Delta realignment

[regionaltard]

This guy is exactly right. Any of the Delta pilots beginning to realize it yet?

I know of at least one who definitely hasn't........

 

[Crash Pad]

What are you all talking about? Delta is incapable of making money in the modern invironment.

Expand international: You lose $500,000 an hour. How many trips to London or expansion to Puerta Vallarta are going to do to make that up. What % of Delta flying is international?

100 seat thing: Chataqua, Skywest, Mesa, Mainline... Who gives a sh@t... No matter who flyes it for Delta... Delta will lose money doing it.

Shrink CVG: Now you're on to something. If it doesn't make money STOP DOING IT!

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2:

You often repeat this quote and try to tell everyone it means something other than what its says. Has your own zeal blinded you?UOTE]

Earth to Fins, the quote is very easy to understand, according to the RJDC and its lawsuit, no pilot group has the right to control its code, only its aircraft. You see Fins, you support a lawsuit that is aimed at eliminating scope protections and allowing airlines to outsource more and more of their code to low bidders. You need to educate yourself.

 

[PGTB]

Whats clear is the RJDC is not out for whats right and whats wrong, they are out for themselves only.

 

[skykid]

My fear for Delta is they are going to get just enough relief (sale of regional, sale of aircraft, pension payment timeframe extended) that they are going to limp through the deadline for Ch11 under the old rules. I hope they can change drastically enough without Ch11, but it doesn't seem possible. I also don't see how a company with their complexity is going to be successful in Ch11 under next month's new rules.

 

[michael707767]

If the Delta pilots want to contract for all Delta flying - GREAT The problem is that the Delta pilots only want to perform some of Delta's flying while outsourcing the flying they deem as being beneath them. The RJDC believes, as do I, that once the Delta pilots sell their scope, it no longer belongs to them.

so you think we have the right to scope, but only if we have scope for all flying?? Good luck in your future negotiations, cause I don't think there are any pilot groups with enough leverage to have scope coverging all flying. So according to you, non of us can have any scope.

 

[michael707767]

My fear for Delta is they are going to get just enough relief (sale of regional, sale of aircraft, pension payment timeframe extended) that they are going to limp through the deadline for Ch11 under the old rules.

I totally agree with you. Better to go ahead and do it. But I fear they will avoid CH11 at all costs, even if it means we go CH7 later on.

 

[~~~^~~~]

so you think we have the right to scope, but only if we have scope for all flying?? Good luck in your future negotiations, cause I don't think there are any pilot groups with enough leverage to have scope coverging all flying. So according to you, non of us can have any scope.

Jeesh - what is so hard to understand about this?

There is flying that mainline has agreed to outsource. They don't want to do it. They have sold it. It is not theirs.

Scope what you want to fly. Allow other parties to scope what you do not want to fly.

Once you agree not to perform a certain type of flying - take your hands off.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The RJDC does not believe that any pilot group can own its code, an airline's code, according to the RJDC, can only be controlled by the airline, not the pilot group. According to the RJDC, contract language that limits an airlines ability to outsource is illegal.

FDJ2,
I'm not going to argue whether or not DALPA can "own it's code" or whether this violates ALPA's DFR. Those horses have been beat to death. One question I have for you is:

If the DAL, UAL, NWA, AAA and AMR pilot groups "own" their code, then why are there over 7000 of these pilots on furlough while other pilots are hired to fly their "code"? Were they sold out by the pilots who remain? Did they really not "own" their flying after all? If this flying was "owned" by these groups, why don't those 7000+ pilots still fly those codes?

Joe

 

[JoeMerchant]

read again what YOU just wrote. Your MECs were denied a seat when MAINLINE scope was being negotiated. Why should you be at the table when mainline scope is negotiated?

Because it affects me. It's a very simple concept Michael. ALPA represents BOTH of us, therefor when it goes to the table, it has to represent me too. While DALPA may make the decisions, legally only ALPA exists.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Know what, there are right. Delta does own the code. And Delta chose to sign a contract with the Delta pilots giving them rights to a large portion of that code. They did not have to do that. But they did. Deal with it.

There lies the rub Michael. Get out your contract and look at it. Delta signed an agreement with ALPA, not the "Delta pilots". The RJDC lawsuit is against ALPA, not the "Delta pilots". See the difference?

 

[michael707767]

There lies the rub Michael. Get out your contract and look at it. Delta signed an agreement with ALPA, not the "Delta pilots". The RJDC lawsuit is against ALPA, not the "Delta pilots". See the difference?

Actually it says "between the airline pilots in the service of Delta Inc, as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association."

Represented by does not mean controlled by. ALPA works for us, not the other way around.

 

[michael707767]

Because it affects me. It's a very simple concept Michael. ALPA represents BOTH of us, therefor when it goes to the table, it has to represent me too. While DALPA may make the decisions, legally only ALPA exists.

Thats not true. ALPA represents us, just like a lawyer. My lawyer does not tell me what do to or what to negotiate. He works for me. I tell him what I want and what to negotiate for. Same for ALPA.

If being represented by ALPA limits what I can do and or negotiate for, then what possible reason would I, or you, have for being in ALPA? Oh, and did you invite the Delta pilots or the ASA pilots to the table when you were negotiating your last contract? Didn't think so.

PS. I know you disagree. Hence the lawsuit. My bet is that I will be proven right. And if not, I will respect the decision of the court. Then I will demand my pilot group leave ALPA. I won't let my pilot group be harmed by membership in a national union. If you think ALPA is not right for you, why have you stayed?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Actually it says "between the airline pilots in the service of Delta Inc, as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association."

Represented by does not mean controlled by. ALPA works for us, not the other way around.

Michael,
We are both supposed to be REPRESENTED by ALPA. This is a DFR lawsuit against ALPA. Nothing more, nothing less. DFR is Duty of Fair REPRESENTATION. This lawsuit will decide whether or not ALPA is representing us fairly.

ALPA works for us also Michael. So when ALPA signs an agreement with our parent corporation, that affects us negatively, without our elected representatives present, we have a problem.

Joe

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thats not true. ALPA represents us, just like a lawyer. My lawyer does not tell me what do to or what to negotiate. He works for me. I tell him what I want and what to negotiate for. Same for ALPA.

Actually I agree somewhat. The analogy I like to use is having the husband and wife use the same lawyer in a divorce. Definite conflict of interest.

If being represented by ALPA limits what I can do and or negotiate for, then what possible reason would I, or you, have for being in ALPA? Oh, and did you invite the Delta pilots or the ASA pilots to the table when you were negotiating your last contract? Didn't think so.

I guess you assumed I was a CMR pilot? I am an ASA pilot. However, to address your point, I do think there should have been ASA,CMR, and Delta pilots at the table negotiating a common contract with Delta management. Obviously, that is now water under the bridge. There is no going back. You're wrong in thinking that I don't think this should have been done with my fellow CMR and DAL pilots. We could have been a force to reckon with back in 2000. Now all three groups have been neutered. You will fall further than we will however.

PS. I know you disagree. Hence the lawsuit. My bet is that I will be proven right. And if not, I will respect the decision of the court. Then I will demand my pilot group leave ALPA. I won't let my pilot group be harmed by membership in a national union. If you think ALPA is not right for you, why have you stayed?

Because I actually believe in the concept of a truly NATIONAL UNION. ALPA hasn't lived up to that expectation however and thus the lawsuit. We would all be better off if we had a truly NATIONAL UNION.

Joe

 

[michael707767]

Actually I agree somewhat. The analogy I like to use is having the husband and wife use the same lawyer in a divorce. Definite conflict of interest.

I guess you assumed I was a CMR pilot?

Because I actually believe in the concept of a truly NATIONAL UNION. ALPA hasn't lived up to that expectation however and thus the lawsuit. We would all be better off if we had a truly NATIONAL UNION.

If it was legal and both parties knew about it before signing up to use that lawyer, I don' t you can complain afterward.

Sorry, I did assume you were a CMR pilot. My bad.

And actually I agree with you. But only IF ALPA were a truly national union, with a national contract and a national list. But ALPA is not and will never be. That horse left the gate a long, long time ago. Since we are not a truly national union, I believe each MEC is its own entity for the purposes of negotiating, with ALPA national only providing support. I know my negotiators were all Delta pilots, not lawyers from national.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If it was legal and both parties knew about it before signing up to use that lawyer, I don' t you can complain afterward.

The problem, is I don't think ALPA acted "legally" in terms of DFR. Hence why I am complaining and why it will be decided in court.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

It means commuting to and from work is going to be an even bigger b!tch than it has been. I really do appreciate all the rides Comair has given me over the summer and you are always welcome on my flights as far as I am concerned, but I guess it's time to get a place in Cincy for now.

 

[Bob Runday]

Yeah, ditto for me. You guys are always welcome to jumpseat on my C-172, anytime! (As long as it's okay with the Captain of course).