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FLOPS Aircraft in MIA

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Name one thing that 1108 has done that has created problems. Just one.​

Here is one.. you only asked for one.
____________________________
Quoted from the New York Times:

"Buffett's Baby Is Taking a Bumpy Ride"

"Mr. Santulli has battled other challenges as well. Intense contract negotiations with pilots last year led, Mr. Santulli asserted, to some of them "not giving 100 percent."

Still, a pilot shortage last year forced NetJets to charter other aircraft.
"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be.

So I had airplanes and no pilots."
 
Here is one.. you only asked for one.
____________________________
Quoted from the New York Times:

"Buffett's Baby Is Taking a Bumpy Ride"

"Mr. Santulli has battled other challenges as well. Intense contract negotiations with pilots last year led, Mr. Santulli asserted, to some of them "not giving 100 percent."

Still, a pilot shortage last year forced NetJets to charter other aircraft.
"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be.

So I had airplanes and no pilots."

CONVENIENTLY, after selecting only a small paragraph from the article, and choosing to post ONLY that...you neglected to post the final sentence of your one paragraph quote:

"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be. So I had airplanes and no pilots." The shortage is now over, NetJets said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/business/yourmoney/25jets.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

Problem solved. You're Welcome.
 
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Here is one.. you only asked for one.
____________________________
Quoted from the New York Times:

"Buffett's Baby Is Taking a Bumpy Ride"

"Mr. Santulli has battled other challenges as well. Intense contract negotiations with pilots last year led, Mr. Santulli asserted, to some of them "not giving 100 percent."

Still, a pilot shortage last year forced NetJets to charter other aircraft.
"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be.

So I had airplanes and no pilots."

Why don't you answer with something legitimate and answer the other points (not only mine, but the questions you have dodged from everyone)? This means something other than posting a link to some anti union website and your usual canned replies. I triple dog dare ya!

How about, scab?
 
CONVENIENTLY, after selecting only a small paragraph from the article, and choosing to post ONLY that...you neglected to post the final sentence of your one paragraph quote:

"On the days when we were very busy, I had to go the charter market, and they kill you with pricing," Mr. Santulli recalled. "I should have hired 300 pilots, but no one knew what their contract would be. So I had airplanes and no pilots." The shortage is now over, NetJets said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/25/business/yourmoney/25jets.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

Problem solved. You're Welcome.

You are right. I missed it, but it was by accident.

It shows how much the union didn't care about how much money the company spent because it was completely stagnated by negotiations.

No union, no negotiations, no charter costs.

Problem solved.

Thank you for pointing out that I overlooked it.
 
B19, you really are an idiot. You're incredibly biased, narrow minded, and short sighted. Again, who do you think pushed for the union at Options? Answer- the MAJORITY OF THE PILOTS THEMSELVES.

No one pushed them or forced them or cheated them. It was voluntary. We did it. And guess why? Because our management had all the opportunity in the world to make things better and treat us right waaaaayyy before we voted in the Teamsters. All we got was broken promises over and over.

Think about how much less leverage we would have without the union and where we would be now had they not been voted in. Management would have full reign to continue to take, take, cut, cut without any recourse. They have, they did, and they would continue to. There wouldn't be very little we could do other than resign.

I don't know how you haven't figured this out by now but you and your stupid little FI posts aren't going to change the industry. Unions came to be for good reason.

Something else- if you think the union is/will be the downfall of Options, you may be the most naive individual in the industry. If you are Bob, this only supports my point further. Options' problems go WAY BEYOND the pilots and their contract fight.
 
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Let's all give credit where credit is due: It's well known that low morale causes productivity to drop so managers know full well that dragging out negotiations has negative repercussions. The NJ contract battle ended when management put down the stick and started handing our carrots. Obviously had the realistic, fair offer come earlier in the process RTS could have solved his recruitment problem much sooner. NJA's record profits proved that motivated workers treated with respect will gladly go the extra mile. That common sense concept was pro-actively put into practice during IBB. RTS has accepted the Union as a full partner and NJA has benefited from the contributions of talented 1108 volunteers who serve on the joint committees.

If Flt Ops managers were smart they'd follow that example and work with the pilots to reach a fair agreement. A good first step would be agreeing to meet as often as the pilots are asking them to. Management's delay tactics are evidence that their side has an ego problem and isn't bargaining in good faith. Pilots on the outside look at that disrespectful attitude and don't apply. Consequently when there's a recruitment problem it's easy to see who's causing it and how they can end it.
 
Let's all give credit where credit is due: It's well known that low morale causes productivity to drop so managers know full well that dragging out negotiations has negative repercussions. The NJ contract battle ended when management put down the stick and started handing our carrots. Obviously had the realistic, fair offer come earlier in the process RTS could have solved his recruitment problem much sooner. NJA's record profits proved that motivated workers treated with respect will gladly go the extra mile. That common sense concept was pro-actively put into practice during IBB. RTS has accepted the Union as a full partner and NJA has benefited from the contributions of talented 1108 volunteers who serve on the joint committees.

If Flt Ops managers were smart they'd follow that example and work with the pilots to reach a fair agreement. A good first step would be agreeing to meet as often as the pilots are asking them to.
Management's delay tactics are evidence that their side has an ego problem and isn't bargaining in good faith.
Pilots on the outside look at that disrespectful attitude and don't apply. Consequently when there's a recruitment problem it's easy to see who's causing it and how they can end it.


You have to be talking about Sherringa, he has the only EGO that is bigger than Flight Options business itself
 
Ego

Make no mistake, all serious labor negotiations are (almost entirely) about ego. Please do not think they are about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. It doesn't matter whether it is pilots and management, players and teams, teachers and schools, auto workers and manufacturers. It is about the ego at the top of both side handling the negotiations.

Fly safe.
 
Make no mistake, all serious labor negotiations are (almost entirely) about ego. Please do not think they are about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. It doesn't matter whether it is pilots and management, players and teams, teachers and schools, auto workers and manufacturers. It is about the ego at the top of both side handling the negotiations.

Fly safe.

Sir,
With all due respect, this is not true with the IBT 1108. Our negotiations were to make sure that NJA was a viable long term career opportunity for your pilots so that NJA did not turn into a revolving door training pipeline to some company like many of the regional airlines have become. Our Union kept an eye on the ball - that was a fair contract negotiated for the families of the crews that fly you and not for the egos of the union leadership.

In 2004, in all likelihood the FO on your airplane was making an NJA wage that made him eligible for government assistance. He may have even been forced to keep multiple jobs to keep his family supported. You paid virtually the same but any profits were not returned as profit sharing or increased salary/benefits or improved working conditions to make a safer product for you.

If you are speaking to the egos of NJA Company management, with the exception of a few, I have not found that to be true either. Others can speak to other Companies, but I respectfully request that you not lump IBT 1108 with any other experiences in sister aviation or nonaviation industries.
 
It shows how much the union didn't care about how much money the company spent because it was completely stagnated by negotiations.

No union, no negotiations, no charter costs.

Problem solved.

Typical management myopia.

It's more like:

Management stalls negotiations, engages campaign of intimidation and FUD, backs pilots into corner, planes have to be chartered.

A more accurate statement is:

No incorrigible management, management stops dragging feet on the inevitable, then no charter costs.

Sorry BOB, the pilots are exercising their right to representation and collective bargaining per the RLA. If you don't like it, take your laissez-faire management fascism to another country, scab.



BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points......scab
 
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Make no mistake, all serious labor negotiations are (almost entirely) about ego. Please do not think they are about lifestyle, profits, fair pay, etc. It doesn't matter whether it is pilots and management, players and teams, teachers and schools, auto workers and manufacturers. It is about the ego at the top of both side handling the negotiations.

Fly safe.

I very much agree with what you say. The non-union carrier I work for is focused on getting the job done, and with that comes the life style, profits and satisfaction of a job well done.

Once a contract is in place, ultimately, fractional owners, such as you are the ones that the costs are passed along to.

The union mongers on this board continually talk about the unlimited wealth of the owners and how the market and potential for growth is unlimited, thus the funds will always be available to support the high wages and very conservative work rules demanded by a union.

You've read what I've stated, and my concerns about any union becoming involved in an industry that is still budding. When the adjustment occurs, unions will not react as quick as a non-union entity in adjusting to market pressures, and the entire industry will falter.
The business model has only been somewhat successful with one frac over the long term, and that is NJ. Even long term, the model has only existed in it's current regulatory format for a short period of time.

As an owner and an end user, I'm certain that you must be concerned about the state of the industry and are keenly watching the entire picture, not just that of FLOPS. Each time a union enters one of the very few fractionals in existance, it has the potential of driving up cost to you, the end user. There is a certain point where the costs will rise to the point where owning your own airplane and crew is much more efficient than being involved in a fractional program such as NJ.
 
Spoken like a plantation owner of 1863.

In 1863 there was a civil war that began over rising costs, taxation and the distribution of natural resources. That had nothing to do about negotiations, it was all about winning or losing, just like NJW alluded to.

In that war, just like when organized labor comes onto a property, there are no winners, and the pain to resurrect the damage caused took decades and to some extent has never been healed.
 
Typical management myopia.

It's more like:

Management stalls negotiations, engages campaign of intimidation and FUD, backs pilots into corner, planes have to be chartered.

A more accurate statement is:

No incorrigible management, management stops dragging feet on the inevitable, then no charter costs.

Sorry BOB, the pilots are exercising their right to representation and collective bargaining per the RLA. If you don't like it, take your laissez-faire management fascism to another country, scab.



BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points......scab

That doesn't seem to be consistent with all of the honorable posts made about the relationship between 1108 and NJ on these boards.

The article was specific about the NJ negotiations process and the high cost involved when pilots didn't give 100% and the cost of the contract was unknown.

In one post, you decimated all the good things that have been stated about 1108. No wonder there are so many problems with the union intervention at FLOPS.
 
The union mongers on this board continually talk about the unlimited wealth of the owners and how the market and potential for growth is unlimited, thus the funds will always be available to support the high wages and very conservative work rules demanded by a union.

Make no mistake, IT WAS THE "FLOPS MANANGEMENT MONGERS" that used their corporate wealth/greed to hide a safety issue.

What about the incident in ANJ, Sault Ste Marie, MI on Oct. 18/2007 where the Captain, former Program Manager (EMAY) sucked an engine plug, flew the plane for 5 days, then Bilger throws him behind the ASAP program, and the incident was seen by two "IAs"?

No 501's?

Limitations exceeded?

Passengers flown?

Captain performing maintenance on N443LX with no documentation?

How do you think the entire Pilot group and the Owner's feel?

PRICELESS!
 
In one post, you decimated all the good things that have been stated about 1108.

You are really reaching and shooting blind. I'll entertain your anti union moron-athon. How did I "decimate all the good things that have been stated about 1108?"

and, BOB, "because I said so" doesn't cut it.....scab

No wonder there are so many problems with the union intervention at FLOPS.

Well no, the problems come from management cutting pay, benefits, domiciles, hotels, QOL etc. Management's attempted preservation of the old status quo of directing hostility and intimidation to pilots that operated in a safe and legal manner doesn't help either.







BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points......scab
 
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Make no mistake, IT WAS THE "FLOPS MANANGEMENT MONGERS" that used their corporate wealth/greed to hide a safety issue.

What about the incident in ANJ, Sault Ste Marie, MI on Oct. 18/2007 where the Captain, former Program Manager (EMAY) sucked an engine plug, flew the plane for 5 days, then Bilger throws him behind the ASAP program, and the incident was seen by two "IAs"?

No 501's?

Limitations exceeded?

Passengers flown?

Captain performing maintenance on N443LX with no documentation?

How do you think the entire Pilot group and the Owner's feel?

PRICELESS!

I think the union hasn't dropped this one!
 
In 1863 there was a civil war that began over rising costs, taxation and the distribution of natural resources. That had nothing to do about negotiations, it was all about winning or losing, just like NJW alluded to.

In that war, just like when organized labor comes onto a property, there are no winners, and the pain to resurrect the damage caused took decades and to some extent has never been healed.

That war was states rights and oppression via slavery. Not surprised you don't see that either since the repulsiveness of slave labor does not part of your vernacular.
 
That war was states rights and oppression via slavery. Not surprised you don't see that either since the repulsiveness of slave labor does not part of your vernacular.

You can't even get the beginning of the American Civil War right, no wonder you need a union to speak for you. Slavery was but a small part of the big picture.

Just like when organized labor comes into a company. Work rules, QOL issues and payroll for pilots are only a small part of the big picture of an air carrier.

And I honestly hope, that you are not even beginning to compare being a pilot at any air carrier to slavery in the south before the civil war...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War


The origins of the American Civil War lay in the complex issues of slavery, competing understandings of federalism, party politics, expansionism, sectionalism, tariffs, economics and modernization in the Antebellum Period.

The United States was a nation divided into two distinct regions separated by the Mason-Dixon line. New England, the Northeast and the Midwest had a rapidly growing economy based on family farms, industry, mining, commerce and transportation, with a large and rapidly growing urban population and no slavery outside the border states. Its growth was fed by a high birth rate and large numbers of European immigrants, especially Irish, British, German, Polish and Scandinavian.

The South was dominated by a settled plantation system based on slavery, with rapid growth taking place in the Southwest such as Texas based on high birth rates and low immigration from Europe. There were few cities or towns, and little manufacturing except in border areas. Although slave owners controlled politics and economics, two-thirds of the Southern whites owned no slaves and usually were engaged in subsistence agriculture.

Overall, the Northern population was growing much more quickly than the Southern population, which made it increasingly difficult for the South to continue to control the national government. Southerners were worried about the relative political decline of their region because the North was growing much faster in terms of population and industrial output.
 
Make no mistake, IT WAS THE "FLOPS MANANGEMENT MONGERS" that used their corporate wealth/greed to hide a safety issue.

What about the incident in ANJ, Sault Ste Marie, MI on Oct. 18/2007 where the Captain, former Program Manager (EMAY) sucked an engine plug, flew the plane for 5 days, then Bilger throws him behind the ASAP program, and the incident was seen by two "IAs"?

No 501's?

Limitations exceeded?

Passengers flown?

Captain performing maintenance on N443LX with no documentation?

How do you think the entire Pilot group and the Owner's feel?

PRICELESS!

Your post doesn't make sense.

I made an observation to a NJ owner about the union supporters consistantly stating that they serve the richest people on the planet, thus the finances are never going to be a problem and the company is never going to come upon hard times, and you came up with this?

What on earth do the two of them have in common? Please help me understand.
 
BTW; still waiting for you to address the other points......scab

I'm going to make this wonderfully clear.

First, I don't know what "other points" you are talking about, and at this point, even if I did, I wouldn't waste my time answering them for you.

Next, the word "Scab" is one not to use lightly, because it encompasses many people that I would personally hold in high regard because they all told the unions to shove it up where the sun don't shine.

Last but not least. Crossing the picket line is different from dreaming about crossing a picket line which is something I've never had the opportunity to do. I've never paid a nickel in union dues, and I never will. The union has already stolen too much money out of my pocket.
 
You can't even get the beginning of the American Civil War right, no wonder you need a union to speak for you. Slavery was but a small part of the big picture.

Just like when organized labor comes into a company. Work rules, QOL issues and payroll for pilots are only a small part of the big picture of an air carrier.

And I honestly hope, that you are not even beginning to compare being a pilot at any air carrier to slavery in the south before the civil war...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_American_Civil_War


The origins of the American Civil War lay in the complex issues of slavery, competing understandings of federalism, party politics, expansionism, sectionalism, tariffs, economics and modernization in the Antebellum Period.

The United States was a nation divided into two distinct regions separated by the Mason-Dixon line. New England, the Northeast and the Midwest had a rapidly growing economy based on family farms, industry, mining, commerce and transportation, with a large and rapidly growing urban population and no slavery outside the border states. Its growth was fed by a high birth rate and large numbers of European immigrants, especially Irish, British, German, Polish and Scandinavian.

The South was dominated by a settled plantation system based on slavery, with rapid growth taking place in the Southwest such as Texas based on high birth rates and low immigration from Europe. There were few cities or towns, and little manufacturing except in border areas. Although slave owners controlled politics and economics, two-thirds of the Southern whites owned no slaves and usually were engaged in subsistence agriculture.

Overall, the Northern population was growing much more quickly than the Southern population, which made it increasingly difficult for the South to continue to control the national government. Southerners were worried about the relative political decline of their region because the North was growing much faster in terms of population and industrial output.

Nice job! You just proved my two points. Federalism and slavery were very much a part of the civil war. The plantation owners in the south wanted to dictate to the federal government, realized they were losing power, and very much did not want the federal government banning slavery. Of course you are not smart enough to develop nor present your own thoughts on any subject of magnitude which is why you cut and paste from wikipedia (points that support my first statement) in much the same way that you cut and past your anti-union crap. My first reference to you and the plantation owners of 1863 was in reference to slavery but, like I said, your anti-labor position spouted routinely on this board, shows you have no aversion to slavery.
 
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I'm going to make this wonderfully clear.

First, I don't know what "other points" you are talking about, and at this point, even if I did, I wouldn't waste my time answering them for you.

Next, the word "Scab" is one not to use lightly, because it encompasses many people that I would personally hold in high regard because they all told the unions to shove it up where the sun don't shine.

Last but not least. Crossing the picket line is different from dreaming about crossing a picket line which is something I've never had the opportunity to do. I've never paid a nickel in union dues, and I never will.
The union has already stolen too much money out of my pocket
.

iI hope they steal more from your pocket, cause the stuff you spew out is worthless. You have no business being in aviation or any other industry for that fact.
 
I'm going to make this wonderfully clear.

First, I don't know what "other points" you are talking about, and at this point, even if I did, I wouldn't waste my time answering them for you.

Next, the word "Scab" is one not to use lightly, because it encompasses many people that I would personally hold in high regard because they all told the unions to shove it up where the sun don't shine.

Last but not least. Crossing the picket line is different from dreaming about crossing a picket line which is something I've never had the opportunity to do. I've never paid a nickel in union dues, and I never will. The union has already stolen too much money out of my pocket.

If you have never paid a nickel in Union dues, the Union could not have stole any money out of your pocket. Please, try to make some sense in your argument - never mind, you just hurt your own cause which ultimately benefits labor and unions. Please keep your silliness - it is very beneficial to the Union movement. I am beginning to think you are a pro-Union guy that is actually making the anti-union crowd look so inept that organizing will never be a problem.
 
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Since Bob here is a SCAB, and doing nothing but flinging FUD, could we basically call him a "SCUD missile?" Similar to the wildly inaccurate and ineffective munitions employed by the poorly trained inept military of Saddam Husseins oppressive regime?

SCUD!
 
If you have never paid a nickel in Union dues, the Union could not have stole any money out of your pocket. Please, try to make some sense in your argument - never mind, you just hurt your own cause which ultimately benefits labor and unions. Please keep your silliness - it is very beneficial to the Union movement. I am beginning to think you are a pro-Union guy that is actually making the anti-union crowd look so inept that organizing will never be a problem.

I have personally lost tens of thousands of dollars of retirement and payroll as a direct result of union action(s) that were widely known within the industry as radical and not necessary.We won't even get into the loss I incurred by selling my house under market value and relocation expenses.

Let me tell you pal, that was theft out of my pocket and all the other people that were laid off because unions couldn't get their act together and shredded the companies needlessly. Both times the union had all the opportunity in the world to stop it from happening and they just stayed their like the bunch of idiots that they are and let all the employees lose their jobs, their insurance and their careers. That is theft of the highest degree.

Do I have a vast distaste for unions, you betcha there pal... and I think that any young guy that is getting involved in a union really needs to think twice before placing their trust in unions because they have always maintained a scorched earth attitude.
And yes, you want to know one of the many reasons that I post against unions... this is one of the big ones.
 
I have personally lost tens of thousands of dollars of retirement and payroll as a direct result of union action(s) that were widely known within the industry as radical and not necessary.We won't even get into the loss I incurred by selling my house under market value and relocation expenses.

Let me tell you pal, that was theft out of my pocket and all the other people that were laid off because unions couldn't get their act together and shredded the companies needlessly. Both times the union had all the opportunity in the world to stop it from happening and they just stayed their like the bunch of idiots that they are and let all the employees lose their jobs, their insurance and their careers. That is theft of the highest degree.

Do I have a vast distaste for unions, you betcha there pal... and I think that any young guy that is getting involved in a union really needs to think twice before placing their trust in unions because they have always maintained a scorched earth attitude.
And yes, you want to know one of the many reasons that I post against unions... this is one of the big ones.

I am not your Pal so please don't refer to me as such. Your loss of money was a result of management ineptitude towards market forces, poor use of technology, governance greed, a hundred other reasons, and not any Union action. The "Union label" just gives you convenient spot to place blame since won't study the forces academically.

Just look at the history of Airline Management Teams that have bounced from Airline to Airline and left a trail of destruction behind (you will have to go somewhere academic for research and wikipedia isn't it). It has happened in the 121 world and now it happens in the fractional world. Too bad you can't place the real blame where blame is due. All the airlines that have gone out business or been through bankruptcy, have done so because of extremely incompetent, irresponsible, corrupt, immoral, if not criminal management. I know from personal experience so spare me your unobjective irrational nonsense.
 
So B19, since you belonged to a pilot group that was unionized and yet did not pay Union dues (you said so), were you a Contract Administration Fee Payer instead? That was really smart, you lost your voice through the inability to vote in Union and Contractual affairs. Good move.
 
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