Delta realignment

[michael707767]

Why should Embraer give big discounts to DL when they can sell them at a higher price to Republic, Mesa, etc?

hmm, by the same token why should Airbus have given JetBlue a great deal some years ago, when they could get a higher price from NW, UAL, USAir, etc. Bottom line is, market share counts. And every time Airbus or Embraer or Boeing locks in a new customer, it means that airline does not buy from the competition and it means that the odds of you selling more aircraft to that customer increased dramatically. It doesn't always work though. I bet Airbus never thought JetBlue would not buy a 100 seater from them. It's a funny, funny industry.

 

[michael707767]

In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

Know what, there are right. Delta does own the code. And Delta chose to sign a contract with the Delta pilots giving them rights to a large portion of that code. They did not have to do that. But they did. Deal with it.

 

[N2264J]

read again what YOU just wrote. Your MECs were denied a seat when MAINLINE scope was being negotiated. Why should you be at the table when mainline scope is negotiated?

Because at the time, there were three MECs, presumably equal in stature in the eyes of the union, on the Delta property. Your MEC left a huge hole in scope with "permitted aircraft" and we were prevented by our own union from addressing that problem. We were told ALPA's brand scope ploy was the answer but it proved to be only a "feel good" diversion.

ALPA left us wide open then refused to let us address the problem with Delta using our own bargaining capital. Now Chautauqua is operating a type rating that goes all the way to 110 seats while Delta retires the 737-200. I think it's highly unlikely that the Delta pilots will ever see that flying again and you don't have the bargaining leverage to stop it (exacerbated by not wanting to merge with us thereby getting control of almost all the flying). In other words, your scope has not only been harmful to us at Comair and ASA but to the mainline pilots as well. It hasn't saved one mainline job. You've been duped.

http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

 

[~~~^~~~]

At the end of the day, you and the RJDC believe that no pilot group can control the outsourcing of an airlines code and that an airline, like DAL, should be allowed to outsource all of its code without restriction.

Again in your own words:

Quote:

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?

In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

FDJ2:

You often repeat this quote and try to tell everyone it means something other than what its says. Has your own zeal blinded you?

The RJDC's position is that the Delta pilots can not control code that they contract not to fly. If the Delta pilots want to contract for all Delta flying - GREAT The problem is that the Delta pilots only want to perform some of Delta's flying while outsourcing the flying they deem as being beneath them. The RJDC believes, as do I, that once the Delta pilots sell their scope, it no longer belongs to them.

The current race for the bottom is fostered by your approach. Because ALPA will not allow an ASA to scope any code, a alter ego free for all has been created. This free for all has negatively effected the Delta pilots because the low cost alternatives like MESA and CHQ do not even bring in the revenue to support the Comair level of pay and benefits. (Comair is seeing their flying diluted as CHQ and Mesa is getting hours - DCI is still growing)

My thought is that the Delta pilots have the first bite at the scope apple. If they toss the part of the apple they don't want at the curb, it then belongs to the ants.

By the same token, once you outsource your flying in exchange for a better contract, then it becomes somebody else's flying and they should be able to protect it from alter ego encroachment.

We can't even have a safety program like ASAP at ASA because our HR Department wants to turn it into a item to negotiate in our contract. Pay for safety - what a bunch of crap. This alone should prove the point that the regional guys have zero negotiating capital - thanks to the Delta MEC who wants to control flying that they don't want to do themselves.

If you let us have our RJ's then you have to take the remote control box of the jet and let us try to improve our end of the profession. It all boils down to representation. ALPA will not allow regional pilots to enter into contracts with the parties that have operational control of their airlines. Without scope there is nothing to bind pilots and code together.

Do you really think the profession is headed in the right direction? Do you really think Delta pilots have benefitted from all the outsourcing your pilots have ratified? Even though General Lee hates Jet Blue's pay rates, isn't there something to be said for "All Jet Blue Flying is performed by Jet Blue Pilots?" Heck they have perfectg scope and they don't even have a union.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

P.S. Is ALPA worse than no union at all? Perhaps with the SkyWest deal ASA pilots will be asked to make that decision.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Now Chautauqua is operating a type rating that goes all the way to 110 seats while Delta retires the 737-200. I think it's highly unlikely that the Delta pilots will ever see that flying again and you don't have the bargaining leverage to stop it (exacerbated by not wanting to merge with us thereby getting control of almost all the flying). In other words, your scope has not only been harmful to us at Comair and ASA but to the mainline pilots as well. It hasn't saved one mainline job. You've been duped.

This guy is exactly right. Any of the Delta pilots beginning to realize it yet?

 

[regionaltard]

This guy is exactly right. Any of the Delta pilots beginning to realize it yet?

I know of at least one who definitely hasn't........

 

[Crash Pad]

What are you all talking about? Delta is incapable of making money in the modern invironment.

Expand international: You lose $500,000 an hour. How many trips to London or expansion to Puerta Vallarta are going to do to make that up. What % of Delta flying is international?

100 seat thing: Chataqua, Skywest, Mesa, Mainline... Who gives a sh@t... No matter who flyes it for Delta... Delta will lose money doing it.

Shrink CVG: Now you're on to something. If it doesn't make money STOP DOING IT!

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2:

You often repeat this quote and try to tell everyone it means something other than what its says. Has your own zeal blinded you?UOTE]

Earth to Fins, the quote is very easy to understand, according to the RJDC and its lawsuit, no pilot group has the right to control its code, only its aircraft. You see Fins, you support a lawsuit that is aimed at eliminating scope protections and allowing airlines to outsource more and more of their code to low bidders. You need to educate yourself.

 

[PGTB]

Whats clear is the RJDC is not out for whats right and whats wrong, they are out for themselves only.

 

[skykid]

My fear for Delta is they are going to get just enough relief (sale of regional, sale of aircraft, pension payment timeframe extended) that they are going to limp through the deadline for Ch11 under the old rules. I hope they can change drastically enough without Ch11, but it doesn't seem possible. I also don't see how a company with their complexity is going to be successful in Ch11 under next month's new rules.

 

[michael707767]

If the Delta pilots want to contract for all Delta flying - GREAT The problem is that the Delta pilots only want to perform some of Delta's flying while outsourcing the flying they deem as being beneath them. The RJDC believes, as do I, that once the Delta pilots sell their scope, it no longer belongs to them.

so you think we have the right to scope, but only if we have scope for all flying?? Good luck in your future negotiations, cause I don't think there are any pilot groups with enough leverage to have scope coverging all flying. So according to you, non of us can have any scope.

 

[michael707767]

My fear for Delta is they are going to get just enough relief (sale of regional, sale of aircraft, pension payment timeframe extended) that they are going to limp through the deadline for Ch11 under the old rules.

I totally agree with you. Better to go ahead and do it. But I fear they will avoid CH11 at all costs, even if it means we go CH7 later on.

 

[~~~^~~~]

so you think we have the right to scope, but only if we have scope for all flying?? Good luck in your future negotiations, cause I don't think there are any pilot groups with enough leverage to have scope coverging all flying. So according to you, non of us can have any scope.

Jeesh - what is so hard to understand about this?

There is flying that mainline has agreed to outsource. They don't want to do it. They have sold it. It is not theirs.

Scope what you want to fly. Allow other parties to scope what you do not want to fly.

Once you agree not to perform a certain type of flying - take your hands off.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The RJDC does not believe that any pilot group can own its code, an airline's code, according to the RJDC, can only be controlled by the airline, not the pilot group. According to the RJDC, contract language that limits an airlines ability to outsource is illegal.

FDJ2,
I'm not going to argue whether or not DALPA can "own it's code" or whether this violates ALPA's DFR. Those horses have been beat to death. One question I have for you is:

If the DAL, UAL, NWA, AAA and AMR pilot groups "own" their code, then why are there over 7000 of these pilots on furlough while other pilots are hired to fly their "code"? Were they sold out by the pilots who remain? Did they really not "own" their flying after all? If this flying was "owned" by these groups, why don't those 7000+ pilots still fly those codes?

Joe

 

[JoeMerchant]

read again what YOU just wrote. Your MECs were denied a seat when MAINLINE scope was being negotiated. Why should you be at the table when mainline scope is negotiated?

Because it affects me. It's a very simple concept Michael. ALPA represents BOTH of us, therefor when it goes to the table, it has to represent me too. While DALPA may make the decisions, legally only ALPA exists.