Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[General Lee]

To the Bat Poles!!!!!

Mr Minibus,

I got about $70,000 for my pension, part of which filled up my 401K allottment for this year, and the rest was taxed. My pension was taxed. Most guys under 10 years got about $30,000, which partially filled up the 401K allottment. Yeah, it sure was worth it......

And, you can rant all you want about the SLI, but in the end you won't get what you want. You won't. And quit talking so much about "poles." I don't go that way. Maybe you do, not that there is anything wrong with that....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Nose,

I appologize to you and all Dal brothers except puff. I lost my cool but I have had it with guys like him and the general that think we should just bow down. You seem like a good guy as are most Dal/Nwa pilots. We are being played by mgmt. They know they would never get concessions out of any of us again as a unified group. So the plan B or is it maybe plan A is cause a rift to split us before we get our ******************** together by making unrealistic promises to one group and causing the other to go on the defensive thus the fighting and mudslinging we have here. And in the end ********************ty pay/work rules for years to come. Lets hope our mecs/merger/neg. comms can see thru what the money men are trying to do.

Thanks Bevis. Boy, that sure was funny pretending that you wanted info on Delta. I was sure happy to get that for you. What an idiot.

Guess what? You guys have had your expectations raised by a Republic guy with an agenda. He was screwed by the Redbooks, and he has fed you lines that you now agree with---which are UNREALISTIC. Get that through your frozen minds. (still snowing up there, eh? Bummer) You won't get what you want. You have a pension that the rest of us will not have. You have planes that are going to go away first, before our MD88s. You have management that wants to bail on you. You have never negotiated by yourselves without an arbitrator on "line #1." You showed up unprepared to negotiate, and with too many people watching over each other---how many observers again????? Ridiculous.

You frozen hosers need a reality slap. Wake up and come to the table, and splash some reality on yourselves. Oil is way high, your leader wants his money, and peak leverage is GONE for you. Take a hit for the team and let's all go to a Nascar event and yell "damn Chevy's!!!"


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Clacker]

Good post, bro.

Ignore the trolls.

We'll work this out.

+1


Using flightinfo for accurate info is like trying to find out what's happening in the world from Weekly World News.

Except it's not nearly as entertaining...

http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/

 

[FDJ2]

That's a convenient excuse when arbitration clearly would not side with your position.

You have no idea what an arbitrator will decide.

The AAA pilots got their #1 choice to arbitrate their SLI. They were confident that Nicolau would see it their way. It didn't quite work out that way for them now did it.

Arbitration is an abdication of leadership and only a fool would embrace it over negotiations.

 

[PCL_128]

You know... you East/West guys just need to sit down and figure this out.....



oh sorry... thought this was a AAA/AWA thread...

Sad, ain't it?

 

[FDJ2]

Agree 100%! Arbitration is for losers. I've worked for 20 years with the Red/Green Show: Idiots hating Morons (and vice versa). Because of that I've always been a strong advocate of a negotiated SLI....

On this among many other issues we agree Occam. Let's hope for a better future for all.

No one here wants a Red book, Green book or any other colored book going forward. We want a unified group.

However, if we can't play well together in the sand box then we are forced to look out for our own interests and get the best deal we can get. Just like you guys tried in NYC.

We can work together or we can play hardball with the best of them. It's best to work together, of course that requires sending committees willing to work towards a negotiated agreement, not abdicating their responsibilities to a third party.

Here's to better days. It's late and I have an important meeting in the am.

 

[Schwanker]

.... call me a scab or a scumbag, hack your watch, and figure out when you wake up how long you were out....

Oooohhhhh, a tough guy! They're always fun on an anonymous forum! PuffDriver, you're a mud-pipe!

Schwanker

 

[waveflyer]

yeah it's sad

We don't need to be fighting each other- we need a national seniority list. Have one big mother of all negotiations and enjoy the results. How many mergers need to get f&&ked up before we get out of our own way?

 

[PCL_128]

It amazes me that you can still be pushing this NSL nonsense when these two groups can't even agree on an integration.

 

[waveflyer]

******************** you pcl-
You're a simpleton if you can't see that integrating the lists nationally is fundamentally different than doing it between two companies of widely different seniorities.

The benefits of a NSL far outweigh the issues.

But as long as you know that i'm much smarter than you and thus- don't care what you think, PCL- that's all i really care about. (need proof i'm smarter? I didn't get my time at Gulfstream.)

 

[PCL_128]

Not getting into this argument again. If you still haven't figured out why this won't work, then you never will.

 

[waveflyer]

My only point is that you'll fight a war to integrate AAA/AWA. Another to integrate DAL/NWA- We've already fought wars in this area before and we'll never be done as the airline industry gets more and more dynamic- You'll fight these wars- pilot vs pilot- management winning all along- and in the end all it does is end the debate until seniority gets screwed again through scope or mergers or liquidations. But realize w/ your precious PATTERN BARGAINING that in today's world- our opportunities to raise the bar- are smaller and smaller- and when we miss those opportunities b/c we're fighting each other over seniority- the ENTIRE INDUSTRY LOSES.

It amazes me that every pilot doesn't realize that the time for a national seniority list has arrived. We have leverage in that area b/c mergers and money are being held up b/c our seniority system is in every common sense way screwed all to hell. Noone is going to stop us from correcting this fracked up system.

DOH from the time you passed Military flight school or joined a 121/union carrier- subtract any months/years you weren't flying- and then bid whatever you company, base, and a/c you can hold. Are there problems? yes. Bigger than our own seniority being used against us by management everywhere? Not even close.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Thanks. Temporarily lost my cool Have lots of Dal friends and most know about as much as we do, which is not much. None, I repeat none act like some of the posters here. Anywho, are you going to be in Phx in May for the seminar? If so, I will buy you a beer at the complimentary social :beer:

Good post, bro.

Ignore the trolls.

We'll work this out.

 

[JAM-BRO]

On this among many other issues we agree Occam. Let's hope for a better future for all.

No one here wants a Red book, Green book or any other colored book going forward. We want a unified group.

However, if we can't play well together in the sand box then we are forced to look out for our own interests and get the best deal we can get. Just like you guys tried in NYC. Are you implying that since we(NWA) did not reach an agreement on the SLI, giving up part of YOUR scope to screw us, is OK? PATHETIC!!!!

We can work together or we can play hardball with the best of them. It's best to work together, of course that requires sending committees willing to work towards a negotiated agreement, not abdicating their responsibilities to a third party.

Here's to better days. It's late and I have an important meeting in the am.

What happened to the "WE LIKE OUR STAND-ALONE. WE CAN MAKE IT ON OUR OWN" rant all you DAL guys believe in. All you guys say here, in this order, is how stupid we(NWA) are for not taking the first offer in the first place. Then you say that NWA sucks and that all we bring to table are old planes, cold bases and senior pilots that are salivating to slide into your seats. That you are glad to not have to merge with such a dysfunctional airline. That a merge with NWA is the worst thing that could happen to the DAL pilots. "That was then, this is now, move on." And last, a merger will be good for all. Which one is it?

But now it seems that DAL ALPA is going to give up scope and hand the NWA pilots on a silver platter to the management sharks for some trinkets. To put it lightly, if this is the way it goes down, DAL ALPA will be sinking to the lowest possible form of greed and selfishness.

DON"T YOU GUYS SEE THIS AS WRONG!!!

 

[PuffDriver]

Thanks. Temporarily lost my cool Have lots of Dal friends and most know about as much as we do, which is not much. None, I repeat none act like some of the posters here. Anywho, are you going to be in Phx in May for the seminar? If so, I will buy you a beer at the complimentary social :beer:

What are you losing your cool about? How about you Occam? What seems to be the problem. Let's try a different approach, clear the board.

1) Can we agree that the merger is going to happen? With or without us, can we agree on that? I would agree that whomever posted our chair can stop any merger was correct to a point until the powers that be are going to lose too much money.

2) If you answered yes to #1, can we agree that going to arbitration is a huge unknown for everybody? As such it is not a good idea for either group. I cite 2 things, the last arbitration went very bad for date of hire, I cite that I do not know the last time an arbitration went date of hire. If yes, continue

3) Can we agree that there is a lot of mistrust, perhaps trust-but-verify, on the part of the NWA pilots toward their leadership? As such, that in itself slows the process down, and may all but sabotage it completely. If yes, continue.



You guys need to get over this "bow down to Delta pilots", "we won't succumb no matter what", "we will make everyone miserable" stuff. You can believe what you want of course, but our MEC is deciding today whether or not to alter our contract in order to allow this merger with separate operations. As incentive, there is going to be an increased compensation package. While you have been running around throwing barbs that this is an anonymous board, and nobody could possibly be right about any of the information posted, we have been. It's coming. You can now decide how you are going to handle it. Before you start seeing red, let me add a few other things: I have already read that you will undercut our rates, do you not think that our MEC--who has been waaayyy ahead in this process--wouldn't think of that and institute a protective process? Do you think that it is possible that the remaining DC-9s might just start going away, and Compass may be reduced with the assets brought over to another DCI carrier? Is it possible that the pressure to integrate the lists might already be figured out and starting to be applied? With regard to 100 seat scope, I wouldn't bet for a second that our team would allow it, unless it includes the provision to allow Comair to be a flow-up/flow down type of Compass operation. That would indeed solve our Comair issue. I think even that is a long shot, though, and would garner a "no"vote from me unless they were tacked to the bottom of the list.

I appreciate that you guys consider yourselves such "true unionists". Sometimes I wish our group was a bit more militant. Nonetheless, we are where we are. Our chair and MEC already have a great relationship with RA. I have been here a long time, and I have been through more than a couple CEOs. This CEO and board have been the single most impressive in my tenure. They have finally showed some vision instead of reacting to what's thrown at them. The next round is already underway, and although the french do not overly impress me, our futures will be closely tied to them as open skies starts rearing its ugly head again. Our MEC has already started being very proactive with our alliance MECs, and already have some "treaties" in place. Couple that with the words "depression" and "hyperinflation" used in the same sentence waaayyy too much for my taste and this little project we have going makes even more sense. Some majors are going away, I would rather see us eat this figurative turd, than watch some unemployed pilot group eat them for real.

I have no doubt that both airlines could "struggle" through this time period, although I think that we still haven't seen the worst of it. There will be more airlines going away permanently, and I would rather it be a non-ALPA carrier. This agreement virtually assures that it will not be a NWA or Delta pilot.

Additionally, while your side is just sure that furloughs will be a part of this, I am not so sure, unless we continue down the road of separate lists. We are staffed to the bone, and I have heard that you are the same. We need another 1000 pilots just to staff the 777s and 737-700s we have coming. We are parking some 2 man a/c and replacing them with double crewed 2 man aircraft. You have some 787s coming, but when?

Let me be clear, I want this merger for the long term survival and powerhouse of a company it will be. In particular, it will create some semblance of stability. I also want this merger to go with 1 seniority list. I want a fair integration. In order to do that, NWA are going to have to take a seniority hit, so will the Delta guys. I have seen the numbers, and both sets of guys will benefit in career earnings more than they will without the merger. If the NWA pilots are not willing to realize the very significant gains they would realize, than that is your choice. It is then very likely that your pilot group will shrink in size, and you will find Delta pilots checked out on 787s and airbuses. Planned retirements, orders, what could have been, what should have been mean NOTHING. We are where we are. I hope that demonstrates a kindler, gentler Puff, and I hope that your MEC explains this to you so that you can make a clear, informed choice to steer your MEC.

I will bow out of the discussion and let you take your parting shots. Make 'em good ones.