FLOPS Aircraft in MIA

[B19 Flyer]

Name one thing that 1108 has done that has created problems. Just one.​

Here is one.. you only asked for one.
____________________________
Quoted from the New York Times:

"Buffett's Baby Is Taking a Bumpy Ride"

"Mr. Santulli has battled other challenges as well. Intense contract negotiations with pilots last year led, Mr. Santulli asserted, to some of them "not giving 100 percent."

Still, a pilot shortage last year forced NetJets to charter other aircraft.
"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be.

So I had airplanes and no pilots."

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Here is one.. you only asked for one.
____________________________
Quoted from the New York Times:

"Buffett's Baby Is Taking a Bumpy Ride"

"Mr. Santulli has battled other challenges as well. Intense contract negotiations with pilots last year led, Mr. Santulli asserted, to some of them "not giving 100 percent."

Still, a pilot shortage last year forced NetJets to charter other aircraft.
"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be.

So I had airplanes and no pilots."

CONVENIENTLY, after selecting only a small paragraph from the article, and choosing to post ONLY that...you neglected to post the final sentence of your one paragraph quote:

"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be. So I had airplanes and no pilots." The shortage is now over, NetJets said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/business/yourmoney/25jets.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

Problem solved. You're Welcome.

 

[WabiSabi]

Here is one.. you only asked for one.
____________________________
Quoted from the New York Times:

"Buffett's Baby Is Taking a Bumpy Ride"

"Mr. Santulli has battled other challenges as well. Intense contract negotiations with pilots last year led, Mr. Santulli asserted, to some of them "not giving 100 percent."

Still, a pilot shortage last year forced NetJets to charter other aircraft.
"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be.

So I had airplanes and no pilots."

Why don't you answer with something legitimate and answer the other points (not only mine, but the questions you have dodged from everyone)? This means something other than posting a link to some anti union website and your usual canned replies. I triple dog dare ya!

How about, scab?

 

[B19 Flyer]

CONVENIENTLY, after selecting only a small paragraph from the article, and choosing to post ONLY that...you neglected to post the final sentence of your one paragraph quote:

"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be. So I had airplanes and no pilots." The shortage is now over, NetJets said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/business/yourmoney/25jets.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

Problem solved. You're Welcome.

You are right. I missed it, but it was by accident.

It shows how much the union didn't care about how much money the company spent because it was completely stagnated by negotiations.

No union, no negotiations, no charter costs.

Problem solved.

Thank you for pointing out that I overlooked it.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

You are right. I missed it

Stop riiiiight there. Good. You were right to write that part.

 

[Whoosh!]

B19, you really are an idiot. You're incredibly biased, narrow minded, and short sighted. Again, who do you think pushed for the union at Options? Answer- the MAJORITY OF THE PILOTS THEMSELVES.

No one pushed them or forced them or cheated them. It was voluntary. We did it. And guess why? Because our management had all the opportunity in the world to make things better and treat us right waaaaayyy before we voted in the Teamsters. All we got was broken promises over and over.

Think about how much less leverage we would have without the union and where we would be now had they not been voted in. Management would have full reign to continue to take, take, cut, cut without any recourse. They have, they did, and they would continue to. There wouldn't be very little we could do other than resign.

I don't know how you haven't figured this out by now but you and your stupid little FI posts aren't going to change the industry. Unions came to be for good reason.

Something else- if you think the union is/will be the downfall of Options, you may be the most naive individual in the industry. If you are Bob, this only supports my point further. Options' problems go WAY BEYOND the pilots and their contract fight.

 

[netjetwife]

Let's all give credit where credit is due: It's well known that low morale causes productivity to drop so managers know full well that dragging out negotiations has negative repercussions. The NJ contract battle ended when management put down the stick and started handing our carrots. Obviously had the realistic, fair offer come earlier in the process RTS could have solved his recruitment problem much sooner. NJA's record profits proved that motivated workers treated with respect will gladly go the extra mile. That common sense concept was pro-actively put into practice during IBB. RTS has accepted the Union as a full partner and NJA has benefited from the contributions of talented 1108 volunteers who serve on the joint committees.

If Flt Ops managers were smart they'd follow that example and work with the pilots to reach a fair agreement. A good first step would be agreeing to meet as often as the pilots are asking them to. Management's delay tactics are evidence that their side has an ego problem and isn't bargaining in good faith. Pilots on the outside look at that disrespectful attitude and don't apply. Consequently when there's a recruitment problem it's easy to see who's causing it and how they can end it.

 

[dime line]

Let's all give credit where credit is due: It's well known that low morale causes productivity to drop so managers know full well that dragging out negotiations has negative repercussions. The NJ contract battle ended when management put down the stick and started handing our carrots. Obviously had the realistic, fair offer come earlier in the process RTS could have solved his recruitment problem much sooner. NJA's record profits proved that motivated workers treated with respect will gladly go the extra mile. That common sense concept was pro-actively put into practice during IBB. RTS has accepted the Union as a full partner and NJA has benefited from the contributions of talented 1108 volunteers who serve on the joint committees.

If Flt Ops managers were smart they'd follow that example and work with the pilots to reach a fair agreement. A good first step would be agreeing to meet as often as the pilots are asking them to.

Management's delay tactics are evidence that their side has an ego problem and isn't bargaining in good faith.

Pilots on the outside look at that disrespectful attitude and don't apply. Consequently when there's a recruitment problem it's easy to see who's causing it and how they can end it.

You have to be talking about Sherringa, he has the only EGO that is bigger than Flight Options business itself

 

[NJAowner]

Ego

Make no mistake, all serious labor negotiations are (almost entirely) about ego. Please do not think they are about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. It doesn't matter whether it is pilots and management, players and teams, teachers and schools, auto workers and manufacturers. It is about the ego at the top of both side handling the negotiations.

Fly safe.

 

[CaveoFalco]

Make no mistake, all serious labor negotiations are (almost entirely) about ego. Please do not think they are about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. It doesn't matter whether it is pilots and management, players and teams, teachers and schools, auto workers and manufacturers. It is about the ego at the top of both side handling the negotiations.

Fly safe.

Sir,
With all due respect, this is not true with the IBT 1108. Our negotiations were to make sure that NJA was a viable long term career opportunity for your pilots so that NJA did not turn into a revolving door training pipeline to some company like many of the regional airlines have become. Our Union kept an eye on the ball - that was a fair contract negotiated for the families of the crews that fly you and not for the egos of the union leadership.

In 2004, in all likelihood the FO on your airplane was making an NJA wage that made him eligible for government assistance. He may have even been forced to keep multiple jobs to keep his family supported. You paid virtually the same but any profits were not returned as profit sharing or increased salary/benefits or improved working conditions to make a safer product for you.

If you are speaking to the egos of NJA Company management, with the exception of a few, I have not found that to be true either. Others can speak to other Companies, but I respectfully request that you not lump IBT 1108 with any other experiences in sister aviation or nonaviation industries.

 

[WabiSabi]

It shows how much the union didn't care about how much money the company spent because it was completely stagnated by negotiations.

No union, no negotiations, no charter costs.

Problem solved.

Typical management myopia.

It's more like:

Management stalls negotiations, engages campaign of intimidation and FUD, backs pilots into corner, planes have to be chartered.

A more accurate statement is:

No incorrigible management, management stops dragging feet on the inevitable, then no charter costs.

Sorry BOB, the pilots are exercising their right to representation and collective bargaining per the RLA. If you don't like it, take your laissez-faire management fascism to another country, scab.



BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points......scab

 

[CaveoFalco]

...

No union, no negotiations, no charter costs.

Spoken like a plantation owner of 1863.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Make no mistake, all serious labor negotiations are (almost entirely) about ego. Please do not think they are about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. It doesn't matter whether it is pilots and management, players and teams, teachers and schools, auto workers and manufacturers. It is about the ego at the top of both side handling the negotiations.

Fly safe.

I very much agree with what you say. The non-union carrier I work for is focused on getting the job done, and with that comes the life style, profits and satisfaction of a job well done.

Once a contract is in place, ultimately, fractional owners, such as you are the ones that the costs are passed along to.

The union mongers on this board continually talk about the unlimited wealth of the owners and how the market and potential for growth is unlimited, thus the funds will always be available to support the high wages and very conservative work rules demanded by a union.

You've read what I've stated, and my concerns about any union becoming involved in an industry that is still budding. When the adjustment occurs, unions will not react as quick as a non-union entity in adjusting to market pressures, and the entire industry will falter.
The business model has only been somewhat successful with one frac over the long term, and that is NJ. Even long term, the model has only existed in it's current regulatory format for a short period of time.

As an owner and an end user, I'm certain that you must be concerned about the state of the industry and are keenly watching the entire picture, not just that of FLOPS. Each time a union enters one of the very few fractionals in existance, it has the potential of driving up cost to you, the end user. There is a certain point where the costs will rise to the point where owning your own airplane and crew is much more efficient than being involved in a fractional program such as NJ.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Spoken like a plantation owner of 1863.

In 1863 there was a civil war that began over rising costs, taxation and the distribution of natural resources. That had nothing to do about negotiations, it was all about winning or losing, just like NJW alluded to.

In that war, just like when organized labor comes onto a property, there are no winners, and the pain to resurrect the damage caused took decades and to some extent has never been healed.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Typical management myopia.

It's more like:

Management stalls negotiations, engages campaign of intimidation and FUD, backs pilots into corner, planes have to be chartered.

A more accurate statement is:

No incorrigible management, management stops dragging feet on the inevitable, then no charter costs.

Sorry BOB, the pilots are exercising their right to representation and collective bargaining per the RLA. If you don't like it, take your laissez-faire management fascism to another country, scab.



BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points......scab

That doesn't seem to be consistent with all of the honorable posts made about the relationship between 1108 and NJ on these boards.

The article was specific about the NJ negotiations process and the high cost involved when pilots didn't give 100% and the cost of the contract was unknown.

In one post, you decimated all the good things that have been stated about 1108. No wonder there are so many problems with the union intervention at FLOPS.

 

[TheBigMan]

The union mongers on this board continually talk about the unlimited wealth of the owners and how the market and potential for growth is unlimited, thus the funds will always be available to support the high wages and very conservative work rules demanded by a union.

Make no mistake, IT WAS THE "FLOPS MANANGEMENT MONGERS" that used their corporate wealth/greed to hide a safety issue.

What about the incident in ANJ, Sault Ste Marie, MI on Oct. 18/2007 where the Captain, former Program Manager (EMAY) sucked an engine plug, flew the plane for 5 days, then Bilger throws him behind the ASAP program, and the incident was seen by two "IAs"?

No 501's?

Limitations exceeded?

Passengers flown?

Captain performing maintenance on N443LX with no documentation?

How do you think the entire Pilot group and the Owner's feel?

PRICELESS!

 

[WabiSabi]

In one post, you decimated all the good things that have been stated about 1108.

You are really reaching and shooting blind. I'll entertain your anti union moron-athon. How did I "decimate all the good things that have been stated about 1108?"

and, BOB, "because I said so" doesn't cut it.....scab

No wonder there are so many problems with the union intervention at FLOPS.

Well no, the problems come from management cutting pay, benefits, domiciles, hotels, QOL etc. Management's attempted preservation of the old status quo of directing hostility and intimidation to pilots that operated in a safe and legal manner doesn't help either.







BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points......scab

 

[dime line]

Make no mistake, IT WAS THE "FLOPS MANANGEMENT MONGERS" that used their corporate wealth/greed to hide a safety issue.

What about the incident in ANJ, Sault Ste Marie, MI on Oct. 18/2007 where the Captain, former Program Manager (EMAY) sucked an engine plug, flew the plane for 5 days, then Bilger throws him behind the ASAP program, and the incident was seen by two "IAs"?

No 501's?

Limitations exceeded?

Passengers flown?

Captain performing maintenance on N443LX with no documentation?

How do you think the entire Pilot group and the Owner's feel?

PRICELESS!

I think the union hasn't dropped this one!

 

[bchjetdrvr]

:laugh: http://www.flickr.com/photos/22654256@N08/2175374972/sizes/o/

 

[CaveoFalco]

In 1863 there was a civil war that began over rising costs, taxation and the distribution of natural resources. That had nothing to do about negotiations, it was all about winning or losing, just like NJW alluded to.

In that war, just like when organized labor comes onto a property, there are no winners, and the pain to resurrect the damage caused took decades and to some extent has never been healed.

That war was states rights and oppression via slavery. Not surprised you don't see that either since the repulsiveness of slave labor does not part of your vernacular.