Delta TA on SCOPE

[CheapFlyer]

Every argument used today could be used to justify outsourcing a 717 sized aircraft in the next BK.

That's exactly what's scary, we are one BK away from this happening.

 

[701EV]

Yeah- apparently the average DALPA widebody pilot thinks "Regional" = North America. And "Feed"= single aisle domestic

Waveflyer, thats funny!!

 

[General Lee]

If all the mainline pilots believe this, it's over - management has won.

I'm still chuckling on his reference of "feed". As in 76 seaters "feeding" pax from DTW to DFW. Again, management has won.

But we have shrunk the DCI network with this TA. Yes, the 50 seaters are getting old, but they still have long leases associated with many of them. You either fix them, or trade them up for fewer of them. It's a win win. You get to dump older 50 seaters than nobody but Embry Riddle newhires like, and add a plane that will fly the same route regardless, but maybe make a profit at it. Then, you reduce the numbers overall by 200 50 seaters, and then add 70 larger ones, that will fly the same routes anyway. On top of that, add 88 717s that will fly places that our old mainline planes used to fly, and that will mean many current CR9s and E175s will be replaced on their most profitable routes (put a 717 on it, make more money).

That DTW to DFW run, or the recently announced LGA to DFW/IAH routes, will probably get 717s on them. If the TA doesn't pass, there is no way to tell whether or not the 717s will even come (all press releases say they are coming IF the TA is passed). If the 200 50 seaters stick around, there may be too much capacity in the system to add 88 717s. It actually makes sense. Most airlines have been reducing capacity, and raising fares. So, you don't want to add 88 717s into the mix and NOT remove something. 70 76 seaters will be added as well, but removing those 50 seaters is a big piece of this puzzle, and without it happening, the 717s may just be too much. You just can't argue with that.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Yeah- apparently the average DALPA widebody pilot thinks "Regional" = North America. And "Feed"= single aisle domestic-

Every argument used today could be used to justify outsourcing a 717 sized aircraft in the next BK.

The TA adds 88 717s (I bet you've seen them). Those will cover all of the CR9 and E175 current routes easily. And as far as the next BK (it may be you next) goes, there is no reason to guess what could or could not be next. AA won't be forced to give Eagle larger planes (larger than 76 seats), because the peers do not do that. But anything could happen according to you. Especially if MARS ATTACKS!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Right now AA only has 70 seats-
You're cool with giving their mgmt leverage to get -900's?

 

[flyboyike]

Right now AA only has 70 seats-
You're cool with giving their mgmt leverage to get -900's?

Especially if they merge with USAir whose scope allows for up to 86 seats at the regionals, not 76.

 

[777forever]

Right now AA only has 70 seats-
You're cool with giving their mgmt leverage to get -900's?

Come tomorrow AMR will be permitted to have 900s. You need to learn how to pick your battles wisely.



Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[waveflyer]

Come tomorrow AMR will be permitted to have 900s. You need to learn how to pick your battles wisely.



Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

They're in BK and apparently care about the issue more than you

How's that 777 treating you, widebody pilot?

 

[Twisted Mind]

Just read in a press release pinnacle has stopped negotiating with ALPA. Pinnacle said they need more concessions in order to be competitive with other contract carriers due to delta TA. The whipsaw has begun already and the TA has not yet passed.

 

[777forever]

FYI Currently you have outsourced:

348 50 Seaters
102 65-69 Seaters
153 76 Seaters
Total: 603 Aircraft / 35862 seats

Proposed outsourcing:
125 "70 seaters" (using 67 as an average again = 8750 seats)
223 76 seaters (16948 seats)
Total: 348 Aircraft / 25698 seats

Total seats go down by about 28%. But, when was the last time you saw a 50 seater running DTW-IAH, SLC-LAX, LGA-ORD, JFK-ORD, or MSP-YVR?

I think if you looked at the average miles flown by the 900/175 you'd see that the seat mile reduction is probably much less than 28%.

Doubt it. Anyways seat miles is insignificant. That is a purely corporate finance term. Pilots concern with scope involves pilot jobs, which is determined by block hours. The block hour ratio requirement in this contract drives pilot jobs strongly towards mainline.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[waveflyer]

Doubt it. Anyways seat miles is insignificant. That is a purely corporate finance term. Pilots concern with scope involves pilot jobs, which is determined by block hours. The block hour ratio requirement in this contract drives pilot jobs strongly towards mainline.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Seriously, is life good in that 777?

Real pilots fly airplanes with two aisles don't they?

 

[PCL_128]

Seriously, is life good in that 777?

Real pilots fly airplanes with two aisles don't they?

He flies an RJ. One of the ones that could be parked if this TA passes. He's just smart enough to realize that the scope improvements in this TA reduce outsourcing, and increase his chances of getting a mainline job sooner. In other words, that junior RJ FO is smarter than you.

 

[waveflyer]

You mean the mainline one with "30,000 apps for 1,000 jobs- easier said than done"? That mainline job? I mean if you cant get that job, who can, right?

If he does believe that, he's as dumb as you. (There, now we've both "called" each other dumb.)

The 50's were going to be parked anyway. The -900's allow the whipsaw market to be reloaded with airplanes that work in this economy and with fuel prices going forward. Mgmt needs these airplanes to keep the whipsaw market going and influential and DALPA's falling for it.

 

[Golden Falcon]

in the good old days planes like F28's the later the BAE146 and the like were flown by mainline pilots...the big mistake made by mainline pilots was to NOT staple or acknowledge the existence of regional pilots during the early stages of the "Eagles/Expressed" etc...now it come back to bite them, scope is an attempt to remedy this error, but the horse is out of the barn folks...anything over 50 seats should be mainline IMHO...but hey all the regional pilots WOULD be mainline pilots wouldn't they, except your own arrogance got in the way...enjoy it!! It's a great show for all of us to watch from here in the cheap seats...

 

[screamingpax]

Seriously, is life good in that 777?

Real pilots fly airplanes with two aisles don't they?

No...Real pilots fly amphibs, taildraggers, helicopters, etc. Inflated egos fly jet airliners. With few exceptions, it takes no more skill or "piloting abilty" to fly a 767 or a A319, or a CRJ900. Thats why there are so many morons in this industry. Anybody can limp through the system.

You all act like you are so special and the company should bow at your feet begging you to work for them. You are pilots, not oracles. You are simply a tool that a company uses to produce a profit. Delta is not in business to provide you with a job. They are there to make a profit.

General, I will have to say the fact that you are reading this TA, soliciting questions about it, researching it, etc, rather than a straight no, solely based on one issue is nice to see. Maybe you are more of a rational and intelligent person then I previously thought.

As far as the 50 seat issue. While, they are being phased out, they will not even be close to this number by the date you all specified in the TA. Fuel prices are not and have not been high enough in the past few years to break contracts and panic. They will only loose a few here and there as contracts on them expire. Airlines do know its coming. United, I do believe is pulling E135s out of the desert. A reduction in the number of 50 seaters by the date this TA specified would be catastrophic to the regionals.

Go ahead and demand more from your company. With AA in BK and the other majors riding the edge of failure, you are playing with a fragile industry. If Delta is making an enormous profit, it helps to reduce their debt and make them stronger for the future. It will position them leaps and bounds ahead of the others, and promise job security so long as no more jobs leave to other carriers. If Delta has to dramatically raise ticket prices overnight, maybe the others will follow. Maybe they won't knowing business will shift their way because they are cheaper and Delta will struggle with high costs and lower demand ( a fight which can only last so long). I do believe ticket prices should go up a lot, but if Delta is the only raising the bar while United, American, US Air are holding it down, the bar will snap and guess who will go bust. The bar needs to be raised slowly and positively everytime.

Also, I understand its a fairly short term contract. By the time this one gets thrown back to the table, renegotiated and voted on, you may be working on the next TA if this one were to pass.

 

[777forever]

No...Real pilots fly amphibs, taildraggers, helicopters, etc. Inflated egos fly jet airliners. With few exceptions, it takes no more skill or "piloting abilty" to fly a 767 or a A319, or a CRJ900. Thats why there are so many morons in this industry. Anybody can limp through the system.

You all act like you are so special and the company should bow at your feet begging you to work for them. You are pilots, not oracles. You are simply a tool that a company uses to produce a profit. Delta is not in business to provide you with a job. They are there to make a profit.

General, I will have to say the fact that you are reading this TA, soliciting questions about it, researching it, etc, rather than a straight no, solely based on one issue is nice to see. Maybe you are more of a rational and intelligent person then I previously thought.

As far as the 50 seat issue. While, they are being phased out, they will not even be close to this number by the date you all specified in the TA. Fuel prices are not and have not been high enough in the past few years to break contracts and panic. They will only loose a few here and there as contracts on them expire. Airlines do know its coming. United, I do believe is pulling E135s out of the desert. A reduction in the number of 50 seaters by the date this TA specified would be catastrophic to the regionals.

Go ahead and demand more from your company. With AA in BK and the other majors riding the edge of failure, you are playing with a fragile industry. If Delta is making an enormous profit, it helps to reduce their debt and make them stronger for the future. It will position them leaps and bounds ahead of the others, and promise job security so long as no more jobs leave to other carriers. If Delta has to dramatically raise ticket prices overnight, maybe the others will follow. Maybe they won't knowing business will shift their way because they are cheaper and Delta will struggle with high costs and lower demand ( a fight which can only last so long). I do believe ticket prices should go up a lot, but if Delta is the only raising the bar while United, American, US Air are holding it down, the bar will snap and guess who will go bust. The bar needs to be raised slowly and positively everytime.

Also, I understand its a fairly short term contract. By the time this one gets thrown back to the table, renegotiated and voted on, you may be working on the next TA if this one were to pass.

Somebody GETS IT! Well said

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[waveflyer]

Wow- thanks mr. Management.

 

[CheapFlyer]

. Pilots concern with scope involves pilot jobs, which is determined by block hours. The block hour ratio requirement in this contract drives pilot jobs strongly towards mainline.

So the other 1720 (172*10) jobs shouldn't be at mainline?

Justify that.

 

[waveflyer]

So the other 1720 (172*10) jobs shouldn't be at mainline?

Justify that.

Got an answer?

 

[PCL_128]

What "should" happen and what is achievable are two entirely different concepts.