, schedules, etc) --not ego. The same applies to the underpaid Options pilotgroup whose benefits are also below the industry standard.

Let's all talk about a recent (fractional) Company-Union interaction. When it comes to negotiations, Interest Based Bargaining is a different animal altogether. As my primary source described it: think of brain-storming sessions with a joint commitment to finding fair solutions to common concerns. Absolutely long-term viability of the company is very much a top concern shared by the NJ pilots and their families. Contrary to the FUD being desperately hurled by B19 it is possible to work together. The final IBB contract offered a 3rd schedule, paid personal time off, pay raises, signing bonuses, and 100 Crew Bases--up from the paltry 5 of Boisture's domicile debacle. IBB, voluntarily entered into 3 yrs early, was definitely about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. Those are also the reasons workers organize their collective efforts to win/achieve parity with their industry peers. Every hour worked at sub-par wages is a loss for a frac pilot and his/her family.

As evidence of NJA's awareness of the damage caused by an over-inflated ego a personnel manager (RD) who lacked the cooperative spirit of IBB and refused to comply with the contract is no longer employed there. Changes were also made in training when egos got in the way there.

Basic fairness mandates that 1108 be judged on their own merits and their own track record. Nothing else is relevant in the fractional industry and inapplicable, prejudiced comments point to a hidden agenda by B19/Chicken Little who suspiciously wants underpaid frac pilots to think--in spite of 1108's excellent, fair record--that standing together for parity will cause the sky to fall.... The drum B19/VI incessantly bangs .. FUD FUD FUD .. just tells us all how out of step he is with common sense and economic reality.

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIVES AND THEY SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

 

[dime line]

B19 is a paid Ford and Harrison goon, he is doing his job on this board

Well said NJwife

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks, DL. I wholeheartedly agree that B19 has no credibility and his purpose in posting is extremely suspect. 1108 pilots understand that they are the Union. They are the ones who have decided to stand up together for their right to work under a contract. The pilots themselves are best suited to represent their own interests--no question about it.

All frac pilots essentially do the same job so big disparities in pay are not justified. The companies need to stop balancing the books on the back of the pilotgroup and pay these professionals fairly. No one can look at the low wages in the industry and honestly suggest that the pilots are asking for a lavish salary. B19 isn't just anti-union; the end result is that he's anti-pilot. Frac families give up a lot for the sake of the job and that must be compensated for. Working with the pilots is the right thing to do for the entire company and the owners. Having burned out, stressed out pilots wondering how they're going to make ends meet is a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach with potentially dangerous consequences. NJA and 1108 have proved that there's a better way and they deserve credit for that accomplishment. The industry standard has been set and every frac pilot is justified in seeking a comparable contract that recognizes the valuable contribution they make with every flight. Good Luck at the bargaining table! NJW

 

[NJAowner]

Several points - and I am short on time tonight so I will be short in response.

My comment about union negotiations and strikes being about ego was about ego on both sides. Very rarely, is it an ego just on one side.

I am no fan of unions (though if you read my posts I was one for a few years). But there is something wrong when most union executives make several times as much in salaray and benefits and perks than the members. You will say so do the corporate executives -- but they work for the shareholders and the shareholders are usually fine with the compensation. Over time, many of your former working colleagues become very comfortable when they switch to a full time union job and no longer have to do the same work as the rest of you. While now your local of the union may be interested in you, do not forget all of the years you had a different local/leadership and all of your dues supported many non-pilot aviation members. Was it 20 years? You were only granted your own local after the threat of leaving the union.

The argument which appears on this board weekly that fractional owners are rich and won't miss a few extra dollars is the single worst assumption that can be made. The majority of "ultra wealthy" people I know are much cheaper than the "non ultra wealthy". If you do not believe me, just ask the waiters at a local fine restaurant. I know many an "ultra wealthy" who have spent 30 minutes arguing over a $1 local call in a hotel even though it was posted trying to argue it was unreasonable. Please, do not confuse the two.

Fly safe.

 

[netjetwife]

... My comment about union negotiations and strikes being about ego was about ego on both sides. Very rarely, is it an ego just on one side. For the reasons I listed above the NJ pilots are in the rare occurrence category. 1108 is run by volunteers who wouldn't be motivated to sacrifice personal time if they were just propping up an ego.

I am no fan of unions (though if you read my posts I was one for a few years). It may interest readers to learn that the CEO of NJA stated that he is glad the pilotgroup is unionized because 1108 helps keep the company safe by empowering the pilots to resist pressure from schedulers. Contractual work rules are a safety net. But there is something wrong when most union executives make several times as much in salary and benefits and perks than the members. If you are referring to Teamsters National then I agree. 1108 is not like the IBT and I'd support any splinter movement for the NJ pilots to give Teamsters the boot. For the record, 1108 volunteers/leaders can actually wind up losing income (overtime, holiday pay, etc) when they don't get to fly because of Union and/or joint committee projects. That has often been the case with my husband. ... Over time, many of your former working colleagues become very comfortable when they switch to a full time union job and no longer have to do the same work as the rest of you. That is not applicable to 1108. In reality, serving the greater good entails a lot of personal/family sacrifice and more hours. Most of the elected leaders and all of the volunteers still fly the line, as my husband does, plus they do Union work at home. The leaders and committee chairmen are always available to the membership whereas the line pilots can totally disconnect from the job on their days off. While now your local of the union may be interested in you (The pilots themselves are the Local. Their self-interest got them where they are today--leading the industry). do not forget all of the years you had a different local/leadership and all of your dues supported many non-pilot aviation members. Was it 20 years? You were only granted your own local after the threat of leaving the union. Growing in numbers and determination also had a lot to do with it. The NJ pilotgroup hasn't forgotten how far they've come on their own and I think most are willing to stand completely alone without the Teamsters.
The argument which appears on this board weekly that fractional owners are rich and won't miss a few extra dollars is the single worst assumption that can be made. Here and on the NJ board I've read posts showing appreciation for the client base. In the case of the NJ pilots, they knew all during contract negotiations that the money was there in the management fees (already being charged) to pay professional wages. The pilots also saw firsthand lots of examples of wasted money. There have been many posts here from Options pilots calling for management to get better at doing their job. No one involved in the industry should expect the pilots to sell short their professional skills/experience. Their salaries should be viewed no differently from the fuel that is purchased--at the market rate--for the planes. The majority of "ultra wealthy" people I know are much cheaper than the "non ultra wealthy". ....

I think that insisting on getting good value for their money is a big concern for lots of people. (I shop in outlet stores... ) That said, realistic consumers don't expect to get a quality steak dinner for the price of a hamburger. Likewise, business minded pax know that if a frac company won't pay the going rate they can't attract and retain the experienced pilots the owners expect to have. I can't imagine any owner being willing to cut corners when it comes to their safety, nor will they want their pilots flying tired. So if it comes down to raising wages or lowering standards, it seems to me the choice is clear.
My regards,
Netjetwife

 

[GerryG]

Several points - and I am short on time tonight so I will be short in response.

My comment about union negotiations and strikes being about ego was about ego on both sides. Very rarely, is it an ego just on one side.

I am no fan of unions (though if you read my posts I was one for a few years). But there is something wrong when most union executives make several times as much in salaray and benefits and perks than the members. You will say so do the corporate executives -- but they work for the shareholders and the shareholders are usually fine with the compensation. Over time, many of your former working colleagues become very comfortable when they switch to a full time union job and no longer have to do the same work as the rest of you. While now your local of the union may be interested in you, do not forget all of the years you had a different local/leadership and all of your dues supported many non-pilot aviation members. Was it 20 years? You were only granted your own local after the threat of leaving the union.

The argument which appears on this board weekly that fractional owners are rich and won't miss a few extra dollars is the single worst assumption that can be made. The majority of "ultra wealthy" people I know are much cheaper than the "non ultra wealthy". If you do not believe me, just ask the waiters at a local fine restaurant. I know many an "ultra wealthy" who have spent 30 minutes arguing over a $1 local call in a hotel even though it was posted trying to argue it was unreasonable. Please, do not confuse the two.

Fly safe.

Just a point of order. No 1108 officer is paid a dime to do their job. All are volunteers.

 

[NJAowner]

Just a point of order. No 1108 officer is paid a dime to do their job. All are volunteers.

That is very commendable. For long term success, try to keep it that way.

Fly safe.

 

[dime line]

Just a point of order. No 1108 officer is paid a dime to do their job. All are volunteers.

That is very commendable. For long term success, try to keep it that way.

Fly safe.

How would you like to be a pax flying into Telluride with a low time pilot and no turbine time. That is what is happening at FLOPS

 

[netjetwife]

Just a point of order. No 1108 officer is paid a dime to do their job. All are volunteers.

Actually, some NJ 1108 leaders (who put in enough hours) now receive a stipend to help offset the income they lose from being pulled off the line and missing out on overtime, extended days, holiday pay etc. Not to mention personal time spent working for the membership. It's only fair and it goes toward ensuring that 1108 can draw talented leadership from the pilotgroup. The IBB contract proves that the pilots are getting an excellent return on their money and you'd be hard pressed to find any NJ pilot unsatisfied with the work performance of 1108.

From a personal perspective, because of my husband's volunteer service we have lost a significant amount of income and family time. I'm sure other leaders/volunteers can say the same. Personally, I think it would be very hypocritical for the pilotgroup to treat their own leaders with less respect for their talent than they insist on receiving from the company for their own experience/skills. The stipend is a concrete way to show appreciation for the burden carried by volunteers and their families and it helps alleviate burn-out. It's a smart practice and the right thing to do. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

How would you like to be a pax flying into Telluride with a low time pilot and no turbine time. That is what is happening at FLOPS

My husband tells me that frac flying is more challenging than the airlines and that's one of the more difficult approaches even for the experienced pilots. Luckily NJA made the right decision when they were faced with the choice of having to raise wages or lower standards. Surely Options will do the right thing as well?! After all, lives depend on it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Actually, some NJ 1108 leaders (who put in enough hours) now receive a stipend to help offset the income they lose from being pulled off the line and missing out on overtime, extended days, holiday pay etc. Not to mention personal time spent working for the membership.

It's not volunteer then, is it?

If there is any kind of compensation, then it can't be voluntary.


It's only fair and it goes toward ensuring that 1108 can draw talented leadership from the pilotgroup.

This must mean you feel that just any pilot can't be a leader, and the "stipend" means that only the talented deserve the additional pay.


The IBB contract proves that the pilots are getting an excellent return on their money and you'd be hard pressed to find any NJ pilot unsatisfied with the work performance of 1108.

From a personal perspective, because of my husband's volunteer service we have lost a significant amount of income and family time. I'm sure other leaders/volunteers can say the same.

Personally, I think it would be very hypocritical for the pilotgroup to treat their own leaders with less respect for their talent than they insist on receiving from the company for their own experience/skills.

What a huge insult to the pilot group at NJ.

The stipend is a concrete way to show appreciation for the burden carried by volunteers and their families and it helps alleviate burn-out. It's a smart practice and the right thing to do. NJW

So it's clear that you have a personal interest in the success as your husband is involved in the union and enjoys the stipend. How much is the stipend, is it really enough to to cover time lost from flying?

What percentage of dues go to the national IBT? How much of the $$$ goes to the big business of belonging to a union?

It is a business, make no mistake about it.

 

[nomore]

I am SO Happy

That Bob Tyler oops I mean B-19 is on my ignore list!

 

[dime line]

What percentage of dues go to the national IBT? How much of the $$$ goes to the big business of belonging to a union?

It is a business, make no mistake about it.

how was that meeting last night?

 

[netjetwife]

Gerry, you are correct that service in 1108 is not a requirement for membership. It is strictly voluntary.

To continue our conversation: While some leadership positions are filled by election, there are plenty of committees to serve on and interested pilots can invest their free time to be trained as a Steward so that they can be qualified to represent pilots in contractual matters. Stewards must be willing to spend a week in CMH as the Steward on duty. The SOD program is so beneficial to operations that it was made part of the contract. The Company and the Union share the expense; NJA pays the base salary and the Union stipend partially makes up for lost earnings. There is also a Virtual SOD who handles calls from home on their week "off". Stewards are on both rotation lists. Elected leaders, committee chairmen, and those serving on joint Company-Union committees also get pulled off the line regularly and spend huge amounts of their "off" time working for the greater good. The stipend doesn't cover that but it is a well-deserved token of the membership's appreciation for dedicated service on their behalf.

'Owner, your reference to Local 284 highlights the reality that not all leaders are of the same caliber. Because of their work ethic and commitment to the pilotgroup the StrongUnion movement attracted some of the best and brightest willing to step up and put service before self. The NJ pilots will tell you that the difference between the Union under 284 and 1108 is like night and day. 1108 pilots are justifiably proud of their Union and the accomplishments of their leaders/volunteers. I regularly receive PMs from pilots expressing appreciation for the dedication of my husband and our family. My thanks to everyone who has written. It means a lot to us.

Shared perspective from a volunteer's wife to NJ pilots: On his last tour my husband got stuck overnight in Chicago (bad wx) coming home from CMH. There was no extra money for that; it goes with serving on a joint committee. His committee responsibility means that he is always available to the pilots and/or the Company and he rarely has a true day off. During IBB my husband missed a lot of flying and lost out on additional earnings. The IBB team worked a 5/2 schedule away from home last summer with no overtime pay. As you can see, the aptly-named stipend only covers a fraction of lost income and free time, but it is important recognition that a volunteer's work/sacrifice does not go unnoticed and thus it helps keep those responsible for the smooth running of the Union from getting burned-out in the process. Kudos to the rank and file members who came up with the stipend idea and posted their support of it on the NJ message board. Burn-out is down and a sense of being appreciated has gone up.

In regards to the speculation of a splinter group: If the NJ pilots ever vote to leave Teamsters you will have even more money to do good things for your own group like a mutual aid fund. If it were up to me, I'd give IBT the boot. I think NJ pilots are ready to solo.

 

[fischman]

Just a clarification of NJW's post.

The elected 1108 officials do get paid out of union dues to compensate for the incredible sacrifices they make for the pilot group. These men and women have spent countless hours of their own PERSONAL time and in several cases tens of thousands of dollars from their own checkbooks to help benefit MY family.

These people do NOT buy beer in my presence. :beer:


Volunteers for 1108 are just that. They go above and beyond the call of duty and care desperately about the pilots at NJA. They do not receive additional money from the union. Since we are volunteers we give what we want when we want. (I am proud to be an 1108 volunteer)