FLOPS Aircraft in MIA

[GerryG]

B-19

This B-19 character is a real hoot, isn't he. Although the administrator of this site has confirmed he is a Scab, he continues to deny it claiming to have been management. I know another guy who makes that claim, he told us he was a "checkairmen" at Eastern and although he was one of the first to cross the line, he's not a Scab because he was "management". Well we all know checkairmen are not true management and are always considered part of the union's membership.

It seems to me this guy must be paid to post on this site. Why else would he spend so much time on here. In light of all the abuse he takes, are we to believe he does it just for sport? I don't think anyones that much of a masochist. And I don't believe he is doing this for free. Its clear he is a paid union-buster plying his trade.

Take a look at his posting history. He is all over the place, on the Airline forums and elsewhere. It would be interesting to check and see if Fud and Harassment are representing management at all the properties in which he shows interest.

 

[GerryG]

B19

Duplicate.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So B19, since you belonged to a pilot group that was unionized and yet did not pay Union dues (you said so), were you a Contract Administration Fee Payer instead? That was really smart, you lost your voice through the inability to vote in Union and Contractual affairs. Good move.

Pal, you haven't done your research on my posts. I've never paid union dues, because I never flew for a union carrier, and when I did become part of a union carrier it was through adminsitrative positions and I had the "opportunity" to see the sh*t that unions produce that nobody else ever sees. I have never, and I mean NEVER seen a union that acted on the best behalf of the company, the entire employee group and the best for the industry.

Instead, I've watch single minded MEC leaders soak the company for every last cent and put the company through year after year of turmoil. And then, when the ecomomy gets tender, the union buries it's head in the sand and lets it all crumble around them hurting everybody.

I've been places around unions that few on this board have, and I'll tell you, you need to be careful at what you ask for because if it sounds like it's too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I am not your Pal so please don't refer to me as such. Your loss of money was a result of management ineptitude towards market forces, poor use of technology, governance greed, a hundred other reasons, and not any Union action. The "Union label" just gives you convenient spot to place blame since won't study the forces academically.

Just look at the history of Airline Management Teams that have bounced from Airline to Airline and left a trail of destruction behind (you will have to go somewhere academic for research and wikipedia isn't it). It has happened in the 121 world and now it happens in the fractional world. Too bad you can't place the real blame where blame is due. All the airlines that have gone out business or been through bankruptcy, have done so because of extremely incompetent, irresponsible, corrupt, immoral, if not criminal management. I know from personal experience so spare me your unobjective irrational nonsense.

Yeah, all the successful management that led to record breaking profits from 1995 till 2001 all suddenly just failed in their positions and all became idiots overnight.

It had nothing to do with all the union "industry leading contracts" signed in 1999 and 2000, did it?

Also, NJ was working off the old contract back then right? Lots of turmoil, too, right? By coincidence, with that old contract they managed to slide through and keep their heads above water.

Gee...

 

[dime line]

Pal, you haven't done your research on my posts. I've never paid union dues, because I never flew for a union carrier, and when I did become part of a union carrier it was through adminsitrative positions and I had the "opportunity" to see the sh*t that unions produce that nobody else ever sees. I have never, and I mean NEVER seen a union that acted on the best behalf of the company, the entire employee group and the best for the industry.

Instead, I've watch single minded MEC leaders soak the company for every last cent and put the company through year after year of turmoil. And then, when the ecomomy gets tender, the union buries it's head in the sand and lets it all crumble around them hurting everybody.

I've been places around unions that few on this board have, and I'll tell you, you need to be careful at what you ask for because if it sounds like it's too good to be true, it probably is.

hey Pal,
New Pan Am Plan Asks Big Union Concessions





By AGIS SALPUKAS
Published: October 15, 1987
LEAD: A group of airline experts representing Kirk Kerkorian has presented to a coalition of unions a proposal to take over Pan American World Airways that requires greater concessions from its workers than current management has asked.
A group of airline experts representing Kirk Kerkorian has presented to a coalition of unions a proposal to take over Pan American World Airways that requires greater concessions from its workers than current management has asked.
Under the proposal, Mr. Kerkorian would own a fraction more than 50 percent of the restructured airline, according to a union source, and the employees would hold about 25 percent. Mr. Kerkorian is a Los Angeles financier who has run hotels, casinos and movie companies. One of his latest ventures is MGM Grand Air, a luxury airline.
The investment banker representing the unions, Drexel Burnham Lambert, has been seeking a partner to join the unions in acquiring the airline. To attract buyers, the unions have promised concessions in return for new management and a greater stake for the employees, which now hold about 7 percent of the carrier.
The source estimated that the union concessions would total $900 million over four years. Pan Am management has asked the unions for $180 million a year in concessions, or $720 million in that period.
The source also said that under the plan, the Kerkorian group would take over only the airline and not the rest of the company. The airline would be spun off and the remaining parent company, the Pan Am Corporation, would retain the Pan Am shuttle; Pan Am Express, its commuter affiliate, and Pan Am World Services, which provides management and technical services for government and commercial projects. Some of these units are more profitable than the airline.
The union source said that the impression given by the Kerkorian representatives was that C. Edward Acker, chairman of the Pan Am Corporation, would continue to head the parent company. The source said that this would make it more palatable for Mr. Acker to support the Kerkorian takeover plan even though he and his management team would no longer be operating the airline.
The source said that Mr. Kerkorian's representatives, who included Donald Lloyd Jones, a former airline executive, and Terry Christensen, a representative of the Tracinda Corporation, Mr. Kerkorian's holding company, met with union leaders yesterday at the offices of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, a law firm representing the union group. Two Major Concerns
The source said that the four lead-ers of the union coalition, which consists of the pilots, the flight attendants, the flight engineers and the ticket agents, discussed the proposal Tuesday night and concluded that even though Mr. Kerkorian was asking for more concessions and a controlling stake of the restructured airline, his proposal addressed two major concerns of the coalition. These are the hiring of new management and the need for an infusion of capital.
On the other hand, he said, Pan Am management's plan to revive the airline would cost less in concessions and would increase the shares held by employees without giving control of the company to one person.
The source said that the union leaders now would discuss the Kerkorian plan with their boards.
The source said that it was hard to determine at the meeting which way the four union leaders were leaning. 'Very Serious'
The source said that the Kerkorian group had impressed the unions as wanting to work out a way to take over the airline. ''They were very serious,'' he said.
The source added that the Kerkorian aides did not indicate how much capital Mr. Kerkorian was willing to put up but he said the impression was that it would not be a large amount.
He said that, under the proposal, the employees, in addition to getting more stock, would also receive a profit-sharing program.

 

[dime line]

..........
United Airlines' pilot union agrees to contract concessions


Airline Industry Information, March 28, 2003

.left { float: left; } .right { float: right; } .fa_inline_ad { margin-top: 0; text-align: center; margin-bottom: 20px; margin-right: 10px; } #fa_square_ad.right { margin-top: 20px; margin-left: 20px; } html* #fa_square_ad.right { margin-top: 60px; float: none; } .fa_inline_ad h4 { margin: 0; font-size: 8pt; color: #666; text-transform: uppercase; text-align: center; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; } .fa_inline_ad ul { list-style-type: disc; list-style-position: inside; color: #3769DD; border-top: 1px dotted #333; padding: 5px 0 0; margin: 0 0 20px; } .fa_inline_ad ul li { margin: 0; padding: 0; } /* Fix for IE */ .mostPop { float: left; } .fa_inline_results.left { clear: none; } AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2003 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD

Pilots at United Airlines have reportedly agreed to contract concessions.
The pilots' union leaders have tentatively agreed to a six-year contract which will enable the airline to lower its labour costs by USD1.1bn annually. The agreement - of which the specific details have not been disclosed - is expected to be voted on by the pilots by 11 April 2003.
United Airlines is also looking to form contracts with its machinists and flight attendants, reported The Associated Press

 

[dime line]

Northwest executives get bonuses amid layoffs and losses
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The top two executives of Northwest Airlines got large increases in their compensation in 2002, angering the union leaders the company is lobbying for wage and work rule concessions.

Continental CEO gets smaller bonus

NWA execs get big bonuses

Delta CEO gets $13M pay package

US Airways CEO paid $1.45 million, misses out on more
[/COLOR]

Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson and President Douglas Steenland took no raise in salary but together saw [COLOR=red]their compensation climb by more than $2.5 million through bonuses and stock options that can't be sold for years.[/COLOR]
Anderson and Steenland each were paid salaries of [COLOR=red]$500,000[/COLOR] last year, unchanged from 2001. Anderson received a [COLOR=red]$250,000 bonus[/COLOR] in 2002 and no bonus a year earlier. [COLOR=red]Steenland got a $200,000[/COLOR] bonus last year and no bonus in 2001.
The [COLOR=red]bulk of the pay for both executives came from options on stock that cannot be sold for years and would require the shares to rise in value in order for Anderson and Steenland to profit.[/COLOR] [COLOR=red]But Northwest in 2002 made that prospect easier by lowering the price the stock would have to reach in order to exercise the options.[/COLOR]
The details of executive compensation, revealed in the airline's proxy statement filed Wednesday with the Securities and Exchange Commission, drew caustic reactions from union leaders representing [COLOR=red]Northwest employees facing a fresh round of job cuts, wage reductions and benefit concessions. Many said the rising pay of executives will undermine the call for sacrifice from employees.[/COLOR]
"To me it's obscene," said Mollie Reiley, trustee of Local 2000 of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, representing flight attendants. [COLOR=red]"I thought this was a company in trouble.[/COLOR] This is not about we're all in this together. [SIZE=3][COLOR=red][U]It's about us working to pay them."[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]
Other union leaders echoed the theme. "It's going to be obvious that here we are a company that's fighting for its life and expecting to have employees pay their way through while the rich get richer," said Bobby DePace, president of District 143 International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.
Jim Atkinson, president of the Local 33 of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association, termed the compensation gains of the top officers in Northwest's executive suite "immoral."
Gary Helton, interim secretary-treasurer of the Professional Flight Attendants Association, which is seeking to represent Northwest flight attendants, said the executive pay is, "in a word, ludicrous."
Northwest's recent announcement of plans to cut 4,900 jobs will bring the airline's worldwide employment to 39,000, down from 53,500 at the end of the year 2000.
The carrier had no reaction to the comments of union officials, but spokesman Bill Mellon said the company's two top officers have taken no salary increase since they assumed their posts in 2001.
What's more, he said Northwest's CEO made less than comparable executives at Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines and Alaska Air. Northwest is the nation's fourth-largest carrier. Delta is third-largest and Continental is fifth. Northwest's revenue is nearly four times that of Alaska Air.
"Executive compensation at Northwest is consistently significantly lower than that paid at other major Minnesota companies," Mellon said.
[SIZE=3][COLOR=red][U]Total compensation for Anderson, Northwest CEO, was $2,802,788 for the year ended Dec. 31. His compensation was up 126.3 percent from the previous year's total compensation of $1,238,305.[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][COLOR=red][U]Anderson's package included other compensation of $111,638 and restricted stock awards of $1,941,150[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]. During the year Anderson exercised no stock options and was given no new options.
[I]Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.[/I]

 

[CaveoFalco]

Yeah, all the successful management that led to record breaking profits from 1995 till 2001 all suddenly just failed in their positions and all became idiots overnight.

It had nothing to do with all the union "industry leading contracts" signed in 1999 and 2000, did it?

Also, NJ was working off the old contract back then right? Lots of turmoil, too, right? By coincidence, with that old contract they managed to slide through and keep their heads above water.

Gee...

The money not paid to to NJA pilots in 1998-2005, was not used to keep NJ Inc afloat. During that time NJ, Inc. built NJE on the backs of the pilots of NJA. While NJ, Inc. was raking in the money and funding Mr. Buffet's pot o' gold that he now is giving to charity, pilots at NJA were on poverty level wages, barely able to make ends meet. The richest of the richest were being flown by aviation's poorest of the poor. You don't do you your research so you have no idea though.

There was not turmoil at NJA until the pilot group did their research, determined their worth, banded together, became businessmen of their own affairs, and demanded the wages/benefits commensurate with the superior product that they have been providing since they created the industry and that NJ Inc could afford to pay. The money NJ Inc, shipped overseas returned home, and NJA pilots are now paid what the rightly earn. Bill Boisture was too stupid to realize that NJA pilots were not going to be modern day slaves. Thankfully, RTS stepped in a gave Boisture the boot.

Had NJA pilots been non-union, NJA pilots would be still working at poverty level wages with crappy benefits - that is a fact - they were doing it even when they were Union.

Yeah, all the successful management that led to record breaking profits from 1995 till 2001 all suddenly just failed in their positions and all became idiots overnight.

None of the companies that went under were efficient nor adaptive and all lacked vision by management. They failed to direct change and therefore became reactionary to market forces instead of driving those forces. They dismissed carriers such as SWA (a very successful union carrier) as a flash in the pan and they illegally and immorally tried to legislate them out of business so they did not have to change. Company management made stupid acquisitions, spent billions in pursuing mergers that never occurred, bought too many types of aircraft to successfully and efficiently manage and maintain, just to name a few amongst a litany of other poor decisions. It was their malfeasance, and not 9/11 nor Unions that set in motion the downward spiral that has trapped the industry today.

 

[dime line]

Northwest Airlines requires union concessions


Airline Industry Information, June 27, 2003

AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2003 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD


Northwest Airlines has revealed that its 3,000 managers will not take pay cuts until at least one of the airline's major unions accepts concessions.
In April, a memo to Northwest Airlines' salaried employees announced pay cuts of 5% to 15%. The airline's CEO stated that managers must "share in the salary and benefit reductions needed" to keep the carrier from a bankruptcy filing. The reductions were expected to be implemented on 1 July.
However, the airline has stated that the salary cuts were contingent on at least one union agreeing to concessions. None has agreed so far.

 

[WabiSabi]

I'm going to make this wonderfully clear.

First, I don't know what "other points" you are talking about, and at this point, even if I did, I wouldn't waste my time answering them for you.

:laugh:What a lame cop out.:laugh:

The same points that everyone has repeatedly made....that you have dodged (i.e. you claim management is on the forefront of safety. I have shown you an example of how FLOPS management has usurped safety and how the 1108 is championing safety. No reply from you (many many others))


What do you mean that you won't waste your time? You have "wasted your time" with answering my other posts. Why are you so selective? I'll answer that for you. It's not that you don't know what points I and others are talking about, it is that you're talking out of your ass and you have no significant argument. Not to mention that you're a coward, intellectually and otherwise.

This most recent example;

In one post, you decimated all the good things that have been stated about 1108. No wonder there are so many problems with the union intervention at FLOPS.

I asked you how you came up with this and you reply that you don't know about other points? Any more stupid questions?

Next, the word "Scab" is one not to use lightly, because it encompasses many people that I would personally hold in high regard because they all told the unions to shove it up where the sun don't shine.

Last but not least. Crossing the picket line is different from dreaming about crossing a picket line which is something I've never had the opportunity to do. I've never paid a nickel in union dues, and I never will. The union has already stolen too much money out of my pocket.

BOB, you crossed the line. You are a scab, scab.



BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points.....scab

 

[B19 Flyer]

The carrier had no reaction to the comments of union officials, but spokesman Bill Mellon said the company's two top officers have taken no salary increase since they assumed their posts in 2001.
What's more, he said Northwest's CEO made less than comparable executives at Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines and Alaska Air. Northwest is the nation's fourth-largest carrier. Delta is third-largest and Continental is fifth. Northwest's revenue is nearly four times that of Alaska Air.
"Executive compensation at Northwest is consistently significantly lower than that paid at other major Minnesota companies," Mellon said.
Total compensation for Anderson, Northwest CEO, was $2,802,788 for the year ended Dec. 31. His compensation was up 126.3 percent from the previous year's total compensation of $1,238,305.
Anderson's package included other compensation of $111,638 and restricted stock awards of $1,941,150. During the year Anderson exercised no stock options and was given no new options.
Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

It's amazing how unions want to have compensation that compares them against their counterparts, but when CEO pay is compared against their counterparts, it's wrong.

Classic double standard by unions.

When an airline CEO moves on to a different business, they don't take pay cuts, they simply just change businesses. That is their market value.

You just can't deal with it, so get over it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Why are you so selective?

My point isn 't to educate the ignorant, my point is to show the new guys that haven't been burned by organized labor yet how radical and destructive the thinking is.

How I'm treated is how they will be treated should they object.

All of you bite for it every single day.

 

[1po'dpilot]

My point isn 't to educate the ignorant, my point is to show the new guys that haven't been burned by organized labor yet how radical and destructive the thinking is.

How I'm treated is how they will be treated should they object.

All of you bite for it every single day.

It's good that your point isn't to educate the ignorant, if it were you would have to start with yourself SCAB.

 

[CaveoFalco]

It's amazing how unions want to have compensation that compares them against their counterparts, but when CEO pay is compared against their counterparts, it's wrong.

Classic double standard by unions.

When an airline CEO moves on to a different business, they don't take pay cuts, they simply just change businesses. That is their market value.

You just can't deal with it, so get over it.

Most if not all airline CEOs are overpaid by a long shot for the value they bring to an organization and for what they really do. Justifying airline CEO pay against each other when just about all of them in modern history have ruined the Company's they were charged to lead is preposterous. It is like justifying slavery in South Carolina because North Carolina had it.

Thanks God for unions - if it wasn't for APA, Don Carty would have ruined American Airlines. On behalf of upper management, he stole tens of millions of dollars from that Airline.

 

[WabiSabi]

My point isn 't to educate the ignorant, my point is to show the new guys that haven't been burned by organized labor yet how radical and destructive the thinking is.

Yet another cop-out. "Destructive" is EXACTLY the word to describe FLOPS management. This has been clearly shown to you over and over and again, your argument is so vacuous that you're to afraid of responding. I can see how that this is all you can muster being that you have yet to present a logical argument that holds any amount of water. Don't hold your breath because nobody is stupid enough to follow you.

How I'm treated is how they will be treated should they object.

All of you bite for it every single day.

No BOB, you are not a message board martyr. You're just a knee-jerk reactionary with a loud mouth that has produced nothing but drivel. There is room for intelligent (key word) debate and dissent.

BOB, If you're the only hope for an anti-union voice on these message boards, then you management lackey's internet propaganda campaign is in vain, scab.

 

[netjetwife]

Make no mistake, all serious labor negotiations are (almost entirely) about ego. Please do not think they are about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. ... It is about the ego at the top of both side handling the negotiations....

This generalization partially applied during the NJ contract talks prior to the signing of the 2005 CBA. Here are 2 indicators of which side was the egotistical one: 1) Wages qualified pilots for government assistance (as low as 28K) and 2) a company leader (Boisture) got booted shortly after an agreement was reached. The grass roots movement that brought new leaders (StrongUnion) to the table was made possible because grossly underpaid members were so overwhelmingly supportive of SU's call for professional compensation commiserate with the pilotgroup's responsibility and contribution. Recall that over 90% voted to strike. For the NJ pilots it was clearly about economics and lifestyle (home basing, schedules, etc) --not ego. The same applies to the underpaid Options pilotgroup whose benefits are also below the industry standard.

Let's all talk about a recent (fractional) Company-Union interaction. When it comes to negotiations, Interest Based Bargaining is a different animal altogether. As my primary source described it: think of brain-storming sessions with a joint commitment to finding fair solutions to common concerns. Absolutely long-term viability of the company is very much a top concern shared by the NJ pilots and their families. Contrary to the FUD being desperately hurled by B19 it is possible to work together. The final IBB contract offered a 3rd schedule, paid personal time off, pay raises, signing bonuses, and 100 Crew Bases--up from the paltry 5 of Boisture's domicile debacle. IBB, voluntarily entered into 3 yrs early, was definitely about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. Those are also the reasons workers organize their collective efforts to win/achieve parity with their industry peers. Every hour worked at sub-par wages is a loss for a frac pilot and his/her family.

As evidence of NJA's awareness of the damage caused by an over-inflated ego a personnel manager (RD) who lacked the cooperative spirit of IBB and refused to comply with the contract is no longer employed there. Changes were also made in training when egos got in the way there.

Basic fairness mandates that 1108 be judged on their own merits and their own track record. Nothing else is relevant in the fractional industry and inapplicable, prejudiced comments point to a hidden agenda by B19/Chicken Little who suspiciously wants underpaid frac pilots to think--in spite of 1108's excellent, fair record--that standing together for parity will cause the sky to fall.... The drum B19/VI incessantly bangs .. FUD FUD FUD .. just tells us all how out of step he is with common sense and economic reality.

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS RESPONSIBLE FOR LIVES AND THEY SHOULD BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

 

[dime line]

B19 is a paid Ford and Harrison goon, he is doing his job on this board

Well said NJwife

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks, DL. I wholeheartedly agree that B19 has no credibility and his purpose in posting is extremely suspect. 1108 pilots understand that they are the Union. They are the ones who have decided to stand up together for their right to work under a contract. The pilots themselves are best suited to represent their own interests--no question about it.

All frac pilots essentially do the same job so big disparities in pay are not justified. The companies need to stop balancing the books on the back of the pilotgroup and pay these professionals fairly. No one can look at the low wages in the industry and honestly suggest that the pilots are asking for a lavish salary. B19 isn't just anti-union; the end result is that he's anti-pilot. Frac families give up a lot for the sake of the job and that must be compensated for. Working with the pilots is the right thing to do for the entire company and the owners. Having burned out, stressed out pilots wondering how they're going to make ends meet is a penny-wise, pound-foolish approach with potentially dangerous consequences. NJA and 1108 have proved that there's a better way and they deserve credit for that accomplishment. The industry standard has been set and every frac pilot is justified in seeking a comparable contract that recognizes the valuable contribution they make with every flight. Good Luck at the bargaining table! NJW

 

[NJAowner]

Several points - and I am short on time tonight so I will be short in response.

My comment about union negotiations and strikes being about ego was about ego on both sides. Very rarely, is it an ego just on one side.

I am no fan of unions (though if you read my posts I was one for a few years). But there is something wrong when most union executives make several times as much in salaray and benefits and perks than the members. You will say so do the corporate executives -- but they work for the shareholders and the shareholders are usually fine with the compensation. Over time, many of your former working colleagues become very comfortable when they switch to a full time union job and no longer have to do the same work as the rest of you. While now your local of the union may be interested in you, do not forget all of the years you had a different local/leadership and all of your dues supported many non-pilot aviation members. Was it 20 years? You were only granted your own local after the threat of leaving the union.

The argument which appears on this board weekly that fractional owners are rich and won't miss a few extra dollars is the single worst assumption that can be made. The majority of "ultra wealthy" people I know are much cheaper than the "non ultra wealthy". If you do not believe me, just ask the waiters at a local fine restaurant. I know many an "ultra wealthy" who have spent 30 minutes arguing over a $1 local call in a hotel even though it was posted trying to argue it was unreasonable. Please, do not confuse the two.

Fly safe.

 

[netjetwife]

... My comment about union negotiations and strikes being about ego was about ego on both sides. Very rarely, is it an ego just on one side. For the reasons I listed above the NJ pilots are in the rare occurrence category. 1108 is run by volunteers who wouldn't be motivated to sacrifice personal time if they were just propping up an ego.

I am no fan of unions (though if you read my posts I was one for a few years). It may interest readers to learn that the CEO of NJA stated that he is glad the pilotgroup is unionized because 1108 helps keep the company safe by empowering the pilots to resist pressure from schedulers. Contractual work rules are a safety net. But there is something wrong when most union executives make several times as much in salary and benefits and perks than the members. If you are referring to Teamsters National then I agree. 1108 is not like the IBT and I'd support any splinter movement for the NJ pilots to give Teamsters the boot. For the record, 1108 volunteers/leaders can actually wind up losing income (overtime, holiday pay, etc) when they don't get to fly because of Union and/or joint committee projects. That has often been the case with my husband. ... Over time, many of your former working colleagues become very comfortable when they switch to a full time union job and no longer have to do the same work as the rest of you. That is not applicable to 1108. In reality, serving the greater good entails a lot of personal/family sacrifice and more hours. Most of the elected leaders and all of the volunteers still fly the line, as my husband does, plus they do Union work at home. The leaders and committee chairmen are always available to the membership whereas the line pilots can totally disconnect from the job on their days off. While now your local of the union may be interested in you (The pilots themselves are the Local. Their self-interest got them where they are today--leading the industry). do not forget all of the years you had a different local/leadership and all of your dues supported many non-pilot aviation members. Was it 20 years? You were only granted your own local after the threat of leaving the union. Growing in numbers and determination also had a lot to do with it. The NJ pilotgroup hasn't forgotten how far they've come on their own and I think most are willing to stand completely alone without the Teamsters.
The argument which appears on this board weekly that fractional owners are rich and won't miss a few extra dollars is the single worst assumption that can be made. Here and on the NJ board I've read posts showing appreciation for the client base. In the case of the NJ pilots, they knew all during contract negotiations that the money was there in the management fees (already being charged) to pay professional wages. The pilots also saw firsthand lots of examples of wasted money. There have been many posts here from Options pilots calling for management to get better at doing their job. No one involved in the industry should expect the pilots to sell short their professional skills/experience. Their salaries should be viewed no differently from the fuel that is purchased--at the market rate--for the planes. The majority of "ultra wealthy" people I know are much cheaper than the "non ultra wealthy". ....

I think that insisting on getting good value for their money is a big concern for lots of people. (I shop in outlet stores... ) That said, realistic consumers don't expect to get a quality steak dinner for the price of a hamburger. Likewise, business minded pax know that if a frac company won't pay the going rate they can't attract and retain the experienced pilots the owners expect to have. I can't imagine any owner being willing to cut corners when it comes to their safety, nor will they want their pilots flying tired. So if it comes down to raising wages or lowering standards, it seems to me the choice is clear.
My regards,
Netjetwife

 

[GerryG]

Several points - and I am short on time tonight so I will be short in response.

My comment about union negotiations and strikes being about ego was about ego on both sides. Very rarely, is it an ego just on one side.

I am no fan of unions (though if you read my posts I was one for a few years). But there is something wrong when most union executives make several times as much in salaray and benefits and perks than the members. You will say so do the corporate executives -- but they work for the shareholders and the shareholders are usually fine with the compensation. Over time, many of your former working colleagues become very comfortable when they switch to a full time union job and no longer have to do the same work as the rest of you. While now your local of the union may be interested in you, do not forget all of the years you had a different local/leadership and all of your dues supported many non-pilot aviation members. Was it 20 years? You were only granted your own local after the threat of leaving the union.

The argument which appears on this board weekly that fractional owners are rich and won't miss a few extra dollars is the single worst assumption that can be made. The majority of "ultra wealthy" people I know are much cheaper than the "non ultra wealthy". If you do not believe me, just ask the waiters at a local fine restaurant. I know many an "ultra wealthy" who have spent 30 minutes arguing over a $1 local call in a hotel even though it was posted trying to argue it was unreasonable. Please, do not confuse the two.

Fly safe.

Just a point of order. No 1108 officer is paid a dime to do their job. All are volunteers.

 

[NJAowner]

Just a point of order. No 1108 officer is paid a dime to do their job. All are volunteers.

That is very commendable. For long term success, try to keep it that way.

Fly safe.

 

[dime line]

Just a point of order. No 1108 officer is paid a dime to do their job. All are volunteers.

That is very commendable. For long term success, try to keep it that way.

Fly safe.

How would you like to be a pax flying into Telluride with a low time pilot and no turbine time. That is what is happening at FLOPS

 

[netjetwife]

Just a point of order. No 1108 officer is paid a dime to do their job. All are volunteers.

Actually, some NJ 1108 leaders (who put in enough hours) now receive a stipend to help offset the income they lose from being pulled off the line and missing out on overtime, extended days, holiday pay etc. Not to mention personal time spent working for the membership. It's only fair and it goes toward ensuring that 1108 can draw talented leadership from the pilotgroup. The IBB contract proves that the pilots are getting an excellent return on their money and you'd be hard pressed to find any NJ pilot unsatisfied with the work performance of 1108.

From a personal perspective, because of my husband's volunteer service we have lost a significant amount of income and family time. I'm sure other leaders/volunteers can say the same. Personally, I think it would be very hypocritical for the pilotgroup to treat their own leaders with less respect for their talent than they insist on receiving from the company for their own experience/skills. The stipend is a concrete way to show appreciation for the burden carried by volunteers and their families and it helps alleviate burn-out. It's a smart practice and the right thing to do. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

How would you like to be a pax flying into Telluride with a low time pilot and no turbine time. That is what is happening at FLOPS

My husband tells me that frac flying is more challenging than the airlines and that's one of the more difficult approaches even for the experienced pilots. Luckily NJA made the right decision when they were faced with the choice of having to raise wages or lower standards. Surely Options will do the right thing as well?! After all, lives depend on it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Actually, some NJ 1108 leaders (who put in enough hours) now receive a stipend to help offset the income they lose from being pulled off the line and missing out on overtime, extended days, holiday pay etc. Not to mention personal time spent working for the membership.

It's not volunteer then, is it?

If there is any kind of compensation, then it can't be voluntary.


It's only fair and it goes toward ensuring that 1108 can draw talented leadership from the pilotgroup.

This must mean you feel that just any pilot can't be a leader, and the "stipend" means that only the talented deserve the additional pay.


The IBB contract proves that the pilots are getting an excellent return on their money and you'd be hard pressed to find any NJ pilot unsatisfied with the work performance of 1108.

From a personal perspective, because of my husband's volunteer service we have lost a significant amount of income and family time. I'm sure other leaders/volunteers can say the same.

Personally, I think it would be very hypocritical for the pilotgroup to treat their own leaders with less respect for their talent than they insist on receiving from the company for their own experience/skills.

What a huge insult to the pilot group at NJ.

The stipend is a concrete way to show appreciation for the burden carried by volunteers and their families and it helps alleviate burn-out. It's a smart practice and the right thing to do. NJW

So it's clear that you have a personal interest in the success as your husband is involved in the union and enjoys the stipend. How much is the stipend, is it really enough to to cover time lost from flying?

What percentage of dues go to the national IBT? How much of the $$$ goes to the big business of belonging to a union?

It is a business, make no mistake about it.

 

[nomore]

I am SO Happy

That Bob Tyler oops I mean B-19 is on my ignore list!

 

[dime line]

What percentage of dues go to the national IBT? How much of the $$$ goes to the big business of belonging to a union?

It is a business, make no mistake about it.

how was that meeting last night?

 

[netjetwife]

Gerry, you are correct that service in 1108 is not a requirement for membership. It is strictly voluntary.

To continue our conversation: While some leadership positions are filled by election, there are plenty of committees to serve on and interested pilots can invest their free time to be trained as a Steward so that they can be qualified to represent pilots in contractual matters. Stewards must be willing to spend a week in CMH as the Steward on duty. The SOD program is so beneficial to operations that it was made part of the contract. The Company and the Union share the expense; NJA pays the base salary and the Union stipend partially makes up for lost earnings. There is also a Virtual SOD who handles calls from home on their week "off". Stewards are on both rotation lists. Elected leaders, committee chairmen, and those serving on joint Company-Union committees also get pulled off the line regularly and spend huge amounts of their "off" time working for the greater good. The stipend doesn't cover that but it is a well-deserved token of the membership's appreciation for dedicated service on their behalf.

'Owner, your reference to Local 284 highlights the reality that not all leaders are of the same caliber. Because of their work ethic and commitment to the pilotgroup the StrongUnion movement attracted some of the best and brightest willing to step up and put service before self. The NJ pilots will tell you that the difference between the Union under 284 and 1108 is like night and day. 1108 pilots are justifiably proud of their Union and the accomplishments of their leaders/volunteers. I regularly receive PMs from pilots expressing appreciation for the dedication of my husband and our family. My thanks to everyone who has written. It means a lot to us.

Shared perspective from a volunteer's wife to NJ pilots: On his last tour my husband got stuck overnight in Chicago (bad wx) coming home from CMH. There was no extra money for that; it goes with serving on a joint committee. His committee responsibility means that he is always available to the pilots and/or the Company and he rarely has a true day off. During IBB my husband missed a lot of flying and lost out on additional earnings. The IBB team worked a 5/2 schedule away from home last summer with no overtime pay. As you can see, the aptly-named stipend only covers a fraction of lost income and free time, but it is important recognition that a volunteer's work/sacrifice does not go unnoticed and thus it helps keep those responsible for the smooth running of the Union from getting burned-out in the process. Kudos to the rank and file members who came up with the stipend idea and posted their support of it on the NJ message board. Burn-out is down and a sense of being appreciated has gone up.

In regards to the speculation of a splinter group: If the NJ pilots ever vote to leave Teamsters you will have even more money to do good things for your own group like a mutual aid fund. If it were up to me, I'd give IBT the boot. I think NJ pilots are ready to solo.

 

[fischman]

Just a clarification of NJW's post.

The elected 1108 officials do get paid out of union dues to compensate for the incredible sacrifices they make for the pilot group. These men and women have spent countless hours of their own PERSONAL time and in several cases tens of thousands of dollars from their own checkbooks to help benefit MY family.

These people do NOT buy beer in my presence. :beer:


Volunteers for 1108 are just that. They go above and beyond the call of duty and care desperately about the pilots at NJA. They do not receive additional money from the union. Since we are volunteers we give what we want when we want. (I am proud to be an 1108 volunteer)