Delta TA on SCOPE

[777forever]

Trust me, I wanted more pay. I was shocked when I heard the percentages. But, I tried to relax a bit, then I tried to think about the WHOLE TA. I wanted to see if many sections were improved, not just the pay. I looked at Scope. I didn't really like the part about extra 76 seaters, but then I saw that 150 or so 50 seaters would go, and apparently many had long leases attached to them. (why? I don't know...) I looked at the INTL scope tightening. I looked at the code share tightening (Alaska Air). I looked at the sick leave improvements. I looked at the reserve improvements. I looked at the work rule improvements. There were a lot of improvements. Not a lot of huge jumps, but improvements over a broad area. That plus a 3 year contract (very short duration), and a 19.5% pay raise over that time. I saw the profit sharing scheme, which does not pay for the pay raises (as many people think). If the profit equals what some analysts think DL's profit could be in the next couple years, there will be larger profit sharing checks (over $2.5 billion in one year means 20% sharing for pilots). Overall, I like it so far, and will confirm that at a roadshow. If someone doesn't like it, then they can vote the way they want.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I have 100% respect for you now General. I like the way you think. You and Captain RM(author of the point paper) know how to think rationally, analytically, and realistically rather than emotionally. I hope the majority of the Delta pilot share your way of thinking.

No offense, but anyone who thinks this TA is a "sellout" on scope is just ignorant of the facts or delusional. As a regional pilot I want this TA to pass as it will shrink DCI overall and immediately add more jobs to mainline, allowing hiring and upward movement.





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[Fly-By-Cable]

General I hope your yes vote will not be something you regret later, I mean that sincerely. I am just certain that there is a loop hole in the scope section, and you guys will later find your mad dogs being parked while the big rjs are continuing to fly. I really hope im wrong. BTW this isnt your problem, but the CAL/UAL guys are finished with this yes vote. Say goodbye to those 737-5 and hello to the E175.

 

[79%N1]

This TA will not pass..........
SCOPE needs to be airtight.
PAY needs to go up.

Some parts of the TA is good but the most important part - not strong enough IMO.

So you won't be happy until EVERY regional pilot is out of work? I can't wait until my foreclosure. That will be fun! And lets get off our high and mighty horses and stop pretending you are doing us a favor. We all know that there are not enough spots for everyone at Delta. You want all the 50 seaters eliminated, and no additional flying to off set that. Seems you have a job and you aren't going to be happy until we all don't have one! Mindless hatred.

 

[777forever]

General I hope your yes vote will not be something you regret later, I mean that sincerely. I am just certain that there is a loop hole in the scope section, and you guys will later find your mad dogs being parked while the big rjs are continuing to fly. I really hope im wrong. BTW this isnt your problem, but the CAL/UAL guys are finished with this yes vote. Say goodbye to those 737-5 and hello to the E175.

You indeed are wrong, there is no loophole. The block hour ratio language is rock solid. Even if there was a loophole, 3 years is a very short contract. Back to the table in 2 1/2 years.

Going for the homerun each time on a contract every at bat you will certainly strike out. It's best to hit a single here, a double there etc.

That's why the Delta pilots have continued to make gains over the past several years while UNICAL pilots are monkeying around building websites and in picket lines passing out flyers to passengers like they care, and no pay increases to show for it.

Just take the Delta TA +1 and be on your way.

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[GogglesPisano]

This TA is a net positive in regards to Scope.

DCI shrinks (currently 598 RJ's. TA will cap them at 450.)

76-seaters will be capped at 223. Currently the Company can add mainline aircraft, trigger a 3-1 ratio, and add 76-seaters up to the current max of 255. They can then park mainline aircraft and keep the 255 76-seaters. This TA reduces the potential number of 76-seaters.

The long-sought block-hour-ratio is back. If they park mainline aircraft, they park RJ's.

These additional 76-seaters only come if mainline acquires new aircraft.

The requirement that 35% of newhires come from DCI is a bone to ALPA national and, IMHO, the right thing to do considering there will be a bloodbath at DCI in the coming years.

The gains in vacation, sick pay and especially compensation are very disappointing. It gives us industry-leading 737 and 777 pay (excluding retirement, BTW) in 2.5 years as opposed to immediately. However it does give us a better foundation to build on for the next merger JCBA (when, not if.)

If this TA is voted down, it won't be because of scope, it will be because of pay.

In that case, if history is an indicator, we will likely spend the next 3 years negotiating like every other legacy, instead of negotiating 3 years from now with a better contract to build on.

Flame away, irrational chest-beaters.

 

[fam62c]

This TA will not pass..........
SCOPE needs to be airtight.
PAY needs to go up.

Some parts of the TA is good but the most important part - not strong enough IMO.

It will pass with flying colors because if it doesn't you will be stuck in the RLA process for the next 5-10 years with nothing. You have a little leverage now because the company wants something and it allows you to get a few things. If the company can't get what they want for a price they are willing to pay you will be stuck with zero. The NMB is never going to allow a labor group from an airline the size of DAL to go on strike. This is the only little bit of leverage you will ever have, you can elect whatever union you want and it's not going to change this fact. This thing will pass with no problem.

 

[KarmaPolice]

This TA is a net positive in regards to Scope.

DCI shrinks (currently 598 RJ's. TA will cap them at 450.)

76-seaters will be capped at 223. Currently the Company can add mainline aircraft, trigger a 3-1 ratio, and add 76-seaters up to the current max of 255. They can then park mainline aircraft and keep the 255 76-seaters. This TA reduces the potential number of 76-seaters.

The long-sought block-hour-ratio is back. If they park mainline aircraft, they park RJ's.

These additional 76-seaters only come if mainline acquires new aircraft.

The requirement that 35% of newhires come from DCI is a bone to ALPA national and, IMHO, the right thing to do considering there will be a bloodbath at DCI in the coming years.

The gains in vacation, sick pay and especially compensation are very disappointing. It gives us industry-leading 737 and 777 pay (excluding retirement, BTW) in 2.5 years as opposed to immediately. However it does give us a better foundation to build on for the next merger JCBA (when, not if.)

If this TA is voted down, it won't be because of scope, it will be because of pay.

In that case, if history is an indicator, we will likely spend the next 3 years negotiating like every other legacy, instead of negotiating 3 years from now with a better contract to build on.

Flame away, irrational chest-beaters.

It's not an irrational idea to be opposed to allowing 70 more 76 seat aircraft at DCI. That isn't chest beating. We don't have to let the company do it, and certainly not that many. We have far more leverage here than we are using.

Management doesn't want the 50's, so we're letting them get 70 more 76ers to ease their pain, and they're giving us great stuff like block hour ratios in return.

We can get more than what we are getting though! They rushed this TA for a reason. I don't think we can demand mainline fly the 76ers, but we don't have to give them 70 more!

 

[KarmaPolice]

It will pass with flying colors because if it doesn't you will be stuck in the RLA process for the next 5-10 years with nothing. You have a little leverage now because the company wants something and it allows you to get a few things. If the company can't get what they want for a price they are willing to pay you will be stuck with zero. The NMB is never going to allow a labor group from an airline the size of DAL to go on strike. This is the only little bit of leverage you will ever have, you can elect whatever union you want and it's not going to change this fact. This thing will pass with no problem.

We have more leverage than you think. Management is faced with lots of bad leases on worthless 50 seaters. They also know we will get pay parity with SWA in any mediation. They want this contract done early so they can continue with their strategic plans. I'm not saying we could get all flying back in house, but giving them 70 76ers is quite the gift!

 

[waveflyer]

So you won't be happy until EVERY regional pilot is out of work? I can't wait until my foreclosure. That will be fun! And lets get off our high and mighty horses and stop pretending you are doing us a favor. We all know that there are not enough spots for everyone at Delta. You want all the 50 seaters eliminated, and no additional flying to off set that. Seems you have a job and you aren't going to be happy until we all don't have one! Mindless hatred.

I came from your end of aviation.

I never once considered attempting to make it a career. Regionals are unstable by their whipsaw foundation. The quicker you realize your cheese was going to be moved regardless the better off you'll be.

 

[General Lee]

It's not an irrational idea to be opposed to allowing 70 more 76 seat aircraft at DCI. That isn't chest beating. We don't have to let the company do it, and certainly not that many. We have far more leverage here than we are using.

Management doesn't want the 50's, so we're letting them get 70 more 76ers to ease their pain, and they're giving us great stuff like block hour ratios in return.

We can get more than what we are getting though! They rushed this TA for a reason. I don't think we can demand mainline fly the 76ers, but we don't have to give them 70 more!

So, do you want to keep the money losing 50 seaters around longer? Yes, there will be 70 more 76 seaters eventually (after all 88 717s come), and then there will be a ratio to maintain with regard to mainline vs DCI. If mainline decreases, then DCI has to decrease. Those 102 70 seat RJs out there will probably fill in for the 50 seaters on their routes that can't make money. That means they have a chance of making money for Detla, rather than losing it. Mainline growth tied in with DCI growth. It can't be one sided DCI growth anymore. That happened after BK and 9-11. This TA would prevent that. Ratios that can't be moved.

And you haven't explained how a 76 seat mainline operation would work? Who flies what, who are the FAs, who are the mechanics? How would that be funded? Maybe if we got ZERO raises, they could pay for that. Right now DCI operations are done at razor thin profit margins, with some going into BK.

Trust me, I initially didn't like a lot of this. Then, I tried to look at the whole deal, improvements in many sections, and then the duration of the deal. I wanted more pay too, and I wasn't thrilled about extra big RJs, until I heard about the ratios, the 150 less 50 seaters, and the better scope protection in INTL and Code Shares. Overall, it isn't a bad deal.


Bye Bye---General Lee