Delta realignment

[finnjl]

Interesting fact.

It was extremely close to one year ago that Delta announced it was closing its DFW Hub. Interesting now Delta is announcing it is scaling back its CVG Hub. Delta likes to announce changes in September. Wonder whats in store for next year.

 

[Heavy Set]

Not really a comparable situation as Air Canada has a near monopoly and the Canadian gov't would never have allowed them to liquidate.

But for more accurate comparisons...take a look at UAL and USAirways. Do you see them buying up lots of new planes? No. They've deferred deliveries for many, many years into the future. Even healthier carriers like AA aren't buying up planes. AA will take delivery of 2 777's and then nothing until 2010.

If AA can't afford planes for that long, what makes you think DL (a far weaker airline) can?

DL's credit rating is so poor that attractive financing just isn't going to happen. And a CH11 filing won't help the matter...DL will be viewed as a deadbeat. Why should Boeing cut a deal with DL for new 737's when more stable carriers like Airtran and Southwest are buying them up rapidly?

Both West Jet and Jets Go (now defunct) were driving down fares in Canada at the time but Air Canada still got exit financing and ordered new aircraft. It's not unusual because the aircraft already had established routes to fly and international routes tend to be pretty profitable.

I would bet that Embraer would be interested in providing big discounts if Delta made a big order of E170s/E190s just like Air Canada did... Didn't Grinstein or someone senior say he was impressed with the Embraer product?

 

[General Lee]

Curious what these would be. Besides the major capital cities of South America, the other cities (Cali, Medellin, Chihuahua, etc) are flown by American or Continental themselves (non-codeshare) or their regional partners.

CAL prob has the most Mexico coverage and AA the most South America coverage

Wonder what "new market" Delta is going to tap into.

I also meant Latin America. We just announced San Pedro Sula, Managua, and Roatan(only daily nonstop american carrier). We already serve San Salvador, San Jose, Panama, Guatamala City, and Liberia. Not bad. In South America we serve Lima, Caracas, Sao Paulo (twice daily from ATL), Rio (nonstop daily in December----trying to get JFK to EZE nonstop), Bogota, Santiago, and Buenos Aires. We are looking at Quito and Guayquil, maybe La Paz and anything AA does from MIA. MIA is a hole. Everyone hates it. ATL has more connections and you don't have to speak Spanish. (you know I am right)

AS far as other new routes we have just announced, here you go:

From JFK--Mexico--PVR, SJD(Los Cabos), CZM, and ACA
From ATL-Mexico--daily nonstop to PVR, more to Cancun
From LAX---to Cozumel
From SLC--To Cozumel, and Puerto Vallarta, also Mazatlan on CHQ E170
From CVG--Daily to Montego Bay and Cancun

From ATL---Carribbean--new nonstops to Barbados, Antigua, more to St Martaen, more to Montego Bay

New to Europe from ATL--Dusseldorf.



There are probably others. It is amazing how Delta has figured out that INTL is the place to be. But, domestic feed is important too for these new routes. Any other questions?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[N2264J]

Originally Posted by N2264J
Try as you might to redirect the argument, your hypothetical misses the point. We were prevented by our own union from the opportunity to even attempt to protect ourselves from the serious hole in the mainline scope clause concerning "permitted aircraft." We were locked out.

so you say. My sources say otherwise.

That doesn't surprise me. But my sources are Terry Erskine, Leo Mullin and Duane Woerth. The Comair and ASA MECs were denied a seat at the table when mainline scope was being negotiated. They were denied the opportunity, by our own union, to seek job security provisions with the entity that controls all the flying-Delta Air Lines.


http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

 

[MedFlyer]

Both West Jet and Jets Go (now defunct) were driving down fares in Canada at the time but Air Canada still got exit financing and ordered new aircraft. It's not unusual because the aircraft already had established routes to fly and international routes tend to be pretty profitable.

The reason AC got financing was because everyone knew the Canadian gov't wouldn't let their ONLY flagship airline to liquidate. Not a chance.

I would bet that Embraer would be interested in providing big discounts if Delta made a big order of E170s/E190s just like Air Canada did... Didn't Grinstein or someone senior say he was impressed with the Embraer product?

Why should Embraer give big discounts to DL when they can sell them at a higher price to Republic, Mesa, etc? Those regionals don't need big discounts because they can get attractive financing.

I agree that DL mainline will need to grow and I think DL will try to get more 737's, 777's or 787's for mainline. However, if DL is busy buying those, I don't think DL will also be able to finance E170/E190's. That's too many planes for DL to finance.

 

[N2264J]

Come on now. Dilusional is how I describe your recap. RJDC people are lazy people who want larger airplanes at their regional, so they don't have to leave their airline to go up (the natural progression), and so they can keep their earned vacation time (4 weeks in MYR) and keep weekends off. IF they actually tried to submit a resume to a major (like CAL--hiring 60 a month---go for it) they may actually have to START OVER, as an FO (oh my gosh), and might have to do walkarounds, in the rain! They haven't had to do that since they upgraded on the Bandit in 1983.

Larger aircraft should go to mainline, and then the regional guys should want to move UP to mainline. The RJDC is full of lazy people.


Bye Bye--General Lee

The RJDC is full of people who are demanding equal rights and protections within our own union. Your comment smacks of bigotry.

 

[lowecur]

Both West Jet and Jets Go (now defunct) were driving down fares in Canada at the time but Air Canada still got exit financing and ordered new aircraft. It's not unusual because the aircraft already had established routes to fly and international routes tend to be pretty profitable.

I would bet that Embraer would be interested in providing big discounts if Delta made a big order of E170s/E190s just like Air Canada did... Didn't Grinstein or someone senior say he was impressed with the Embraer product?

New orders usually take place upon exit. At that time the companies have secured usually billions in exit financing and have layed out a plan for the judge and the exit financiers(majority owners), where new a/c purchases can be part of the overall strategy. If the company can persuade the judge that a wider pilot scope is necessary to the new business model, then he could be willing to allow a new contract if DALPA refuses to budge off their present position. The companies arguement needs to show that the new scope is necessary to compete with existing carriers.

 

[FDJ2]

The Comair and ASA MECs were denied a seat at the table when mainline scope was being negotiated. They were denied the opportunity, by our own union, to seek job security provisions with the entity that controls all the flying-Delta Air Lines.

The RJDC does not believe that any pilot group can own its code, an airline's code, according to the RJDC, can only be controlled by the airline, not the pilot group. According to the RJDC, contract language that limits an airlines ability to outsource is illegal.

Here's some Q and A on the subject with Surplus

Quote:

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?




In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

What the DAL pilot group can attempt to negotiate or control, is which pilots will fly the aircraft that are operated by Delta Air Lines. Those airplanes are, without exception, on the Delta Air Lines operating certificate. The rule would apply equally to other airlines as well.

 

[General Lee]

The RJDC is full of people who are demanding equal rights and protections within our own union. Your comment smacks of bigotry.

Hey all lazy people out there.....Stand up and unite against General Lee....oh wait, they probably won't since they are LAZY.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Opps, That will probably bring Surplus1 out to explain it to me.

Nope, Surplus1 knows that he will always be outclassed by the wisdom of any AA pilot. To challenge the word of the gods is futile.

He waits in awe to have you tell him how things are and why.

 

[General Lee]

Nope, Surplus1 knows that he will always be outclassed by the wisdom of any AA pilot. To challenge the word of the gods is futile.

He waits in awe to have you tell him how things are and why.

Come on now, quit with the self pity. You would have jumped at the chance to go to AA, DL, or any other Major back in the late 90s. Instead, you chose to stay and hope one day that you wouldn't have to give up your vacation to be my right seat, and gain larger planes at the expense of mainline in the process.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

The RJDC does not believe that any pilot group can own its code, an airline's code, according to the RJDC, can only be controlled by the airline, not the pilot group. According to the RJDC, contract language that limits an airlines ability to outsource is illegal.

Here's some Q and A on the subject with Surplus

Quote:

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?




In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

What the DAL pilot group can attempt to negotiate or control, is which pilots will fly the aircraft that are operated by Delta Air Lines. Those airplanes are, without exception, on the Delta Air Lines operating certificate. The rule would apply equally to other airlines as well.

Thanks for the good quote. What you won't, can't, or don't acknowledge is that neither Surplus1 or the RJDC can alter truth to accomodate your desire to embrace mythology.

Your ideas are like faith - based on mythology and belief in what cannot be proven. Our beliefs are based on what is real, not fiction.

Never the twain shall meet.

 

[FDJ2]

Thanks for the good quote. What you won't, can't, or don't acknowledge is that neither Surplus1 or the RJDC can alter truth to accomodate your desire to embrace mythology.

Your ideas are like faith - based on mythology and belief in what cannot be proven. Our beliefs are based on what is real, not fiction.

Never the twain shall meet.

Interesting Surplus, that when I quote you, your response is that my ideas are "based on mythology and belief in what cannot be proven," nevermind that you are responding to your own words and not my beliefs.

Nevermind the fact that you don't dispute anything I wrote. You simply redirect and attack me instead of dealing with the fact that the RJDC and the rest of your whipsaw buddies, don't believe that any pilot group can have controlling language over its code. At the end of the day, you and the RJDC believe that no pilot group can control the outsourcing of an airlines code and that an airline, like DAL, should be allowed to outsource all of its code without restriction.

Again in your own words:

Quote:

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?




In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,


Are you a current Comair pilot? Just curious.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

The Comair and ASA MECs were denied a seat at the table when mainline scope was being negotiated.

read again what YOU just wrote. Your MECs were denied a seat when MAINLINE scope was being negotiated. Why should you be at the table when mainline scope is negotiated?

 

[michael707767]

Why should Embraer give big discounts to DL when they can sell them at a higher price to Republic, Mesa, etc?

hmm, by the same token why should Airbus have given JetBlue a great deal some years ago, when they could get a higher price from NW, UAL, USAir, etc. Bottom line is, market share counts. And every time Airbus or Embraer or Boeing locks in a new customer, it means that airline does not buy from the competition and it means that the odds of you selling more aircraft to that customer increased dramatically. It doesn't always work though. I bet Airbus never thought JetBlue would not buy a 100 seater from them. It's a funny, funny industry.

 

[michael707767]

In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

Know what, there are right. Delta does own the code. And Delta chose to sign a contract with the Delta pilots giving them rights to a large portion of that code. They did not have to do that. But they did. Deal with it.

 

[N2264J]

read again what YOU just wrote. Your MECs were denied a seat when MAINLINE scope was being negotiated. Why should you be at the table when mainline scope is negotiated?

Because at the time, there were three MECs, presumably equal in stature in the eyes of the union, on the Delta property. Your MEC left a huge hole in scope with "permitted aircraft" and we were prevented by our own union from addressing that problem. We were told ALPA's brand scope ploy was the answer but it proved to be only a "feel good" diversion.

ALPA left us wide open then refused to let us address the problem with Delta using our own bargaining capital. Now Chautauqua is operating a type rating that goes all the way to 110 seats while Delta retires the 737-200. I think it's highly unlikely that the Delta pilots will ever see that flying again and you don't have the bargaining leverage to stop it (exacerbated by not wanting to merge with us thereby getting control of almost all the flying). In other words, your scope has not only been harmful to us at Comair and ASA but to the mainline pilots as well. It hasn't saved one mainline job. You've been duped.

http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

 

[~~~^~~~]

At the end of the day, you and the RJDC believe that no pilot group can control the outsourcing of an airlines code and that an airline, like DAL, should be allowed to outsource all of its code without restriction.

Again in your own words:

Quote:

1. Can the DAL pilot group, or any pilot group own/control their code?

In a word, NO. The “code” under which your airline operates is not owned by the Delta pilots and it is not controlled by the Delta pilots. The “code” is owned by Delta Air Lines, Inc. and they alone “control” it. The same applies to other “codes” owned by other airlines.

FDJ2:

You often repeat this quote and try to tell everyone it means something other than what its says. Has your own zeal blinded you?

The RJDC's position is that the Delta pilots can not control code that they contract not to fly. If the Delta pilots want to contract for all Delta flying - GREAT The problem is that the Delta pilots only want to perform some of Delta's flying while outsourcing the flying they deem as being beneath them. The RJDC believes, as do I, that once the Delta pilots sell their scope, it no longer belongs to them.

The current race for the bottom is fostered by your approach. Because ALPA will not allow an ASA to scope any code, a alter ego free for all has been created. This free for all has negatively effected the Delta pilots because the low cost alternatives like MESA and CHQ do not even bring in the revenue to support the Comair level of pay and benefits. (Comair is seeing their flying diluted as CHQ and Mesa is getting hours - DCI is still growing)

My thought is that the Delta pilots have the first bite at the scope apple. If they toss the part of the apple they don't want at the curb, it then belongs to the ants.

By the same token, once you outsource your flying in exchange for a better contract, then it becomes somebody else's flying and they should be able to protect it from alter ego encroachment.

We can't even have a safety program like ASAP at ASA because our HR Department wants to turn it into a item to negotiate in our contract. Pay for safety - what a bunch of crap. This alone should prove the point that the regional guys have zero negotiating capital - thanks to the Delta MEC who wants to control flying that they don't want to do themselves.

If you let us have our RJ's then you have to take the remote control box of the jet and let us try to improve our end of the profession. It all boils down to representation. ALPA will not allow regional pilots to enter into contracts with the parties that have operational control of their airlines. Without scope there is nothing to bind pilots and code together.

Do you really think the profession is headed in the right direction? Do you really think Delta pilots have benefitted from all the outsourcing your pilots have ratified? Even though General Lee hates Jet Blue's pay rates, isn't there something to be said for "All Jet Blue Flying is performed by Jet Blue Pilots?" Heck they have perfectg scope and they don't even have a union.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

P.S. Is ALPA worse than no union at all? Perhaps with the SkyWest deal ASA pilots will be asked to make that decision.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Now Chautauqua is operating a type rating that goes all the way to 110 seats while Delta retires the 737-200. I think it's highly unlikely that the Delta pilots will ever see that flying again and you don't have the bargaining leverage to stop it (exacerbated by not wanting to merge with us thereby getting control of almost all the flying). In other words, your scope has not only been harmful to us at Comair and ASA but to the mainline pilots as well. It hasn't saved one mainline job. You've been duped.

This guy is exactly right. Any of the Delta pilots beginning to realize it yet?