Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[FmrFreightDog]

"It seems like many at DAL (or at least here on FI) are like the Star Belly Sneetches, but you think that Sylvester McMonkey McBean is your friend. Remember he packs up and leaves after he takes ALL of the Sneetches money, stars or not. "----Tref


What language is this Tref guy speaking? Is he on dope?


Bye Bye--General Lee

He's speaking Dr. Seuss. If you really did just have a kid, you'll be speaking fluent nonsense before you know it. Tref...Probably not on dope. Dr. Seuss??? Most likely.

Ok, sorry, back to our paranoia and pilot bashing. A quick read of "The Sneetches" might do you some good.. might remind you who you're really cutting deals with up there on Virginia Ave.

 

[IXLR8]

you'll be speaking fluent nonsense before you know it.

I think we're past that...

 

[PuffDriver]

Actually NWA pilots have a contract that has a Scope section as well. It says that any acquisition/merger requires a merged seniority list and that ALPA merger policy will be used if the other airline is ALPA as well. ALPA merger policy has a clearly defined 150 day timetable for arbitration if a negotiated list is not possible, so we may see arbitration eventually anyway.

You are right. What do you think that the NWA seniority list will look like by then?

BTW, I appreciate the words about RA, and I fully agree. So far, he has come through on everything he has said. More than all of his predecessors in my tenure-4. The MEC leadership does seem to have a good relationship with him, though. Trust but verify.

 

[ExAF]

Dude, I just put GL on my ignore list and I highly recommend it.

Sure cuts down on the time it takes to get through these threads doesn't it!

 

[nwaredtail]

You are right. What do you think that the NWA seniority list will look like by then?

Save us, please. But while you're saving us please forget that NWA has more cash, less debt, better profits (% and actual amount) yet is 1/3 smaller than you. Also, glance over our fortress hubs, 787 options (RA is very happy about those I am told), Asia network, KLM history, etc.

We will be fine, even with those old, paid for, DC-9's. If I were junior at DAL, I would be a bit nervous......

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I don't think the worry is about what mgmt wants to do. They would love to have a Texas Air type operation. Dal=Cal and Nwa=Eal. That way when the Nwa employees provide the expected reaction, the absolute meltdown of the airline they break off the pieces they want and trash the rest. Easy way around our section 1. Now the part which is a little more disturbing is our Dalpa brothers siding with mgmt in their little scenario to get a leg up on us. Just shows how little brotherhood that there really is and I believe that the MAJORITY of pilot at Dal know this is underhanded they will stay silent. They are being used by the money men, but their greed and feeling of power is too intoxicating. I would like to see natl. come out against this, however Prator is in the posistion he is in do to the above cal/eal deal.

You are right. What do you think that the NWA seniority list will look like by then?

Save us, please. But while you're saving us please forget that NWA has more cash, less debt, better profits (% and actual amount) yet is 1/3 smaller than you. Also, glance over our fortress hubs, 787 options (RA is very happy about those I am told), Asia network, KLM history, etc.

We will be fine, even with those old, paid for, DC-9's. If I were junior at DAL, I would be a bit nervous......

 

[Noserider76]

It may be that any chance for the pilots to get anything ahead of this merger was going out the door quickly. DALPA realized there was no chance for an SLI agreement and salvaged a little bit for it's group. With all the work DALPA put in to try and get pilot benefit from the merger there was probably no way they were going to let it slip away. I don't think there is any way they put provisions in there to screw the NWA pilots.

If this is the case, then it looks like DL gets some money and NWA gets to keep the advancements from their retirements. Hopefully a combined list will be agreed on relatively quickly and the NWA guys get the pay as well. I would definitely have prefered that we go through this as a unified group with equal benefits but it sounds like there were hard lines drawn on both sides and this was the only way to get anything up front.

It's too bad the two MECs couldn't have built the trust required to work together during the last couple years when the merger signs began to become obvious. I hope it works out well for both sides when all is said and done.

 

[Fly4hire]

Now the part which is a little more disturbing is our Dalpa brothers siding with mgmt in their little scenario to get a leg up on us. Just shows how little brotherhood that there really is and I believe that the MAJORITY of pilot at Dal know this is underhanded they will stay silent. They are being used by the money men, but their greed and feeling of power is too intoxicating.

Cobra,

Part of the problem is they see themselves as a higher aviation life form than us. Sort of how we slaughter cows without a second thought. We are nothing but meat for their consumption

I hope the bed they crawled into with DAL Mgmt is real cozy, because that's the only "friend" they have left. Blatant anti-union actions like these will be hard, if not impossible, to recover from in the future.

 

[IronCityBlue]

I don't think the worry is about what mgmt wants to do. They would love to have a Texas Air type operation. Dal=Cal and Nwa=Eal. That way when the Nwa employees provide the expected reaction, the absolute meltdown of the airline they break off the pieces they want and trash the rest. Easy way around our section 1. Now the part which is a little more disturbing is our Dalpa brothers siding with mgmt in their little scenario to get a leg up on us. Just shows how little brotherhood that there really is and I believe that the MAJORITY of pilot at Dal know this is underhanded they will stay silent. They are being used by the money men, but their greed and feeling of power is too intoxicating. I would like to see natl. come out against this, however Prator is in the posistion he is in do to the above cal/eal deal.



That's a very NWA pilot biased POV, and you may be right about your interpretation. If so, that would be wrong and natl should stop it. However, the Delta pilot biased version has the NWA MEC trying to pad the combined list with Delta pilots to be furloughed primarily because of the parking of DC-9's and 747-200's. If true, that is equally as "unbrotherly" as the theory you are proposing. If in fact that version is true, the Delta pilots as well as natl would have no other choice but to do what it took to insure that any furloughs from either pilot group were represenative of the percentages of each respective fleet being parked that were responsibile for the furloughs in the first place.

That's 100% fair to all concerned, as there is no moral justification for stacking parts of someone else's seniority list below you to just to absorb furloughs from your side of the fence. Furthermore, if its true that the NWA was demanding super seniority because of retirements (that aren't happening in full force), the mighty 747 (which pays less than 2 other aircraft at Delta), phanton 787's (which pay 2 bucks an hour more than NWA 757 rates, and considerably less than Delta 757 rates), and full credit for 9's and -200's that are obviously on the chopping block to a large degree because of the fuel crisis we're in the middle of.

That version then add that the NWA MEC was using the threat of inevitable arbitration to "go for it" along those lines. While in theory its great for everyone to passionately argue their POV in an arbitration, its likewise not very palatable to be in arbitration arguing for a fair outcome when the other side is trying to rape you, with the safety of knowing a fair outcome is the worst they can likely expect.

Add to that the fact that about 2 billion dollars from management was wasted away by this stalemate, and add to that the fact that most of that money would have gone to the NWA pilots in the form of bigger raises and better work rules, as well as the fact that the NWA PWA also requires an eventual combining of operations anyway, and it doesn't seem so unreasonable for the Delta pilots to give up some parts of their contract (that were going to go away post merger anyway) to facilitate a merger that's going to happen anyway, and try to at least get a portion of the original incentive they were offered. If that's how it happenes, you would likely get much of that too, when your pay and work rules were brought up to theirs anyway.

So as you can see, the two different versions differ radically. Everyone thinks their version is right, but both can't be. All I'm saying is that it would be disgusting if Delta pilots tried to take your planes and growth in a backroom deal with management, but it would be equally disgusting if NWA tried to stack the list with Delta furloughs because of parked NWA planes. Which version is it? If we ever truly know, it may not be for a while.

 

[FDJ2]

Now the part which is a little more disturbing is our Dalpa brothers siding with mgmt in their little scenario to get a leg up on us.

Your DALPA brothers aren't siding with management. Your DALPA brothers are negotiating with their management. Since when is negotiations considered siding? You're free to negotiate with your management as well.



Just shows how little brotherhood that there really is and I believe that the MAJORITY of pilot at Dal know this is underhanded they will stay silent.

Lectures about brotherhood from a NWA pilot? How much brotherhood do you have between your multi colored book factions?

The Delta pilots wanted and still want a negotiated SLI that is mutually acceptable and creates one pilot group.

They are being used by the money men, but their greed and feeling of power is too intoxicating. I would like to see natl. come out against this, however Prator is in the posistion he is in do to the above cal/eal deal.

Come out against what? Please tell us the details.

 

[FDJ2]

Cobra,

Part of the problem is they see themselves as a higher aviation life form than us.

Actually, I believe you've got it backwards. The NWA pilots tend to have a bloated sense of themselves. Look at how you treated the Republic pilots.

I'm sorry, but Delta pilots wont be made second class citizens in their own airline.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Read this...

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...44B-5C81-4D9D-8472-DBF592DD32E0}&siteid=yhoof

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=111372

cliff
YIP

 

[Tref]

Sure cuts down on the time it takes to get through these threads doesn't it!

Yeah, you only need to read his posts once 'cause it's just the same thing over and over again.

 

[Tref]

You are right. What do you think that the NWA seniority list will look like by then?

Actually the policy addresses that as well. Have you read it?

 

[PuffDriver]

Actually the policy addresses that as well. Have you read it?

You mean your minute language that forces the parking of rjs if you park DC-9s? You're serious? You can't see the way around that, and you don't think that the Delta MEC, who BTW has been on the inside of this deal from day 1, has gotten a peak at the plan in order to set up their moves?

Keep calling us greedy and big headed, while your MEC got the majority of the money offered, a more than fair list integration, and better career earnings from it. You have put yourself in this position, and you will now see the result of it. You have left the Delta leadership no choice but to defend itself, and we will. My prediction is that your MEC will eventually succumb to a Delta-style list. If they do not, the -9s will be parked, the 787 orders cancelled, the 74-200s parked, furloughs announced, rjs parked and "sold" to some feeder who will fly them under Delta colors, and then a PID established and arbitration set. After all, it's what you wanted.

This in NO way makes Delta pilots arrogant--its what you wanted, scabby--it's what you wanted, or slimy--it's what you wanted. We are merely playing the cards you "misdealt" from your stacked deck.

Deal with it.

Or were you talking about merger policy? That will be the next lecture.

 

[nwaredtail]

You mean your minute language that forces the parking of rjs if you park DC-9s? You're serious?

This from the folks that lead the pack in giving away scope and have the largest RJ fleet in the world. Congrats on that!

Keep calling us greedy and big headed, while your MEC got the majority of the money offered, Approx. how much was that, numbers please.

a more than fair list integration,

What exactly was the SLI, a list will do.

and better career earnings from it. Wow, A new Carnac is born, telling everyone what their career will be. Pretty bold in today's environment

Let's see how well the Synergies last if DAL tries to screw the NWA pilots. RA is smarter than that, you, not so much.

 

[PuffDriver]

You mean your minute language that forces the parking of rjs if you park DC-9s? You're serious?

This from the folks that lead the pack in giving away scope and have the largest RJ fleet in the world. Congrats on that!

Keep calling us greedy and big headed, while your MEC got the majority of the money offered, Approx. how much was that, numbers please.

a more than fair list integration,

What exactly was the SLI, a list will do.

and better career earnings from it. Wow, A new Carnac is born, telling everyone what their career will be. Pretty bold in today's environment

Let's see how well the Synergies last if DAL tries to screw the NWA pilots. RA is smarter than that, you, not so much.

Yeah, but here's the thing, ours is going down and your up. LIke it or not, my post is factual. Yours, blather. The NWA 15 minutes are up, and reality is about to set in. Here is the NWA way:

"We already got most of the money from the deal, now we want the seniority as well. What? You greedy, Delta bastards want a fair integration? We'll see about that. <Sneak off to FI to make a few posts about Delta pilots being greedy bastards, double-breasted greedy bastards, double brested sky god greedy bastards>. We want arbitration, and expedite it!!!! What? No arbitration. <sneak out of room do give each other the what-do-we-do-if-we -don't-arbitrate look> Well, we need to negotiate? What, you say your list is already a compromise? Well, that's not negotiation. <sneak off to FI to try the public smear campaign again> Well, we've got a better balance sheet, and we can outlast you, and we can do it at 2/3 the size, and we struck once, and we have as much cash as you. That's our position. Go pound sand? Whaaattt? <sneak off to the press to publicly call Delta pilots double breasted sneaky greedy bastards since traveling public doesn't read FI> What? Talks are off? Steenland did whaaattt? The Delta MEC did whaaaattt? <sneak back on to FI to add the words scabby and scabbs to the descriptors of the Delta pilots> Well, we have less debt, a better balance sheet, DC 9s that are going to parked but are paid for, scope, you guys allow too many rjs, we have retirements you know,.

blather, blather, blather.

The Delta MEC has been light years ahead the whole time, and they will continue to be. You will be outmaneuvered in your own tactics, which will make us scabs in your eyes. Hypocrisy at its finest

 

[~~~^~~~]

Puff:

I'm hoping they don't accept what the D-MEC negotiators offered.

Can the DAL-MEC withdraw that offer pending arbitration and see where things shake out? The NWA pilots have such great confidence in their fleet, retirements, growth... let us allow some time to see how that works out. Why rush things now? Why continue negotiations when the NWA pilots just want fodder for their mother of all arbitrations?

We all say Delta's gift of an offer is not prejudicial, but surely an arbitrator will be aware of the offer. The NWA MEC "backed up," could/should the D-MEC respond in kind?

At the very least "we" need to see the plan for the NWA subsidiary before proceeding further.

 

[nwaredtail]

"We already got most of the money from the deal, now we want the seniority as well. What? You greedy, Delta bastards want a fair integration? We'll see about that. <Sneak off to FI to make a few posts about Delta pilots being greedy bastards, double-breasted greedy bastards, double brested sky god greedy bastards>. We want arbitration, and expedite it!!!! What? No arbitration. <sneak out of room do give each other the what-do-we-do-if-we -don't-arbitrate look> Well, we need to negotiate? What, you say your list is already a compromise? Well, that's not negotiation. <sneak off to FI to try the public smear campaign again> Well, we've got a better balance sheet, and we can outlast you, and we can do it at 2/3 the size, and we struck once, and we have as much cash as you. That's our position. Go pound sand? Whaaattt? <sneak off to the press to publicly call Delta pilots double breasted sneaky greedy bastards since traveling public doesn't read FI> What? Talks are off? Steenland did whaaattt? The Delta MEC did whaaaattt? <sneak back on to FI to add the words scabby and scabbs to the descriptors of the Delta pilots> Well, we have less debt, a better balance sheet, DC 9s that are going to parked but are paid for, scope, you guys allow too many rjs, we have retirements you know,.


So, it seems my posts are factual, ie financial numbers, etc. and your posts are a playscript of what the shortman said happened in NY. When you give some facts that can be actually backed up, let's us know.

Until then, you sound like a SCAB, and as my DAL buddies told me, you're in the minority of what most DAL guys think. Always that 1%.

Really, try to put some actual facts in your posts that you can prove with data or transcripts.