Delta TA on SCOPE

[Chairman]

Age 65 is why our friends at united are furloughed this time PCL- the outsourcing furloughs blamed on 9/11 occurred years before-

As a Furloughed UAL pilot I disagree. I am furloughed because Tilton parked 100 airplanes realizing without the reduction the DOT would have never approved the merger. I may be on the street longer because of age 65 but don't blame that for putting me there. UAL said the 737 were not profitable although the were paid for aircraft. But funny how then they open a 737 base in Denver using CAL aircraft.....

 

[PCL_128]

Mgmt's are saying that 50's are too expensive, (and hitting their cycle limit) therefore we need -700's and -900's to replace them. The delta TA gives them exactly what they want. If the most profitable legacy gives them this, how does unical have a leg to stand on to not allow -900's?- its not a tightening of scope to give mgmt the types of airplanes it wants.

To be clear, it isn't truly -900s. It's -900s modified to include only 76 seats. Airplanes with 76 seats have been outsourced for years, so that's nothing new in this TA. But this TA does put strict limits on them, including a block hour ratio that requires the number of 76-seaters to be reduced if mainline flying is reduced. That's a first, and it's an important development.

I view this TA as a give in bc it allows larger planes just as 50 seaters become unprofitable-

Again, these aren't bigger airplanes. It's airplanes of the same size that have been allowed for a long time. They're just allowing a small number more of them, but getting a lot in return, including a block hour ratio and guaranteed parking of 50-seaters.

the question is, why on earth is it unreasonable to have the -900's at mainline???

It's not. But it is unreasonable to expect it to happen immediately when all of the other legacy carriers are still able to outsource all of that flying. There's a path to get to where you want, but it's not a single step.

And why would you think Unical is better positioned to take back more scope than delta right now?

Several reasons. First, the CAL pilots already have 50-seat scope. Management is wanting relief, and when it comes to permissive areas of bargaining, the party that already has the language in their favor is the party with leverage. Second, collective bargaining is all about patterns. In a stable economic environment, being able to show a positive trend or a change in the industry status quo gives you leverage in bargaining. The UNICAL pilots can show where SWAPA has recently improved scope with the new side letter, and the Delta pilots have improved scope with their new TA. That's a positive trend emerging. It allows negotiators to paint a picture at the table that makes it far easier for management to accept scope recapture. In the previous environment, when each successive CBA involved more and more loosening of scope, management would have never agreed to any scope recapture, because they were worried about their competitive environment. They're not going to agree to reduce outsourcing when their competition is likely to increase it. The positive trend makes it easier to convince management that they will not be at a competitive disadvantage by agreeing to reasonable scope recapture.

 

[aircombat]

It's not. But it is unreasonable to expect it to happen immediately when all of the other legacy carriers are still able to outsource all of that flying. There's a path to get to where you want, but it's not a single step.

I don't see why it's so unreasonable. negotiate a rate for 76 seaters that is an average, or even well below average, of what the current DCI rate is for those aircraft. What ever it takes to get the aircraft on your property and give you the ability to negotiate better rates on the next contract.

A joint effort between all mainline carriers is going to happen as soon as a national seniority list happens. NEVER.

Your excuses are the typical ALPA we can't do that, instead of looking for ways to do it.

 

[SLUF4]

Delta is giving away 70 MORE regional jets in exchange for 88 717s and a 20% pay raise over 3 years? Do you realize that without this TA, Delta would have to add those 717s and an additional 122 mainline aircraft to get 70 more RJs on property?

Is Delta going to add those airplanes regardless of this TA? Yes. Is Delta going to reduce the number of 50 seat RJs regardless of this TA? Yes.

Just out of curiosity, what would you need to do to your current contract to start flying CRJ-900s tomorrow? I believe you already have a pay rate, don't you? It appears as though you gave up on the 50 before, you're giving up on 70 seaters, and the next time around you're going to give up on 90 seaters at this rate?

You are absolutely correct

 

[Speedtape]

If I read the TA correctly (a big IF, but I think I did), it said a TOTAL of 125 50-70 seaters. Then 223 TOTAL 76 seaters. Currently DCI has 255 70/76 seaters, of which 153 are 76 seaters. So, there are 102 or so 70 seaters currently flying. If they choose to keep them all, and 125 total are either 50 or 70 seaters, then that would mean 23 50 seaters left. I don't know which ones Delta would keep, they may keep 125 newer 50 seaters? That could be wrong, but I think the TA said that. I am waiting on a summary from ALPA, it should be out soon.

The TA also stated 35% of all newhires in upcoming classes would come from ALPA DCI carriers.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You said:
Then 223 TOTAL 76 seaters.

Currently DCI has 255 70/76 seaters, of which 153 are 76 seaters.

I think the number of 76 seaters is much lower than 153.

 

[waveflyer]

Why do you obsess so much about this? You don't work for DAL and your company has no RJs. What the hell do you care? Do you have anything else to do in life? Get a hobby or something.....

You really think what delta does affects no one else?
Every pilot ought to care

 

[waveflyer]

Again PCL- treat me like a 3rd grader

How does this TA improve scope?

 

[aircombat]

Again PCL- treat me like a 3rd grader

How does this TA improve scope?

It's what ALPA does. If their argument doesn't hold water they revert to intimidation tactics.

It only works because pilots don't learn from the past. His attempt to burn you sounds so familiar. I remember when it was said they aren't CRJ 200s they are CRJ 200s with 40 seats.

We will all be one more Delta bankruptcy away from were we are now, or far worse.

This time around they better not ask for a Jets for Jobs deal because if we aren't good enough to be on the bottom of their seniority list they aren't good enough to be on the bottom of ours.

 

[waveflyer]

And mgmt plays the pilot ego better than any symphony

 

[Turtle21]

Pilot groups facilitated the outsourcing. ALPA is just a collection of resources.

ALPA takes dues money with both hands but never saw any responsibility they were willing to take with a ten foot pole, yet sycophants are willing to blame individual pilot groups and sing ALPA's praise despite the never ending downward spiral ALPA created with their brilliant pattern bargaining strategy.

Resources... Like overpriced ShamWow rags! :lol:

 

[Turtle21]

....Clearly, the line in the sand has been drawn at 76 seats..


.

Clearly the operative phrase in that sentence is "in the sand". :lol: I mean let's be real, you are talking about ALPA (forgive me, as you would say "individual pilot groups").

 

[PCL_128]

I don't see why it's so unreasonable. negotiate a rate for 76 seaters that is an average, or even well below average, of what the current DCI rate is for those aircraft. What ever it takes to get the aircraft on your property and give you the ability to negotiate better rates on the next contract.

I know pilots all think that the world revolves around them, but reality is quite different. Your pay rate is a tiny portion of the overall pie. What makes the regionals so cheap isn't just pilot pay rates, it's also benefits plans, corporate overhead, rampers, flight attendants, mechanics, customer service, etc. It is impossible for you to do the flying at mainline for as cheap as the regionals do it. Therefore, the only way to reign scope back in is to do it gradually at every legacy carrier until there is no outsourcing, leaving management without the problem of having to compete with other airlines that are able to outsource. If just one airline were to stop the outsourcing while the others did not, then they would be at a horrible competitive disadvantage.

 

[PCL_128]

Again PCL- treat me like a 3rd grader

How does this TA improve scope?

Wave, read this point paper written by a Delta pilot: http://dalforums.alpa.org/Portals/3/activeforums_Attach/TA_Point_Paper.pdf

It gives a great summary of the scope improvements, as well as the other TA improvements. And it's written by a rank and file pilot, so you can't call it ALPA propaganda.

 

[waveflyer]

Yeah- the gradual part would be the -900's. start there.

Why wait for a bigger airplane? 76 seaters have only been outsourced at delta for 5 years. And GL and the delta crowd here claim that the 2007 arrival of -900's were remnants of the bankruptcy deal. IMSO, If you sign this TA while profitable, you validate a deal that was signed under the duress of Bankruptcy and make it harder for AA and Unical to hold their lines.

It's much more significant than tightening up restrictions on deltas 50's.

Delta is extremely influential- what they do gives permission. Please don't ignore your leadership responsibilities.

 

[waveflyer]

Wave, read this point paper written by a Delta pilot: http://dalforums.alpa.org/Portals/3/activeforums_Attach/TA_Point_Paper.pdf

It gives a great summary of the scope improvements, as well as the other TA improvements. And it's written by a rank and file pilot, so you can't call it ALPA propaganda.

I wil do that-

But memorial day is calling a day early-

I will be taking a much needed break from just about everything but scotch!

Good weekend all-

DALPA members, I don't mean to be inciteful and inflammatory- just please THINK long term about the ramifications of validating outsourced -900's.
The industry has had to work against DALPA for far too long. You can live up to your history, only if you don't live up to your recent history.