Delta TA on SCOPE

[RT8VA]

I am hesitant to post on this thread but here goes. I have to disagree with the assertion that the UniCal negotiations have been no help to Delta or that should some how affect the vote on this TA. Our negotiations have taken on a ridiculous pace but to imply that this is the fault of the two MEC's is completely false and every one knows that. While we have not reached a deal we have also not agreed to any substandard offer just to say that we have a contract done. Maybe there will be a TA here before the Delta pilots get to vote on theirs and maybe not but I wouldn't as a Delta pilot change my vote if I didn't like the deal. I also wouldn't tell a Delta pilot how I think they should vote that is up to them, my brother in law included since he is a Delta pilot. Good luck but stop blaming others and make a decision on your own deal if it is good enough for you or if it isn't that is all that matters. Good Luck.

 

[flyboyike]

No. Next question!



No, I didn't say that. Go back and read again. I think it's hypocritical for you to attack DALPA while absolutely refusing to criticize SWAPA or SWA under any circumstances for things that are also harmful for the profession. If you would openly criticize those things (737 type, substandard CBA until 2004, no DC plan still, etc.), then I wouldn't find it hypocritical for you to criticize DALPA at all. I would still disagree with your analysis on the scope issue, but at least it wouldn't be hypocrisy.



I haven't gotten personal, wave. You've gotten defensive on the 737 type thing all on your own. Go back and read my posts again. I never once criticized you for buying a 737 type. I have no idea how you got your 737 type. My criticism was all related to the fact that you don't criticize SWA's policy to require the type, not that you had one to get a job there. I just want you to be intellectually honest and not attack DALPA without also looking internally at SWA and admitting that a lot of the fall of this profession over the past decade can be attributed to legacy pilots having to compete with pilots making far less at the LCCs.

And this is the Group VP for the group that includes my airline. Sigh....

 

[waveflyer]

PCL-
Start a thread about anything Swa you want- that's not the subject here- just calculated distraction- no airline is perfect and I'm smart enough to know you're trying to get this thread to drift to the always popular Swa bashing instead of DALPA's TA -
I'm just not going there.

I was a pilot with a lot of varied experience before I went to Swa- I'm more than qualified to talk about this subject-
Maybe if legacies hadn't outsourced so crazily, I'd still be a legacy pilot giving you a +10 on how "damaging" Swa has been-

 

[Turtle21]

The problem I've got with the Steve Mayer letter is this.
As a rep you are part of a team, you should, by all means argue vigorously any point you want to make. You should take a strong stand in making that and than the MEC should vote. It's all done behind closed doors for a very good reason. The correct position is what the MAJORITY agree on. Not any one individual's position. That's how it's supposed to work, and when the MEC put's out a position, I think it's quite wrong for an individual to try and undermine what the majority have agreed on with his own personal take.
It's a committee, what they agree on should be the only thing that comes out, individuals trying to promote their own agenda against the will of the majority simply undermines the whole process.
Just a thought.

They are an ALPA serving body. Being self-serving individuals is normal. :lol: but you are correct, they should at least attempt a facade.

 

[Turtle21]

This silly argument about pattern bargaining is nothing but an ALPA accusation to blame pilots for ALPA's failure to arrest the rapid decline to the profession..

And it's used as a distraction to hide how greatly ALPA has profited while pilots have been experiencing pattern bankruptcy and pension loss while ALPA clerks drive a Lexus to the Herndon parking lot.

But other than that ALPA is a pretty cool club, even if it is overpriced.

 

[igneousy2]

The problem I've got with the Steve Mayer letter is this.
As a rep you are part of a team, you should, by all means argue vigorously any point you want to make. You should take a strong stand in making that and than the MEC should vote. It's all done behind closed doors for a very good reason. The correct position is what the MAJORITY agree on. Not any one individual's position. That's how it's supposed to work, and when the MEC put's out a position, I think it's quite wrong for an individual to try and undermine what the majority have agreed on with his own personal take.
It's a committee, what they agree on should be the only thing that comes out, individuals trying to promote their own agenda against the will of the majority simply undermines the whole process.
Just a thought.

I could not disagree with you more in this situation. I think if this was a strike vote, or the vote turned out to be no, then perhaps I might agree with you...at least a little more, but that is not the situation here.

In fact, I think it is the duty of the key players to put out well articulated papers/letters as to why they voted the way they did. Negotiating contracts is about compromise. The MEC and the NC members are the people that have seen all the confidential information, these are the people that sat across from the table with the company looked them in the eye and have a better sense of what might be possible if the TA is voted down then any line pilot.

Pilots are not children, we do not need nor want a unified front from our parents (MEC). Put ALL the information and opinions out there and let the pilots decide.

Once a TA is put out for a vote, I fail to see how individual members of the MEC and NC stating their opinions somehow makes the Delta pilots as a whole worse off. In what way does it have a negative effect on the process? I only see positives for the pilot group.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Point taken Bubba.....but why is your example a BAD thing? Until you lived it...it's easy to throw rocks at it. Next thing you are going to tell me is that the next startup or SWA will start taking the public bus because you think "it's stupid" to have a crew transport?

Seriously....no dig here....where does the toilet stop flushing?

I actually was not trying to throw rocks at anyone. When it happened, I was new to the industry and astonished, because I didn't know how much of this worked. I was trying to point out that although SWA started with a relatively poor contract when it was brand new and on tenuous survival status (as does every new airline) that our pilot group has always made steady progress on increasing our pay and bettering our contact, and more importantly for the industry (and of course, ourselves), we've never sacrificed our juniors for a quick buck. Nor have we sold out flying. That's actually a good example for the entire industry. Getting a large payraise at the expense of junior pilots may immediately look good on paper, but ultimately is a very bad thing for every other airline in the country, when the inevitable downward stroke comes.

As far as that specific Delta example of the van, I'm guessing it's probably easy to ask for a lot of that stuff when your company is flush (along with attractive pay increases, of course), but I think that presupposes the cyclic nature of the profession, and I think that on some level, these guys must have in the back of their minds that "we'll get the money now, but some of us will be furloughed later."

When I was looking to get out of the military in late 2000, all the majors were hiring bigtime. After doing MY research, I only applied to Southwest. At the time, I knew I would make somewhat less money, and work a little harder (not that anything we do is actually hard), but the positives outweighed that. At least for me. More fun at the job, slow but steady pay increases, and most importantly, none of that cyclic crap where I'd have to plan on a furlough or two in my career. My personal plan was to never have to look for another job in my life. Obviously no one could have forseen 9/11 & the meteoric rise in gas prices, and then the speed of the resultant downward spiral of the industry, but I suspect everyone knew that a downward movement was the next cycle for the industry regardless.

Not saying that Southwest was the right choice for everyone, but it was for me, not wanting to deal with the downs in addition to the ups. I was simply pointing out to PCL that Southwest pilots' steady progress has been a good example for the industry overall.

Bubba

 

[igneousy2]

Nor have we sold out flying. That's actually a good example for the entire industry. Getting a large payraise at the expense of junior pilots may immediately look good on paper, but ultimately is a very bad thing for every other airline in the country, when the inevitable downward stroke comes.

At the time, I knew I would make somewhat less money, and work a little harder (not that anything we do is actually hard),
Bubba

...and you STILL don't get it....you still don't see the contradiction. Everybody wants your hourly rate, right now, but that won't last long, the legacies got whacked pretty good, but it'll come back one step at a time.

I would guess that most of us on here wouldn't want your retirement "plan", work rules, work with guys that taxi-around at VR and then run out onto the ramp and start off-loading bags either.

Let's be clear, what little you have done at SWA to help this profession is far off-set by the damage that was done all those years agreeing to work harder for a fraction of what everybody else was getting.

You have only now reached, where the rest of legacies were back in 2001. They have all been knocked down and you have been left standing. That's great, and I don't wish any harm onto your pilot group, But don't come on here like your group are a bunch of trail-blazers at the edge of the envelope in improving conditions for pilots. That they are not.

 

[Turtle21]

...and you STILL don't get it....you still don't see the contradiction. Everybody wants your hourly rate, right now, but that won't last long, the legacies got whacked pretty good, but it'll come back one step at a time.

I would guess that most of us on here wouldn't want your retirement "plan", work rules, work with guys that taxi-around at VR and then run out onto the ramp and start off-loading bags either.

Let's be clear, what little you have done at SWA to help this profession is far off-set by the damage that was done all those years agreeing to work harder for a fraction of what everybody else was getting.

You have only now reached, where the rest of legacies were back in 2001. They have all been knocked down and you have been left standing. That's great, and I don't wish any harm onto your pilot group, But don't come on here like your group are a bunch of trail-blazers at the edge of the envelope in improving conditions for pilots. That they are not.

Yeah, ALPA's pattern destruction will eventually overtake SouthWest too.

 

[Dan Roman]

...and you STILL don't get it....you still don't see the contradiction. Everybody wants your hourly rate, right now, but that won't last long, the legacies got whacked pretty good, but it'll come back one step at a time.

I would guess that most of us on here wouldn't want your retirement "plan", work rules, work with guys that taxi-around at VR and then run out onto the ramp and start off-loading bags either.

Let's be clear, what little you have done at SWA to help this profession is far off-set by the damage that was done all those years agreeing to work harder for a fraction of what everybody else was getting.

You have only now reached, where the rest of legacies were back in 2001. They have all been knocked down and you have been left standing. That's great, and I don't wish any harm onto your pilot group, But don't come on here like your group are a bunch of trail-blazers at the edge of the envelope in improving conditions for pilots. That they are not.

Well you may disagree with me above, but I have to say you hit the head on the nail here. This isn't SWA bashing at all, it's simply reality. SWA is doing well now and good for them. I don't hold anything against them at all and frankly, you have to give SWA credit for raising the bar regarding the importance of treating the employee's well and how that positively effects the profits (although it appears their little warrior spirit mantra is pretty clearly a ruse to get them to be more co-operative come contract time!) But a SWA pilot bashing the legacies is classless, lacking in perspective and just plan hypocritical.
When we look back 10 years from now, it will be the ALPA legacies that will raise the bar for our industry, not SWAPA.

 

[waveflyer]

Do YOU get igneousy, "get" that I was a legacy pilot?

Are you saying that someone who expected a career at mainline, but was forced out in large part due to outsourcing, can't express an opinion on outsourcing ONLY bc of where I work now?

...and you STILL don't get it....you still don't see the contradiction. Everybody wants your hourly rate, right now, but that won't last long, the legacies got whacked pretty good, but it'll come back one step at a time.

I would guess that most of us on here wouldn't want your retirement "plan", work rules, work with guys that taxi-around at VR and then run out onto the ramp and start off-loading bags either.

Let's be clear, what little you have done at SWA to help this profession is far off-set by the damage that was done all those years agreeing to work harder for a fraction of what everybody else was getting.

You have only now reached, where the rest of legacies were back in 2001. They have all been knocked down and you have been left standing. That's great, and I don't wish any harm onto your pilot group, But don't come on here like your group are a bunch of trail-blazers at the edge of the envelope in improving conditions for pilots. That they are not.

 

[waveflyer]

Scope
While the changes to scope are harder to quantify than pay, I do believe that there is an overall improvement in scope. I do not, however, believe it is a “home run” as others have stated. Block hours will transfer from the DCI carriers to the mainline under this agreement. I think we can all agree that the transfer of flying from DCI to mainline is a good thing. However, when we look at the scope section closely, it is not as rosy as some will have you believe. Note also that the pilot group did not receive any “negotiating credit” for the scope changes that the Company wanted.

Current RJ Limits

• Unlimited propeller-driven aircraft up to 70 seats

• Unlimited jet aircraft up to 50 seats

• 255 limit on 70/76-seat jet aircraft. Currently there are 102 70-seat jet aircraft and 153 76-seat aircraft. Total 255.

• 3 to 1 growth of 76-seat aircraft/mainline once there are 767 aircraft on the mainline, up to a maximum of 255 76-seat aircraft.

TA Limits

• Hard cap of 450 DCI aircraft (with a few limited exceptions). GOOD

• Hard cap of 125 50-seat aircraft. GOOD

• Hard cap of 102 70-seat aircraft EVEN

• Hard cap of 223 76-seat aircraft. (Must take delivery of all 88 B-717 aircraft.) BAD

While we have accomplished setting a “hard cap” on the DCI carriers’ fleets, we have allowed the company to outsource an additional 70 76-seat jets. Under the current PWA, the company could exchange 70-seat RJs for 76-seat RJs if the mainline fleet exceeded 767. While technically they could increase the number of 76-seat aircraft up to a limit of 255, this scenario is highly unlikely. I doubt the company could justify the additional expense of (in most cases) swapping to a 76-seat jet just to add 6 seats. The additional 76-seat RJs are equivalent to “two Compass Airlines.” The key point is that there will be 325 70/76-seat jets that will be outsourced under this agreement. I remember that when I got hired at Northwest, the number of DC-9s on the property (note that this was before the small RJs were born) totaled around 180 aircraft. In the ensuing 17 years, the numbers of RJs have increased by the hundreds, while mainline aircraft have dwindled. That is a hard pill to swallow. Also understand that the block-hour (BH) ratios in place between domestic mainline and DCI do not make a distinction between which DCI aircraft block hours would be pulled down if the Company fell out of compliance due to a domestic mainline BH reduction. This means that if DCI needs to reduce their block hours, the carriers (and Delta) could choose to further reduce 50-seat block hours and leave the 76-seat block hours untouched. In an extreme example that incorporated a significant domestic mainline BH reduction, it could be possible that the DCI flying would be comprised of only 76-seat RJs.
So, in an increasing BH environment, DCI can only add 76-seat RJs as 717s arrive at mainline. That’s positive. However, in a decreasing BH environment, the disincentive/penalty for the company isn’t as great, since they can return to compliance by reducing usage in the smaller, more inefficient aircraft that they want to ultimately “park” anyway. It’s more negative for the pilot group when potentially larger domestic mainline aircraft are reduced than the Company’s disincentive for doing so.

Again- this^^^
It's a rational argument to vote no.

-900's become industry standard if DALPA votes this in.

 

[xjhawk]

As per a MEC vote and how the Reps voted and why is great information. I am not a fan of "let all the losing voters change their votes so that we can present a united front for the membership" practice because it presents a false reality. I am all about being a team player and living with what the majority voted but there is an issue here that needs to be addressed.

There might be something about those who say the ones who lost in their vote published the counter point out of spite because they lost. That can hold water in an argument because this is such an explosive issue. But what really matters here is information dissemination. We as members need all the information to make a well informed vote. Every Rep standing for the vote sends a message that their decision is the one they want and expect the membership to make.

I don't know about your MEC, but ours in the past have been less about transparency and more about making sure everyone was toe to the line. Even their slide show presentations about pay and seniority were right out of a book I read in college "how to lie with statistics".

All I am saying is it is good to have all the information and know the opinions of those who have ALL of the information concerning a situation.

I am a regional Pilot and stand to lose my captain position and maybe even my job over this TA and I still think that scope should be tightened more than this TA requires. But it is not my flying to protect but I do not want to be a regional pilot for too much longer.

I just hope the Delta pilots make the right decision for themselves and for the right reasons.

 

[Turtle21]

.

...I just hope the Delta pilots make the right decision for themselves and for the right reasons.

Have complete confidence that ALPA leaders make the right decision about what information you need to have (and don't need to have) in order for you to make the best decision for them.

 

[Turtle21]

Well you may disagree with me above, but I have to say you hit the head on the nail here. This isn't SWA bashing at all, it's simply reality. SWA is doing well now and good for them. I don't hold anything against them at all and frankly, you have to give SWA credit for raising the bar regarding the importance of treating the employee's well and how that positively effects the profits (although it appears their little warrior spirit mantra is pretty clearly a ruse to get them to be more co-operative come contract time!) But a SWA pilot bashing the legacies is classless, lacking in perspective and just plan hypocritical.
When we look back 10 years from now, it will be the ALPA legacies that will raise the bar for our industry, not SWAPA.

ALPA never saw a dollar you had that they wouldn't give to your company if it got them another dime in dues.

If I had a dime for every time I heard ALPA bluster about raising the bar I wouldn't have to sell pencils on the street corner before going to dinner on my overnights. :lol:

 

[GogglesPisano]

ALPA never saw a dollar you had that they wouldn't give to your company if it got them another dime in dues.

Help me out here. How does ALPA negotiating pay cuts/meager increases increase their dues?

 

[Dan Roman]

Help me out here. How does ALPA negotiating pay cuts/meager increases increase their dues?

It's called USAPA logic!

 

[Turtle21]

Help me out here. How does ALPA negotiating pay cuts/meager increases increase their dues?

:lol: let's argue about the preservation of their dime and be distracted from our dollar.

ALPA good. ALPA do no wrong. ALPA live today, fight tomorrow. ALPA important like air you breath. Pull my finger!

 

[igneousy2]

Do YOU get igneousy, "get" that I was a legacy pilot?

Are you saying that someone who expected a career at mainline, but was forced out in large part due to outsourcing, can't express an opinion on outsourcing ONLY bc of where I work now?

I thought I was prety clear that I was responding to Bubba in this instance.

 

[GogglesPisano]

:lol: let's argue about the preservation of their dime and be distracted from our dollar.

ALPA good. ALPA do no wrong. ALPA live today, fight tomorrow. ALPA important like air you breath. Pull my finger!

Logic not your strong point? I understand. Try answering the question more slowly.