Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[nwaredtail]

That's rich.

Why not take Delta's offer and screw the Delta pilots? Then laugh at us as our relative seniority gets us the right seat of a DC9 in Detroit?

If your low on the seniority list at either carrier, you're screwed in a merger either way.

 

[FBN0223]

If your low on the seniority list at either carrier, you're screwed in a merger either way.

Hopefully it's not so long Saipan and hello Raleigh-Durham. Really liking life on the B757 and as much as the Delta guys don't want to fly our DC-9s, many of us aren't thrilled about the prospect of flying Delta'a DC-9-80s.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Was it the ratioed list plus 20% offer, in favor of the DAL pilots.

Now that was your offer; that you took back. (I would type "reneged," but that term confuses rednecks) Keep 'em offers straight would you? You'll never cut it selling used cars.

Was it the offer to have 80% of the wide body seats in 5 years be all DAL pilots?

Isn't that about the ratio now? Why wait 5 years?

How about the offer to give the 100 seat flying to the regionals?

Replacing the DC9's with RJ's was Steenland's plan. Ever heard of Compass, or Pinnacle? You say fleet floor - management says Delta's growth has that covered. But I am with you on that concern.

The problem is that the DC9's are going away and neither side has scope that keeps that flying at mainline.

 

[DTW320]

Replacing the DC9's with RJ's was Steenland's plan. Ever heard of Compass, or Pinnacle? You say fleet floor - management says Delta's growth has that covered.

Bovine Excrement Fins. Steenland could "plan" whatever he wants.....our Scope clause says no. Your Scope clause is horrible, yet DALPA has apparently found a way to make it even worse in exchange for some trinkets.

 

[PuffDriver]

Really. Who told you this is what we wanted. Because it is not even close to what we discussed with your merger committee and the "little" one

The information is out there. The agreement was negotiated which benefitted NWA greatly. There is NO disputing that. So the only way you can be only partially right is if it is NOT true that you wanted credit for your retirees which are not here yet, you WANTED to discount our retirees in 10 years, you did NOT want to give us credit for 777s, you WANTED credit for 787s, you did NOT want discounted for -9s going away, you did NOT want closer to DOH in the list. We're waiting with baited breath. Which are wrong and which are right. Better yet, give us the proposal since you know it.

If scumbag pilots allow 100 seat flying to be done by other than NWA or Delta mainline pilots. Think SCABS!

You show up anywhere calling me a scumbag or a scab, you'd better duck, and quick. Besides, where has the information been posted that DAL will outsource 100 seat flying? Who says that Delta pilots will not fly them, or another group will be added to the mix at the bottom of our list to do that flying? To reiterate, the Delta pilots are not the ones being hardnosed in this integration. They don't want an arbitrator to determine integration, nor should anyone.


Yup, 2 proposals from DALALPA in 12 weeks. I know you all are from down south and all, but, if you could work a little faster, we maybe could have gotten the deal done.


Yeah, right. The Delta MEC gave up the majority of the raises in order to bring the NWA pilots up to parity on just about every level, proposed a fair integration that increased every NWA pilots career earnings, and it is OUR fault? PLease. Go sell it on your message boards.


Yup, sold out by scab, scumbags, pilots like yourself. Puff driver huh? "No fighters available", isn't that the line from the 130 guys.


As I said, come up to a picket line and call me a scab or a scumbag, hack your watch, and figure out when you wake up how long you were out. Your lack of the definition of a scab is second only to your lack of knowledge of Delta, and where the screenname puffdriver came from. Hint: I was never in the military, I was out in the work force paying your salary to learn to fly.

How about this, 4500 pissed of NWA pilots let NWA and DAL go under. It's happened before.


See my line right above this. Who says that will not be part of the plan. You had your chance. Your CEO is NOT on your side. The Delta pilots were ready to welcome you with open arms. Instead, we were labeled as redneck idiots, holding no cards, and wanting too much seniority by a bunch of unprepared idiots, who were flailing for any kind of volunteers for committees, who gave an acceptable proposal to the Delta pilots, then reneged on it as they found out they botched it.

Deal with it, son. Your 15 minutes are about up, and the deal is going forward with or without you.

But hopefully you will be happy with your ability to call me puffy. It's really all you have got in the arsenal.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If your low on the seniority list at either carrier, you're screwed in a merger either way.

Thanks for the information, I was unclear on that point.

Meanwhile DTW320 has upped the ante' in the web board monkey poo fight to include Bovine Effluvia.

Hopefully I can bid out to Hawaii after we run Mesa out of business, buy Hawaiian, and forget NWA.

 

[DTW320]

Thanks for the information, I was unclear on that point.

Meanwhile DTW320 has upped the ante' in the web board monkey poo fight to include Bovine Effluvia.

Hopefully I can bid out to Hawaii after we run Mesa out of business, buy Hawaiian, and forget NWA.

It was excrement to be precise....but maybe that means the same thing, I dunno..

As for the "ante", I think that Puffdaddy threatening physical assault on NWA pilots is gonna kinda carry the whole "ante" thing for a while here.

 

[~~~^~~~]

As I said, come up to a picket line and call me a scab or a scumbag, hack your watch, and figure out when you wake up how long you were out.

Probably true. The Squirrels in his back yard look like this guy.

http://www.bored.com/photos/squirrelwithbignuts_2.html

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I nominate PuffDriver's post as best post of the day.

 

[General Lee]

Hopefully it's not so long Saipan and hello Raleigh-Durham. Really liking life on the B757 and as much as the Delta guys don't want to fly our DC-9s, many of us aren't thrilled about the prospect of flying Delta'a DC-9-80s.

The MD88s are like the Space Shuttle compared to the diesel 9s. Most of those -9 pilots would still ask for headings though, even though the IOE guy would remind him "hey now, remember, we have an FMS or "magic box" that can do it all for you...." And there is still a rumor out there that states we will get more MD90s to replace some of the DC9s too----which was a pretty good rumor since all of the CVG based pilots were trained on the -90 in the meantime. They would not have done that without a good reason.

I don't think you will be bumped off of your 757---not many want to move North. I think we have more to worry about since there are soooo many NWA commuters who live South of MSP/DTW.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

The information is out there. The agreement was negotiated which benefitted NWA greatly. There is NO disputing that.

So, it must be that our merger committee and MEC are just a bunch of idiots for walking away from a deal that benefitted NWA greatly. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[~~~^~~~]

NWA:

Yes, I think that is an accurate charaterization. They were afraid of doing something that appeared so easy when there might be more on the table. They were afraid to lead and afraid to be seen giving ground in their own internal battles.

As others have written (including your pilots) better to get a bad arbitrated decision that you are not held responsible for than risk being responsible for your own leadership.

 

[Schwanker]

I also understand why my dog sometimes craps in the living room.

Can I borrow your living room? My dog needs to take a walk!

Schwanker

 

[PuffDriver]

The information is out there. The agreement was negotiated which benefitted NWA greatly. There is NO disputing that.

So, it must be that our merger committee and MEC are just a bunch of idiots for walking away from a deal that benefitted NWA greatly. Thanks for clearing that up.

Now you are starting to get it. That is EXACTLY what happened. Except that it was a bunch more people in there WATCHING your merger committee due to lack of trust. All in all, probably about 40-50 people at NWA know the details.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

This is true.
Fin do not take my prediction...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You know... you East/West guys just need to sit down and figure this out.....



oh sorry... thought this was a AAA/AWA thread...

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You so funny

 

[nonstop]

You know... you East/West guys just need to sit down and figure this out.....



oh sorry... thought this was a AAA/AWA thread...

Oh no they're much more civil, they at least let an unbiased 3rd party decide their fate. If you believe what you read here DAL ALPA is trying to shove their proposal down the NWA pilots throats or threatening to side with management.

 

[FDJ2]

Oh no they're much more civil, they at least let an unbiased 3rd party decide their fate. If you believe what you read here DAL ALPA is trying to shove their proposal down the NWA pilots throats or threatening to side with management.

No one is shoving anything down anyone's throat or siding with management.

Allowing a third party to make the hard decisions is a failure of and abdication of leadership. Arbitration is the easy way to avoid accountability and anyone who champions arbitration over negotiation is a fool.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You so funny

You like me? So you'll kill me last?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMkXY6MN96E&feature=related

 

[nonstop]

No one is shoving anything down anyone's throat or siding with management.

Allowing a third party to make the hard decisions is a failure of and abdication of leadership. Arbitration is the easy way to avoid accountability and anyone who champions arbitration over negotiation is a fool.

That's a convenient excuse when arbitration clearly would not side with your position. Besides DAL ALPA were the ones who picked up their ball and went home when they couldn't get everything their way. NWA ALPA was *trying* to negotiate.

Try to rationalize your stance though if it makes you feel better as you posture to sell your union "brothers" and profession down the river for your own self serving short sighted greed.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

All in all, probably about 40-50 people at NWA know the details.

Whereas, apparently everybody at Delta with an internet connection and a flightinfo login knows everything that went on in the negotiations.... right.

 

[Occam's Razor]

No one is shoving anything down anyone's throat or siding with management.

Allowing a third party to make the hard decisions is a failure of and abdication of leadership. Arbitration is the easy way to avoid accountability and anyone who champions arbitration over negotiation is a fool.

Agree 100%! Arbitration is for losers. I've worked for 20 years with the Red/Green Show: Idiots hating Morons (and vice versa). Because of that I've always been a strong advocate of a negotiated SLI.

I also understand the concept of "leverage" and how it applies to this situation.

For Puffy's benefit, I'm also aware of the Scope changes in the DAL deal that would block all NWA pilots from all new deliveries...including the B787's MergeCo assumes under the deal.

I get it. I also understand the well-deserved impatience with our Merger Committee.

The stuff after that gets a little slimy though. Hammering us now, because you have an edge in Section 1 and have been the intermediary in a negotiation with your/our future management, won't be the kind of thing pilots forget.

Karma bites.

True, it bites both ways, and our Brain Trust owns some of this, but just as you can rationalize every action taken by your side (the fake "deadlines" in Feb were my personal favorite "trust builders"), actions taken by ours will be rationalized too.

So management wins.

Until passengers start missing connections...

 

[PuffDriver]

Agree 100%! Arbitration is for losers. I've worked for 20 years with the Red/Green Show: Idiots hating Morons (and vice versa). Because of that I've always been a strong advocate of a negotiated SLI.

I also understand the concept of "leverage" and how it applies to this situation.

For Puffy's benefit, I'm also aware of the Scope changes in the DAL deal that would block all NWA pilots from all new deliveries...including the B787's MergeCo assumes under the deal.

I get it. I also understand the well-deserved impatience with our Merger Committee.

The stuff after that gets a little slimy though. Hammering us now, because you have an edge in Section 1 and have been the intermediary in a negotiation with your/our future management, won't be the kind of thing pilots forget.

Karma bites.

True, it bites both ways, and our Brain Trust owns some of this, but just as you can rationalize every action taken by your side (the fake "deadlines" in Feb were my personal favorite "trust builders"), actions taken by ours will be rationalized too.

So management wins.

Until passengers start missing connections...

sooooooooooooooo..why don't you guys jump on board? You guys have a history of self-defeatism. How about trying something different, because honestly I would rather have it the other way as well.

If every instinct you've had is wrong, then the opposite must be right.

BTW, I still think that for now it is just a threat. the scorched earth policy is merely a backup--again for now.

I am interested to hear any developments you may have heard on your end. Contrary to what it may seem, I want an amicable solution--as does our mec.

 

[PuffDriver]

That's a convenient excuse when arbitration clearly would not side with your position. Besides DAL ALPA were the ones who picked up their ball and went home when they couldn't get everything their way. NWA ALPA was *trying* to negotiate.

Try to rationalize your stance though if it makes you feel better as you posture to sell your union "brothers" and profession down the river for your own self serving short sighted greed.

To the contrary, arbitration has recently sided with our side. Yet arbitration is arbitration. NWA ALPA was trying to negotiate nothing. They had an all or nothing stance, because they were playing the Delta MEC card that the merger could not go through without them. Indeed it can, and if it does, it will be VERY bad for them--possibly terminal. Delta picked up their ball and went home because NOTHING went even close to their way. We met NWA near the 50 yard line, and they remained in their own end zone hoping that the end result would be their 20 year line.


Now the result will be the Delta pilots 10 yard line.
You are not my brother. You want all of "our" money, and you want all of "our" seniority. You have overplayes a pair of deuces, and you are facing a full house. You'd better pray that you either fold or draw two more 2s. Nicey, nicey is about to end, and it's going to get rough. Spare me the greed lecture, pot.

Kettle

 

[nwaredtail]

Now you are starting to get it. That is EXACTLY what happened. Except that it was a bunch more people in there WATCHING your merger committee due to lack of trust. All in all, probably about 40-50 people at NWA know the details.

They were trying to find Moak among all the normal sized people, Geez.....

 

[727RedTails]

Word is that DALPA wants to give up the 100 seat scope in advance of the merger. That way their pilots are protected from any future furlough with the subsequent parking of the DC9's.

I don't have any problem with DALPA working on details of THEIR contract. But working on details in this case will only screw another ALPA carrier. This should all be handled by ALPA national. There will be a bigger mess if this sets a precident.

 

[727RedTails]

Puffdiver,

How the he!! do you know DALPA met us at the 50 yard line. How do you even know any of the facts. Unless you were there you haven't a clue. Nothing has ever been published as to the offer on either side.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Until I am told other wise I will tell you that giving up scope to 100 seats is B.S.
There is way too much at both main line carriers at risk for that.
You though that the last recall got some votes, that one would take the house down. I know it, my fellow aviators know it, and management and our MEC knows it.
Do not mix up the term scope with only 100 seaters. Our Section one is quite large and DCI and its seat limits is only part of it. In fact NWA is mentioned many times in there already.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puffdiver,

How the he!! do you know DALPA met us at the 50 yard line. How do you even know any of the facts. Unless you were there you haven't a clue. Nothing has ever been published as to the offer on either side.

You are welcome not to believe it. Feel free by all means. Seems as if you guys don't believe anybody, hence the reason you had about 50 pilots in there watching each other to make sure you were all legit.


I'm not asking you to believe me, but your future depends on you finding out the truth for yourself, so I urge you to do it, and fast. Tick, tock.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Seems as if you guys don't believe anybody, hence the reason you had about 50 pilots in there watching each other to make sure you were all legit.

50?!?!? Exaggerate much??