Delta TA on SCOPE

[Crizz]

Get rid of the feed, and you will die on the vine. It is a necessary evil.

76 seat RJ's are not "feed" any more than DC9-10/15s and 737-100/200s were "feed".

The difference is these 76 seaters can do 4+ hour legs. You cant tell me that taking passengers from SLC-ORD or JFK-IAH is "feed".

Even if I were to stipulate that these new jets are "feed" - wasnt this "feed" you speak of done by mainline not long ago?

 

[flyboyike]

76 seat RJ's are not "feed" any more than DC9-10/15s and 737-100/200s were "feed".

The difference is these 76 seaters can do 4+ hour legs. You cant tell me that taking passengers from SLC-ORD or JFK-IAH is "feed".

Even if I were to stipulate that these new jets are "feed" - wasnt this "feed" you speak of done by mainline not long ago?

I was in an MD-88 jumpseat recently. The F/O said something that I found a little disheartening. He said: I don't want to fly 100-seat airplanes, they'll have the same horse******************** MD-88 schedules.

 

[Meiguy]

I am digesting the position paper this enthusiastic "line pilot" has written. I am skeptical of much of it, but feel for credibility sake, I must give it fair consideration or my own arguments fall flat.

I have one question -

the limit on -900's currently is up to 255 correct? But isn't that 255 -700's OR -900's (config'd to 76 seats)?

That's my understanding - please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is that in order to get to 255 -900's they'd have to trade in all of their -700's? Is that good information?

It would also be helpful to know How many RJs delta currently has flying for you?

Thank you

You are correct. We are currently at the max 255 and the only way to get more 76 seaters is to park the 70 seaters as to never exceed the 255. Currently there is 102 70's and 153 76 seaters. If this TA passes those 102 70 seaters will be grandfathered in and 70 more 76 seaters will be allowed.

 

[charlie2]

Get rid of the feed, and you will die on the vine. It is a necessary evil.

You must be management. I fly into our hubs and our paperwork shows that more than half our pax are connecting...I am the "feed". You want bigger outsourcing? Ya gotta ask me nicely. Thanks I don't need your outsourced bigger aircraft doing what I'm already doing. You want 19 seat turbo-props feeding me from east bu- fuc- than ok Mr. management you got it.

 

[waveflyer]

You are correct. We are currently at the max 255 and the only way to get more 76 seaters is to park the 70 seaters as to never exceed the 255. Currently there is 102 70's and 153 76 seaters. If this TA passes those 102 70 seaters will be grandfathered in and 70 more 76 seaters will be allowed.

Anyone dispute these numbers??

These are important numbers are they not?

Conveniently Left out of the "line pilot"'s position paper. Factor in economics of the 50, and it debunks every argument on scope that that pilot made. And he states all no voters bc of scope are just being emotional???

There is every rational responsibility to vote no on this TA- and all members of DALPA will be accountable for the vote of their group.

 

[aircombat]

I was in an MD-88 jumpseat recently. The F/O said something that I found a little disheartening. He said: I don't want to fly 100-seat airplanes, they'll have the same horse******************** MD-88 schedules.

The last time mainline pilots said they didn't want to fly RJs tens of thousands of them were furloughed. So the question is, is the shame of flying an RJ greater than being unemployed? This is just setting you up for another mass scope relief in a possible future bankruptcy and the good pay rates that you traded for these 76 seaters will be taken as well.

 

[Crizz]

I was in an MD-88 jumpseat recently. The F/O said something that I found a little disheartening. He said: I don't want to fly 100-seat airplanes, they'll have the same horse******************** MD-88 schedules.

He may be right about the crap trips on the 717 - who knows?

During my time flying the -900 it was common to do two legs a day, and almost never more than three. In fact, I do more legs on average flying the A320/319 now than I did flying the -900.

The fact is the long range capability of those stretch RJs makes them a completely different animal than most old-school mainline guys realize.

This debate isnt talking about a 50 seater going into lexington... it's talking about a two class mainline replacement jet going from MEM-PHX or ATL-DEN.

 

[Turtle21]

..... According to a FED in my jumpseat not long ago, commercial pilot certificate issuances has dropped over 80% from year 2000 levels. And we are about to mandate an ATP for all airline crews....
.

The pilots will have to come from somewhere... How many pilot trainees does China have?

Imagine ten to fifteen years from now the Chinese will own most airlines and they will be like WalMart.

 

[79%N1]

Why don't you vote no, and demand one list for all DAL flying. Solves ALL your problems!

 

[General Lee]

GL and Bill. Read the contract cover to cover. You'll see then that it is only worthy of your NO vote. Cheers

Respectfully, I disagree. Many want and believe we should hit a "home run" and get huge gains in pay and scope, all because of perceived "leverage". What is that leverage? Our peers, who the NMB TOLD US were AA, UAL, and USAir, haven't helped us at all. No help with pattern bargaining, which the NMB also TOLD US we would have to abide by. Also, we all think we might know what our management may be up to next, but nobody really knows for sure. Do you know? There could be multiple paths management could go with any plan, and that makes the so called leverage worthless. It's a guess at best.

As for the TA itself, it's not as bad as you say when you look at it as a whole. It's not perfect, but 20% for only 3 years and 7 months early with normal negotiations lasting 2 years after the amendable date, and that makes it good. Instead of finishing in 2015 as a normal section 6 negotiation, we would have an extra 20% in pay by that time, getting ready for the NEXT opener. Then throw in improvements for other sections, like sick leave and even an early out proposal. Scope, overall, is tightened and total RJ hulls decrease by almost 80. The additional 76 seaters are tied directly to 717s coming online, and a ratio keeps the numbers in mainline's favor. INTL scope and code shares are also tightened, which was sorely needed also.

Not perfect, but considering our peers still not helping at all, the short 3 year duration, 20% pay increase, and scope tightening, it is looking like the TA isn't as bad as many are saying. A road show should be in your future.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Why don't you vote no, and demand one list for all DAL flying. Solves ALL your problems!

Demand? With what leverage? We don't know management's plans, and we have had zero help in pattern bargaining from any other legacy out there. They can't get their acts together. Instead, let's shrink DCI by 80 hulls but then grow mainline with a ratio, and hire at least 35% minimum for each class pilots from ALPA DCI carriers. Management can't get the same costs Regionals offer on feed. It's just not realistic. It would be nice, but it won't work.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

What is abundantly clear is that most of the "no" voters have very little understanding of the RLA and how the current NMB sees their role in administering it. If you think the NMB is going to help you kick management's ass, then you're living in a fantasy world.

 

[jonjuan]

What is abundantly clear is that most of the "no" voters have very little understanding of the RLA and how the current NMB sees their role in administering it. If you think the NMB is going to help you kick management's ass, then you're living in a fantasy world.

Someone wishes they were able to be hired by delta and continue their career with ALPA.

 

[Turtle21]

... If you think the NMB is going to help you kick management's ass, then you're living in a fantasy world.

That is funny. I was thinking the same thing about ALPA!

 

[waveflyer]

General,

Delta is the only big 3 airline that allows outsourcing >70 seats.
I am not asking for a home run.
I'm asking you to not legitimize the outsourcing of -900's by allowing delta to just about double the amount of -900's it currently has flying at the regionals.

The excuse for outsourcing -900's at all was that you had a "gun to your head" during Bk.
You General Lee, have claimed that the only reason -900's are outsourced at all is bc of BANKRUPTCY. You said, DALPA would never outsource them outside of BK.

So my questions to you are-
1) is delta in BK now?
2) how are you not selfish sellouts if you pass this TA out of BK?

Demand? With what leverage? We don't know management's plans, and we have had zero help in pattern bargaining from any other legacy out there. They can't get their acts together. Instead, let's shrink DCI by 80 hulls but then grow mainline with a ratio, and hire at least 35% minimum for each class pilots from ALPA DCI carriers. Management can't get the same costs Regionals offer on feed. It's just not realistic. It would be nice, but it won't work.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

What is abundantly clear is that most of the "no" voters have very little understanding of the RLA and how the current NMB sees their role in administering it. If you think the NMB is going to help you kick management's ass, then you're living in a fantasy world.

Why do you guys think that delta HAS to double down on outsourcing more -900's, when they are the only big 3 legacy that currently allows that large an aircraft?

And PCL, has any ALPA organization ever made a decision you have not tirelessly worked to defend on FI?

 

[PCL_128]

Why do you guys think that delta HAS to double down on outsourcing more -900's, when they are the only big 3 legacy that currently allows that large an aircraft?

I disagree with your premise. Delta isn't "doubling down" on anything. They are reducing the total number of outsourced seats, airframes, block hours, and ASMs. That's an improvement all around.

And PCL, has any ALPA organization ever made a decision you have not tirelessly worked to defend on FI?

You must not pay very close attention. I vigorously argued against ALPA's change in position on the Age 60 rule in 2007. I'm sure the old posts are still there if you want to search for them. I'm still pissed off about how that was handled. There are plenty of other examples of times when I've disagreed with ALPA International or individual MECs. I can think of a few examples of things going on right now that I disagree with, in fact. None of which has anything to do with the current discussion. You are merely deflecting since people are starting to bring up the hypocrisy, such as SWAPA's patent approval of the company forcing new hires to buy type ratings before starting training, or SWAPA pilots working for decades under substandard conditions while the ALPA legacy carriers fought for improvements.

In other words, to quote Christ, "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." - Matthew 7:5

 

[waveflyer]

Wow, now the bible.

Fair enough PCL on your alpa cheerleading-

But why do you guys bring in SWA when I don't mention it? Do I always have to defend everything swa has ever done in order to speak an opinion born out of well over a decade of airline experience before I got hired at swa? Do you want to pull up my posts prior to be hired at swa- and you'll find me slamming every legacy for their outsourcing.

And even still, you really think the type is comparable to outsourcing?? You think that a free, independent union coming to terms on lower wages than some may like is comparable to outsourcing??

Really?

Because here's the difference. (and this really pisses me off)
SWA, VA F9, Spirit, allegiant,controls inline not outsourced controls their destiny within the boundaries of their scope. . Outsourcing creates a fake market, where regional pilots are whipsawed against each other to artificially keep wages low, where said regional pilots GET NO VOTE IN WHAT FLYING COMES TO THEM- WHERE IF THEY TAKE ANY MEASURE ALLOWED UNDER THE RLA TO EXERT LEVERAGE AND INCREASE THEIR WAGES AND WORK RULES- FLYING WILL SIMPLY BE TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER COMPANY WITH AN OPERATING CERTIFICATE- ALL SOLD TO MAINLINE AS A RESPONSE TO COMPETITIVE PRESSURES FROM OTHER COMPANIES. ???

IE: INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO COMPETITION WITH PAY CUTS (which happened anyway) IT'S JUSTIFIABLE IN THE MIND OF THE MAINLINE PILOT TO LET OTHER PILOTS SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT COMPETITION INSTEAD OF THEM.

IT'S CHICKENSH/T COWARDLY STUFF.

You're bathsh/t crazy if you support this TA. And dead wrong on this issue PCL. Sickening to see anyone defend this.

Where is the scope battle PCL industry wide?? Does it lay in large rj's or small ones that are economically going away anyway?

 

[bri5150]

I think the argument here is that the 200's are going away regardless of whether the ta passes or not. The DALPA folks are trying to take credit like they are the ones that decided they were going to go away. Like it was a hard fought battle with management to reduce the number of 200's in the system. Gee, I wonder why negotiations were so quick? Management: "you guys are okay with taking credit for an airframe already going away? Done, sign on the dotted line."

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, now the bible.

A little melodrama sometimes does well to make a point.

But why do you guys bring in SWA when I don't mention it?

Because the hypocrisy is so heavy that you might as well be beating everyone over the head with it. It's blatantly obvious to anyone outside the SWA "bubble" that a SWAPA pilot criticizing a legacy pilot group for not "holding the line" is just about the most absurd thing imaginable. Just over a decade ago, the Delta pilots were ratifying the most expensive pilot contract in history. Now, here you are so proud of your CBA when it isn't even a shadow of DAL Contract '01. The piloting profession has fallen quite far, and a big part of the reason is carriers like SWA and JetBlue (and yes, AirTran) who were paying their pilots far less than the legacy carriers were making. SWAPA made no attempt to follow the industry pattern. They were perfectly content making a fraction of what the Delta pilots were making. This wasn't 50 years ago, wave, this was a mere 11 years ago. This wasn't before our time. Both of us were in the industry at the time. You're well aware of it. It isn't news to you. So where is your criticism of SWAPA for failing to engage in pattern bargaining to advance the profession? Where is your criticism of SWAPA for being willing to undercut the legacy pilot groups? Until we see some of that criticism, then your criticism of DALPA is nothing more than blatant hypocrisy.

And even still, you really think the type is comparable to outsourcing?? You think that a free, independent union coming to terms on lower wages than some may like is comparable to outsourcing??

The type? No, not really. That's small potatoes. It's still wrong, though, and SWAPA should at least make an effort to put a stop to it (many ALPA pilot groups used bargaining capital in the past to put an end to PFT schemes). But the overall issue of SWAPA's substandard contract prior to 2004? Yes, that's most certainly comparable to outsourcing in terms of damage done to the profession. The lower wages, the lack of a pension, and the work rules that allowed lower staffing levels all placed immense pressure on the legacy pilot groups in bankruptcy court. There wasn't a bankruptcy judge in the country who was going to allow the Delta, USAirways, United, Continental, or Northwest pilots to keep their pensions and pay rates while other mainline carriers were out there attracting hoards of pilots willing to do the job for nothing more than a 401k, 60% of the pay, and more block time. Can you honestly not see this?

Because here's the difference. (and this really pisses me off)
SWA, VA F9, Spirit, allegiant,controls inline not outsourced controls their destiny within the boundaries of their scope. . Outsourcing creates a fake market, where regional pilots are whipsawed against each other to artificially keep wages low, where said regional pilots GET NO VOTE IN WHAT FLYING COMES TO THEM- WHERE IF THEY TAKE ANY MEASURE ALLOWED UNDER THE RLA TO EXERT LEVERAGE AND INCREASE THEIR WAGES AND WORK RULES- FLYING WILL SIMPLY BE TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER COMPANY WITH AN OPERATING CERTIFICATE- ALL SOLD TO MAINLINE AS A RESPONSE TO COMPETITIVE PRESSURES FROM OTHER COMPANIES. ???

IE: INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO COMPETITION WITH PAY CUTS (which happened anyway) IT'S JUSTIFIABLE IN THE MIND OF THE MAINLINE PILOT TO LET OTHER PILOTS SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT COMPETITION INSTEAD OF THEM.

IT'S CHICKENSH/T COWARDLY STUFF.

You're bathsh/t crazy if you support this TA. And dead wrong on this issue PCL. Sickening to see anyone defend this.

Where is the scope battle PCL industry wide?? Does it lay in large rj's or small ones that are economically going away anyway?

Again, as I've said repeatedly, I don't disagree with you about the problems with outsourcing. I want it to end just as you do. My point is that your expectations of ending it abruptly are wildly unrealistic. The problem can be solved, but not the way you think it can. The DAL TA is the first step. The UAL/CAL TA will hopefully be the next step with further improvements. This is pattern bargaining. It takes time, and it's the only way we're going to get anywhere. Because I can assure you, management isn't going to agree to what you want them to agree to, and the NMB isn't going to force them. Therefore, you have zero leverage to accomplish your goal. What you advocate would be a recipe for the Delta pilots living under a bankruptcy era contract indefinitely. That's not a solution for outsourcing, that's just stubbornness and emotional thinking.