FLOPS Aircraft in MIA

[B19 Flyer]

That war was states rights and oppression via slavery. Not surprised you don't see that either since the repulsiveness of slave labor does not part of your vernacular.

You can't even get the beginning of the American Civil War right, no wonder you need a union to speak for you. Slavery was but a small part of the big picture.

Just like when organized labor comes into a company. Work rules, QOL issues and payroll for pilots are only a small part of the big picture of an air carrier.

And I honestly hope, that you are not even beginning to compare being a pilot at any air carrier to slavery in the south before the civil war...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War


The origins of the American Civil War lay in the complex issues of slavery, competing understandings of federalism, party politics, expansionism, sectionalism, tariffs, economics and modernization in the Antebellum Period.

The United States was a nation divided into two distinct regions separated by the Mason-Dixon line. New England, the Northeast and the Midwest had a rapidly growing economy based on family farms, industry, mining, commerce and transportation, with a large and rapidly growing urban population and no slavery outside the border states. Its growth was fed by a high birth rate and large numbers of European immigrants, especially Irish, British, German, Polish and Scandinavian.

The South was dominated by a settled plantation system based on slavery, with rapid growth taking place in the Southwest such as Texas based on high birth rates and low immigration from Europe. There were few cities or towns, and little manufacturing except in border areas. Although slave owners controlled politics and economics, two-thirds of the Southern whites owned no slaves and usually were engaged in subsistence agriculture.

Overall, the Northern population was growing much more quickly than the Southern population, which made it increasingly difficult for the South to continue to control the national government. Southerners were worried about the relative political decline of their region because the North was growing much faster in terms of population and industrial output.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Make no mistake, IT WAS THE "FLOPS MANANGEMENT MONGERS" that used their corporate wealth/greed to hide a safety issue.

What about the incident in ANJ, Sault Ste Marie, MI on Oct. 18/2007 where the Captain, former Program Manager (EMAY) sucked an engine plug, flew the plane for 5 days, then Bilger throws him behind the ASAP program, and the incident was seen by two "IAs"?

No 501's?

Limitations exceeded?

Passengers flown?

Captain performing maintenance on N443LX with no documentation?

How do you think the entire Pilot group and the Owner's feel?

PRICELESS!

Your post doesn't make sense.

I made an observation to a NJ owner about the union supporters consistantly stating that they serve the richest people on the planet, thus the finances are never going to be a problem and the company is never going to come upon hard times, and you came up with this?

What on earth do the two of them have in common? Please help me understand.

 

[B19 Flyer]

BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points......scab

I'm going to make this wonderfully clear.

First, I don't know what "other points" you are talking about, and at this point, even if I did, I wouldn't waste my time answering them for you.

Next, the word "Scab" is one not to use lightly, because it encompasses many people that I would personally hold in high regard because they all told the unions to shove it up where the sun don't shine.

Last but not least. Crossing the picket line is different from dreaming about crossing a picket line which is something I've never had the opportunity to do. I've never paid a nickel in union dues, and I never will. The union has already stolen too much money out of my pocket.

 

[CaveoFalco]

You can't even get the beginning of the American Civil War right, no wonder you need a union to speak for you. Slavery was but a small part of the big picture.

Just like when organized labor comes into a company. Work rules, QOL issues and payroll for pilots are only a small part of the big picture of an air carrier.

And I honestly hope, that you are not even beginning to compare being a pilot at any air carrier to slavery in the south before the civil war...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War


The origins of the American Civil War lay in the complex issues of slavery, competing understandings of federalism, party politics, expansionism, sectionalism, tariffs, economics and modernization in the Antebellum Period.

The United States was a nation divided into two distinct regions separated by the Mason-Dixon line. New England, the Northeast and the Midwest had a rapidly growing economy based on family farms, industry, mining, commerce and transportation, with a large and rapidly growing urban population and no slavery outside the border states. Its growth was fed by a high birth rate and large numbers of European immigrants, especially Irish, British, German, Polish and Scandinavian.

The South was dominated by a settled plantation system based on slavery, with rapid growth taking place in the Southwest such as Texas based on high birth rates and low immigration from Europe. There were few cities or towns, and little manufacturing except in border areas. Although slave owners controlled politics and economics, two-thirds of the Southern whites owned no slaves and usually were engaged in subsistence agriculture.

Overall, the Northern population was growing much more quickly than the Southern population, which made it increasingly difficult for the South to continue to control the national government. Southerners were worried about the relative political decline of their region because the North was growing much faster in terms of population and industrial output.

Nice job! You just proved my two points. Federalism and slavery were very much a part of the civil war. The plantation owners in the south wanted to dictate to the federal government, realized they were losing power, and very much did not want the federal government banning slavery. Of course you are not smart enough to develop nor present your own thoughts on any subject of magnitude which is why you cut and paste from wikipedia (points that support my first statement) in much the same way that you cut and past your anti-union crap. My first reference to you and the plantation owners of 1863 was in reference to slavery but, like I said, your anti-labor position spouted routinely on this board, shows you have no aversion to slavery.

 

[dime line]

I'm going to make this wonderfully clear.

First, I don't know what "other points" you are talking about, and at this point, even if I did, I wouldn't waste my time answering them for you.

Next, the word "Scab" is one not to use lightly, because it encompasses many people that I would personally hold in high regard because they all told the unions to shove it up where the sun don't shine.

Last but not least. Crossing the picket line is different from dreaming about crossing a picket line which is something I've never had the opportunity to do. I've never paid a nickel in union dues, and I never will.

The union has already stolen too much money out of my pocket

.

iI hope they steal more from your pocket, cause the stuff you spew out is worthless. You have no business being in aviation or any other industry for that fact.

 

[CaveoFalco]

I'm going to make this wonderfully clear.

First, I don't know what "other points" you are talking about, and at this point, even if I did, I wouldn't waste my time answering them for you.

Next, the word "Scab" is one not to use lightly, because it encompasses many people that I would personally hold in high regard because they all told the unions to shove it up where the sun don't shine.

Last but not least. Crossing the picket line is different from dreaming about crossing a picket line which is something I've never had the opportunity to do. I've never paid a nickel in union dues, and I never will. The union has already stolen too much money out of my pocket.

If you have never paid a nickel in Union dues, the Union could not have stole any money out of your pocket. Please, try to make some sense in your argument - never mind, you just hurt your own cause which ultimately benefits labor and unions. Please keep your silliness - it is very beneficial to the Union movement. I am beginning to think you are a pro-Union guy that is actually making the anti-union crowd look so inept that organizing will never be a problem.

 

[Hobbes]

Since Bob here is a SCAB, and doing nothing but flinging FUD, could we basically call him a "SCUD missile?" Similar to the wildly inaccurate and ineffective munitions employed by the poorly trained inept military of Saddam Husseins oppressive regime?

SCUD!

 

[B19 Flyer]

If you have never paid a nickel in Union dues, the Union could not have stole any money out of your pocket. Please, try to make some sense in your argument - never mind, you just hurt your own cause which ultimately benefits labor and unions. Please keep your silliness - it is very beneficial to the Union movement. I am beginning to think you are a pro-Union guy that is actually making the anti-union crowd look so inept that organizing will never be a problem.

I have personally lost tens of thousands of dollars of retirement and payroll as a direct result of union action(s) that were widely known within the industry as radical and not necessary.We won't even get into the loss I incurred by selling my house under market value and relocation expenses.

Let me tell you pal, that was theft out of my pocket and all the other people that were laid off because unions couldn't get their act together and shredded the companies needlessly. Both times the union had all the opportunity in the world to stop it from happening and they just stayed their like the bunch of idiots that they are and let all the employees lose their jobs, their insurance and their careers. That is theft of the highest degree.

Do I have a vast distaste for unions, you betcha there pal... and I think that any young guy that is getting involved in a union really needs to think twice before placing their trust in unions because they have always maintained a scorched earth attitude.
And yes, you want to know one of the many reasons that I post against unions... this is one of the big ones.

 

[CaveoFalco]

I have personally lost tens of thousands of dollars of retirement and payroll as a direct result of union action(s) that were widely known within the industry as radical and not necessary.We won't even get into the loss I incurred by selling my house under market value and relocation expenses.

Let me tell you pal, that was theft out of my pocket and all the other people that were laid off because unions couldn't get their act together and shredded the companies needlessly. Both times the union had all the opportunity in the world to stop it from happening and they just stayed their like the bunch of idiots that they are and let all the employees lose their jobs, their insurance and their careers. That is theft of the highest degree.

Do I have a vast distaste for unions, you betcha there pal... and I think that any young guy that is getting involved in a union really needs to think twice before placing their trust in unions because they have always maintained a scorched earth attitude.
And yes, you want to know one of the many reasons that I post against unions... this is one of the big ones.

I am not your Pal so please don't refer to me as such. Your loss of money was a result of management ineptitude towards market forces, poor use of technology, governance greed, a hundred other reasons, and not any Union action. The "Union label" just gives you convenient spot to place blame since won't study the forces academically.

Just look at the history of Airline Management Teams that have bounced from Airline to Airline and left a trail of destruction behind (you will have to go somewhere academic for research and wikipedia isn't it). It has happened in the 121 world and now it happens in the fractional world. Too bad you can't place the real blame where blame is due. All the airlines that have gone out business or been through bankruptcy, have done so because of extremely incompetent, irresponsible, corrupt, immoral, if not criminal management. I know from personal experience so spare me your unobjective irrational nonsense.

 

[CaveoFalco]

So B19, since you belonged to a pilot group that was unionized and yet did not pay Union dues (you said so), were you a Contract Administration Fee Payer instead? That was really smart, you lost your voice through the inability to vote in Union and Contractual affairs. Good move.

 

[GerryG]

B-19

This B-19 character is a real hoot, isn't he. Although the administrator of this site has confirmed he is a Scab, he continues to deny it claiming to have been management. I know another guy who makes that claim, he told us he was a "checkairmen" at Eastern and although he was one of the first to cross the line, he's not a Scab because he was "management". Well we all know checkairmen are not true management and are always considered part of the union's membership.

It seems to me this guy must be paid to post on this site. Why else would he spend so much time on here. In light of all the abuse he takes, are we to believe he does it just for sport? I don't think anyones that much of a masochist. And I don't believe he is doing this for free. Its clear he is a paid union-buster plying his trade.

Take a look at his posting history. He is all over the place, on the Airline forums and elsewhere. It would be interesting to check and see if Fud and Harassment are representing management at all the properties in which he shows interest.

 

[GerryG]

B19

Duplicate.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So B19, since you belonged to a pilot group that was unionized and yet did not pay Union dues (you said so), were you a Contract Administration Fee Payer instead? That was really smart, you lost your voice through the inability to vote in Union and Contractual affairs. Good move.

Pal, you haven't done your research on my posts. I've never paid union dues, because I never flew for a union carrier, and when I did become part of a union carrier it was through adminsitrative positions and I had the "opportunity" to see the sh*t that unions produce that nobody else ever sees. I have never, and I mean NEVER seen a union that acted on the best behalf of the company, the entire employee group and the best for the industry.

Instead, I've watch single minded MEC leaders soak the company for every last cent and put the company through year after year of turmoil. And then, when the ecomomy gets tender, the union buries it's head in the sand and lets it all crumble around them hurting everybody.

I've been places around unions that few on this board have, and I'll tell you, you need to be careful at what you ask for because if it sounds like it's too good to be true, it probably is.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I am not your Pal so please don't refer to me as such. Your loss of money was a result of management ineptitude towards market forces, poor use of technology, governance greed, a hundred other reasons, and not any Union action. The "Union label" just gives you convenient spot to place blame since won't study the forces academically.

Just look at the history of Airline Management Teams that have bounced from Airline to Airline and left a trail of destruction behind (you will have to go somewhere academic for research and wikipedia isn't it). It has happened in the 121 world and now it happens in the fractional world. Too bad you can't place the real blame where blame is due. All the airlines that have gone out business or been through bankruptcy, have done so because of extremely incompetent, irresponsible, corrupt, immoral, if not criminal management. I know from personal experience so spare me your unobjective irrational nonsense.

Yeah, all the successful management that led to record breaking profits from 1995 till 2001 all suddenly just failed in their positions and all became idiots overnight.

It had nothing to do with all the union "industry leading contracts" signed in 1999 and 2000, did it?

Also, NJ was working off the old contract back then right? Lots of turmoil, too, right? By coincidence, with that old contract they managed to slide through and keep their heads above water.

Gee...

 

[dime line]

Pal, you haven't done your research on my posts. I've never paid union dues, because I never flew for a union carrier, and when I did become part of a union carrier it was through adminsitrative positions and I had the "opportunity" to see the sh*t that unions produce that nobody else ever sees. I have never, and I mean NEVER seen a union that acted on the best behalf of the company, the entire employee group and the best for the industry.

Instead, I've watch single minded MEC leaders soak the company for every last cent and put the company through year after year of turmoil. And then, when the ecomomy gets tender, the union buries it's head in the sand and lets it all crumble around them hurting everybody.

I've been places around unions that few on this board have, and I'll tell you, you need to be careful at what you ask for because if it sounds like it's too good to be true, it probably is.

hey Pal,
New Pan Am Plan Asks Big Union Concessions





By AGIS SALPUKAS
Published: October 15, 1987
LEAD: A group of airline experts representing Kirk Kerkorian has presented to a coalition of unions a proposal to take over Pan American World Airways that requires greater concessions from its workers than current management has asked.
A group of airline experts representing Kirk Kerkorian has presented to a coalition of unions a proposal to take over Pan American World Airways that requires greater concessions from its workers than current management has asked.
Under the proposal, Mr. Kerkorian would own a fraction more than 50 percent of the restructured airline, according to a union source, and the employees would hold about 25 percent. Mr. Kerkorian is a Los Angeles financier who has run hotels, casinos and movie companies. One of his latest ventures is MGM Grand Air, a luxury airline.
The investment banker representing the unions, Drexel Burnham Lambert, has been seeking a partner to join the unions in acquiring the airline. To attract buyers, the unions have promised concessions in return for new management and a greater stake for the employees, which now hold about 7 percent of the carrier.
The source estimated that the union concessions would total $900 million over four years. Pan Am management has asked the unions for $180 million a year in concessions, or $720 million in that period.
The source also said that under the plan, the Kerkorian group would take over only the airline and not the rest of the company. The airline would be spun off and the remaining parent company, the Pan Am Corporation, would retain the Pan Am shuttle; Pan Am Express, its commuter affiliate, and Pan Am World Services, which provides management and technical services for government and commercial projects. Some of these units are more profitable than the airline.
The union source said that the impression given by the Kerkorian representatives was that C. Edward Acker, chairman of the Pan Am Corporation, would continue to head the parent company. The source said that this would make it more palatable for Mr. Acker to support the Kerkorian takeover plan even though he and his management team would no longer be operating the airline.
The source said that Mr. Kerkorian's representatives, who included Donald Lloyd Jones, a former airline executive, and Terry Christensen, a representative of the Tracinda Corporation, Mr. Kerkorian's holding company, met with union leaders yesterday at the offices of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, a law firm representing the union group. Two Major Concerns
The source said that the four lead-ers of the union coalition, which consists of the pilots, the flight attendants, the flight engineers and the ticket agents, discussed the proposal Tuesday night and concluded that even though Mr. Kerkorian was asking for more concessions and a controlling stake of the restructured airline, his proposal addressed two major concerns of the coalition. These are the hiring of new management and the need for an infusion of capital.
On the other hand, he said, Pan Am management's plan to revive the airline would cost less in concessions and would increase the shares held by employees without giving control of the company to one person.
The source said that the union leaders now would discuss the Kerkorian plan with their boards.
The source said that it was hard to determine at the meeting which way the four union leaders were leaning. 'Very Serious'
The source said that the Kerkorian group had impressed the unions as wanting to work out a way to take over the airline. ''They were very serious,'' he said.
The source added that the Kerkorian aides did not indicate how much capital Mr. Kerkorian was willing to put up but he said the impression was that it would not be a large amount.
He said that, under the proposal, the employees, in addition to getting more stock, would also receive a profit-sharing program.

 

[dime line]

..........
United Airlines' pilot union agrees to contract concessions


Airline Industry Information, March 28, 2003

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Pilots at United Airlines have reportedly agreed to contract concessions.
The pilots' union leaders have tentatively agreed to a six-year contract which will enable the airline to lower its labour costs by USD1.1bn annually. The agreement - of which the specific details have not been disclosed - is expected to be voted on by the pilots by 11 April 2003.
United Airlines is also looking to form contracts with its machinists and flight attendants, reported The Associated Press

 

[dime line]

Northwest executives get bonuses amid layoffs and losses
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The top two executives of Northwest Airlines got large increases in their compensation in 2002, angering the union leaders the company is lobbying for wage and work rule concessions.

Continental CEO gets smaller bonus

NWA execs get big bonuses

Delta CEO gets $13M pay package

US Airways CEO paid $1.45 million, misses out on more
[/COLOR]

Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson and President Douglas Steenland took no raise in salary but together saw [COLOR=red]their compensation climb by more than $2.5 million through bonuses and stock options that can't be sold for years.[/COLOR]
Anderson and Steenland each were paid salaries of [COLOR=red]$500,000[/COLOR] last year, unchanged from 2001. Anderson received a [COLOR=red]$250,000 bonus[/COLOR] in 2002 and no bonus a year earlier. [COLOR=red]Steenland got a $200,000[/COLOR] bonus last year and no bonus in 2001.
The [COLOR=red]bulk of the pay for both executives came from options on stock that cannot be sold for years and would require the shares to rise in value in order for Anderson and Steenland to profit.[/COLOR] [COLOR=red]But Northwest in 2002 made that prospect easier by lowering the price the stock would have to reach in order to exercise the options.[/COLOR]
The details of executive compensation, revealed in the airline's proxy statement filed Wednesday with the Securities and Exchange Commission, drew caustic reactions from union leaders representing [COLOR=red]Northwest employees facing a fresh round of job cuts, wage reductions and benefit concessions. Many said the rising pay of executives will undermine the call for sacrifice from employees.[/COLOR]
"To me it's obscene," said Mollie Reiley, trustee of Local 2000 of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, representing flight attendants. [COLOR=red]"I thought this was a company in trouble.[/COLOR] This is not about we're all in this together. [SIZE=3][COLOR=red][U]It's about us working to pay them."[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]
Other union leaders echoed the theme. "It's going to be obvious that here we are a company that's fighting for its life and expecting to have employees pay their way through while the rich get richer," said Bobby DePace, president of District 143 International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.
Jim Atkinson, president of the Local 33 of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association, termed the compensation gains of the top officers in Northwest's executive suite "immoral."
Gary Helton, interim secretary-treasurer of the Professional Flight Attendants Association, which is seeking to represent Northwest flight attendants, said the executive pay is, "in a word, ludicrous."
Northwest's recent announcement of plans to cut 4,900 jobs will bring the airline's worldwide employment to 39,000, down from 53,500 at the end of the year 2000.
The carrier had no reaction to the comments of union officials, but spokesman Bill Mellon said the company's two top officers have taken no salary increase since they assumed their posts in 2001.
What's more, he said Northwest's CEO made less than comparable executives at Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines and Alaska Air. Northwest is the nation's fourth-largest carrier. Delta is third-largest and Continental is fifth. Northwest's revenue is nearly four times that of Alaska Air.
"Executive compensation at Northwest is consistently significantly lower than that paid at other major Minnesota companies," Mellon said.
[SIZE=3][COLOR=red][U]Total compensation for Anderson, Northwest CEO, was $2,802,788 for the year ended Dec. 31. His compensation was up 126.3 percent from the previous year's total compensation of $1,238,305.[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][COLOR=red][U]Anderson's package included other compensation of $111,638 and restricted stock awards of $1,941,150[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE]. During the year Anderson exercised no stock options and was given no new options.
[I]Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.[/I]

 

[CaveoFalco]

Yeah, all the successful management that led to record breaking profits from 1995 till 2001 all suddenly just failed in their positions and all became idiots overnight.

It had nothing to do with all the union "industry leading contracts" signed in 1999 and 2000, did it?

Also, NJ was working off the old contract back then right? Lots of turmoil, too, right? By coincidence, with that old contract they managed to slide through and keep their heads above water.

Gee...

The money not paid to to NJA pilots in 1998-2005, was not used to keep NJ Inc afloat. During that time NJ, Inc. built NJE on the backs of the pilots of NJA. While NJ, Inc. was raking in the money and funding Mr. Buffet's pot o' gold that he now is giving to charity, pilots at NJA were on poverty level wages, barely able to make ends meet. The richest of the richest were being flown by aviation's poorest of the poor. You don't do you your research so you have no idea though.

There was not turmoil at NJA until the pilot group did their research, determined their worth, banded together, became businessmen of their own affairs, and demanded the wages/benefits commensurate with the superior product that they have been providing since they created the industry and that NJ Inc could afford to pay. The money NJ Inc, shipped overseas returned home, and NJA pilots are now paid what the rightly earn. Bill Boisture was too stupid to realize that NJA pilots were not going to be modern day slaves. Thankfully, RTS stepped in a gave Boisture the boot.

Had NJA pilots been non-union, NJA pilots would be still working at poverty level wages with crappy benefits - that is a fact - they were doing it even when they were Union.

Yeah, all the successful management that led to record breaking profits from 1995 till 2001 all suddenly just failed in their positions and all became idiots overnight.

None of the companies that went under were efficient nor adaptive and all lacked vision by management. They failed to direct change and therefore became reactionary to market forces instead of driving those forces. They dismissed carriers such as SWA (a very successful union carrier) as a flash in the pan and they illegally and immorally tried to legislate them out of business so they did not have to change. Company management made stupid acquisitions, spent billions in pursuing mergers that never occurred, bought too many types of aircraft to successfully and efficiently manage and maintain, just to name a few amongst a litany of other poor decisions. It was their malfeasance, and not 9/11 nor Unions that set in motion the downward spiral that has trapped the industry today.

 

[dime line]

Northwest Airlines requires union concessions


Airline Industry Information, June 27, 2003

AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2003 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD


Northwest Airlines has revealed that its 3,000 managers will not take pay cuts until at least one of the airline's major unions accepts concessions.
In April, a memo to Northwest Airlines' salaried employees announced pay cuts of 5% to 15%. The airline's CEO stated that managers must "share in the salary and benefit reductions needed" to keep the carrier from a bankruptcy filing. The reductions were expected to be implemented on 1 July.
However, the airline has stated that the salary cuts were contingent on at least one union agreeing to concessions. None has agreed so far.

 

[WabiSabi]

I'm going to make this wonderfully clear.

First, I don't know what "other points" you are talking about, and at this point, even if I did, I wouldn't waste my time answering them for you.

:laugh:What a lame cop out.:laugh:

The same points that everyone has repeatedly made....that you have dodged (i.e. you claim management is on the forefront of safety. I have shown you an example of how FLOPS management has usurped safety and how the 1108 is championing safety. No reply from you (many many others))


What do you mean that you won't waste your time? You have "wasted your time" with answering my other posts. Why are you so selective? I'll answer that for you. It's not that you don't know what points I and others are talking about, it is that you're talking out of your ass and you have no significant argument. Not to mention that you're a coward, intellectually and otherwise.

This most recent example;

In one post, you decimated all the good things that have been stated about 1108. No wonder there are so many problems with the union intervention at FLOPS.

I asked you how you came up with this and you reply that you don't know about other points? Any more stupid questions?

Next, the word "Scab" is one not to use lightly, because it encompasses many people that I would personally hold in high regard because they all told the unions to shove it up where the sun don't shine.

Last but not least. Crossing the picket line is different from dreaming about crossing a picket line which is something I've never had the opportunity to do. I've never paid a nickel in union dues, and I never will. The union has already stolen too much money out of my pocket.

BOB, you crossed the line. You are a scab, scab.



BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points.....scab