Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[ACL65PILOT]

Well part of the PWA General was to take those rates off of the table and renegotiate new rates later. Also the 737-700 rates would be the 800 rates.

Now to answer your question DTW.
I first and foremost was answering your previous question. DOH vs Ratio.
Second, the first round at this included a no furlough clause. Argue what you will that they suck, but fact is that unless 9/11 happens again they are very hard to get around. Any loophole would have been closed.
Come to present day. Last official rumor was that that offer is off the table. Tough times call for tough measures.
Personally the only reason that you would park the 9's is to prove a point. If you would do that before adding lift you leave a gap in the market that will be filled by AAI, B6 and the like. It gives those LLC a reason to live. With out that they will be gone or merge shortly. Facts are facts. I think that our management team knows this as well.
I believe that the 9's and their costs are well worth the long term pricing power that this airline would have. Long term view here. If not I guarantee that we will be seeing a lot of 700's not 70's on property to replace them. It could be a DCI type. That later would not be an issue if the NWA pilots showed up to play ball and not chicken. Alas, we are where we are and I do not think that anyone including our lustrously management teams likes it one bit.

 

[~~~^~~~]

the 737-700 rates would be the 800 rates.

I believe that the 9's and their costs are well worth the long term pricing power that this airline would have. Long term view here. If not I guarantee that we will be seeing a lot of 700's not 70's on property to replace them. It could be a DCI type.

737-700's at DCI? Obviously I misunderstand your post, or did Doug Helms get access to your sign on?

This whole merger would be much easier if we could be assured that the DC9 replacements would be flown by mainline pilots.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No, here on DAL property. Fin.
Part of the original PWA for this new airline had the 700 rates go to 800 rates. I said 70's so that some would not confuse the two. The 700 is a great replacement aircraft for the 9. So is the C series or the 190's Not the CRJ 1000 though.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The economic analysis I've seen and the management reports I've heard indicate the RJ's are better DC-9 replacements and Delta is bound in contracts that they can't wiggle out of.

Replacing 9's with RJ's saves money, increases revenues (by slightly restricting supply) and provides a huge chunk of up front cash in the sale of RJ flying to bidders (like SkyWest/Republic/Private Equity) who are awash with cash.

I hope you are right, but I think the 737-700 order went out the window with higher fuel. It is heavy for what it does and only pays for itself over longer routes, or operations where its' hot and high performance is required.

Again, I hope you are right, but economically the CRJ700 and 900 series are such good DC9 replacements (and some MD88's) that the numbers can't be ignored.

The solution is to get those operations on our list. That way we do not have to worry what airplane management decides to buy.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree Fin really I do. But I think that larger gauge aircraft are the way to go. Maybe some more 90's or 717 that are on the market.
Midex has those and 47% of their board votes are part of NWA/TPG. And there will be a few more of those one the market shortly. RJ's are not the only answer. And if fuel keeps going up the RJ is not the answer period. Bigger ones yes, but not the 900 or 170's, only ones that could be flown by us under the current scope clause.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puffy,

This is a huge mistake. It will hurt you, and your DAL brothers, in the end.

This will breed a new "enemy" for you. One that can, and will, undercut you in the future. Nobody wants to...but human nature is a bitch. A predictable, Be-careful-what-you-wish-for bitch.

The kind of bitch that quickly agrees, under it's separate contract, to fly "your" B777's and B787's for $50 less per hour. Not cuz we're cozy with management, but because we'll want to screw the jerks who put us in this position.

That'd be you.

Your "We had to do this! We had no other choice but to cut our own deal and kick you to the curb!" excuse will come back to haunt you.

Not a threat.

A promise.

From one student of human nature to another. (I was going to type "brother", but it didn't fit under these circumstances. Your choice)

No, the huge mistake was made when NWA wanted the money and the retirement and the seniority. No good bucko. You guys had your chance, and the time is quickly approaching where the rubber meets the road.

NWA has decided that you are being merged. Your contract has a ginormous loophole in it which could be your death knoll. While you are plotting your revenge against the Delta pilots--hey why not since you already have 2 other enemies on NWA property--your flying will go away as well as Compass.

You have had your chance, and have your leadership to blame for playing the hand you think that you had as opposed to the one you really had. For people who are so mistrusting of management, you sure had a lot of faith in yours not betraying you.

Simple fact is that the very scenario you describe, undercutting, is what is happening to you due to your MECs lack of preparation, diligence, and sense of fairness.

It is your leadership that is bringing this on. Remember that as your pilots begin hitting the streets.

"The common link in all of your dissatisfying relationships is YOU."

BTW, what makes you think that the Delta MEC--who has been way out ahead of this thing from the start--hasn't already conceived, addressed, and solved your little scenario of being the pissed off rejected girl?

How about this: company's merged, NWA and compass dissolved over time, Comair given the 100 seat jet and stapled to the bottom of the list. If you are going to play 8's as aces, perhaps we will turn over our cards and have aces you never knew existed.

Or maybe this all is just another slap upside the head badly needed by your MEC

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well put Puff, and yes our MEC is way head of that issue.
If you play well today you will be rewarded for it. I would put money on there being some provisos in such an agreement if it were to come to that.

 

[nwaredtail]

No, the huge mistake was made when NWA wanted the money and the retirement and the seniority. No good bucko. You guys had your chance, and the time is quickly approaching where the rubber meets the road.

Really. Who told you this is what we wanted. Because it is not even close to what we discussed with your merger committee and the "little" one

NWA has decided that you are being merged. Your contract has a ginormous loophole in it which could be your death knoll. Maybe. If scumbag pilots allow 100 seat flying to be done by other than NWA or Delta mainline pilots. Think SCABS!

You have had your chance, and have your leadership to blame for playing the hand you think that you had as opposed to the one you really had. Yup, 2 proposals from DALALPA in 12 weeks. I know you all are from down south and all, but, if you could work a little faster, we maybe could have gotten the deal done.

Simple fact is that the very scenario you describe, undercutting, is what is happening to you due to your MECs lack of preparation, diligence, and sense of fairness. Like ASA, Comair, Skywest did to Delta when you gave away your scope. Short memory huh?

It is your leadership that is bringing this on. Remember that as your pilots begin hitting the streets. Yup, sold out by scab, scumbags, pilots like yourself. Puff driver huh? "No fighters available", isn't that the line from the 130 guys.

"The common link in all of your dissatisfying relationships is YOU."

BTW, what makes you think that the Delta MEC--who has been way out ahead of this thing from the start--hasn't already conceived, addressed, and solved your little scenario of being the pissed off rejected girl? Because we probably thought DAL pilots had some integrity and honer, shame on us.

How about this: company's merged, NWA and compass dissolved over time, Comair given the 100 seat jet and stapled to the bottom of the list. If you are going to play 8's as aces, perhaps we will turn over our cards and have aces you never knew existed.

How about this, 4500 pissed of NWA pilots let NWA and DAL go under. It's happened before.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Because we probably thought DAL pilots had some integrity and honer, shame on us.

How about this, 4500 pissed of NWA pilots let NWA and DAL go under. It's happened before.

That's rich.

Why not take Delta's offer and screw the Delta pilots? Then laugh at us as our relative seniority gets us the right seat of a DC9 in Detroit?

 

[nwaredtail]

That's rich.

Why not take Delta's offer and screw the Delta pilots? Then laugh at us as our relative seniority gets us the right seat of a DC9 in Detroit?

Which Delta offer was that? Details please.

Was it the offer to have 80% of the widebody seats in 5 years be all DAL pilots? Or the offer to furlough 700 plus NWA pilots only? How about the offer to give the 100 seat flying to the regionals? Was it the ratioed list plus 20% offer, in favor of the DAL pilots.

Exactly which one of those is it?

 

[nwaredtail]

That's rich.

Why not take Delta's offer and screw the Delta pilots? Then laugh at us as our relative seniority gets us the right seat of a DC9 in Detroit?

If your low on the seniority list at either carrier, you're screwed in a merger either way.

 

[FBN0223]

If your low on the seniority list at either carrier, you're screwed in a merger either way.

Hopefully it's not so long Saipan and hello Raleigh-Durham. Really liking life on the B757 and as much as the Delta guys don't want to fly our DC-9s, many of us aren't thrilled about the prospect of flying Delta'a DC-9-80s.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Was it the ratioed list plus 20% offer, in favor of the DAL pilots.

Now that was your offer; that you took back. (I would type "reneged," but that term confuses rednecks) Keep 'em offers straight would you? You'll never cut it selling used cars.

Was it the offer to have 80% of the wide body seats in 5 years be all DAL pilots?

Isn't that about the ratio now? Why wait 5 years?

How about the offer to give the 100 seat flying to the regionals?

Replacing the DC9's with RJ's was Steenland's plan. Ever heard of Compass, or Pinnacle? You say fleet floor - management says Delta's growth has that covered. But I am with you on that concern.

The problem is that the DC9's are going away and neither side has scope that keeps that flying at mainline.

 

[DTW320]

Replacing the DC9's with RJ's was Steenland's plan. Ever heard of Compass, or Pinnacle? You say fleet floor - management says Delta's growth has that covered.

Bovine Excrement Fins. Steenland could "plan" whatever he wants.....our Scope clause says no. Your Scope clause is horrible, yet DALPA has apparently found a way to make it even worse in exchange for some trinkets.

 

[PuffDriver]

Really. Who told you this is what we wanted. Because it is not even close to what we discussed with your merger committee and the "little" one

The information is out there. The agreement was negotiated which benefitted NWA greatly. There is NO disputing that. So the only way you can be only partially right is if it is NOT true that you wanted credit for your retirees which are not here yet, you WANTED to discount our retirees in 10 years, you did NOT want to give us credit for 777s, you WANTED credit for 787s, you did NOT want discounted for -9s going away, you did NOT want closer to DOH in the list. We're waiting with baited breath. Which are wrong and which are right. Better yet, give us the proposal since you know it.

If scumbag pilots allow 100 seat flying to be done by other than NWA or Delta mainline pilots. Think SCABS!

You show up anywhere calling me a scumbag or a scab, you'd better duck, and quick. Besides, where has the information been posted that DAL will outsource 100 seat flying? Who says that Delta pilots will not fly them, or another group will be added to the mix at the bottom of our list to do that flying? To reiterate, the Delta pilots are not the ones being hardnosed in this integration. They don't want an arbitrator to determine integration, nor should anyone.


Yup, 2 proposals from DALALPA in 12 weeks. I know you all are from down south and all, but, if you could work a little faster, we maybe could have gotten the deal done.


Yeah, right. The Delta MEC gave up the majority of the raises in order to bring the NWA pilots up to parity on just about every level, proposed a fair integration that increased every NWA pilots career earnings, and it is OUR fault? PLease. Go sell it on your message boards.


Yup, sold out by scab, scumbags, pilots like yourself. Puff driver huh? "No fighters available", isn't that the line from the 130 guys.


As I said, come up to a picket line and call me a scab or a scumbag, hack your watch, and figure out when you wake up how long you were out. Your lack of the definition of a scab is second only to your lack of knowledge of Delta, and where the screenname puffdriver came from. Hint: I was never in the military, I was out in the work force paying your salary to learn to fly.

How about this, 4500 pissed of NWA pilots let NWA and DAL go under. It's happened before.


See my line right above this. Who says that will not be part of the plan. You had your chance. Your CEO is NOT on your side. The Delta pilots were ready to welcome you with open arms. Instead, we were labeled as redneck idiots, holding no cards, and wanting too much seniority by a bunch of unprepared idiots, who were flailing for any kind of volunteers for committees, who gave an acceptable proposal to the Delta pilots, then reneged on it as they found out they botched it.

Deal with it, son. Your 15 minutes are about up, and the deal is going forward with or without you.

But hopefully you will be happy with your ability to call me puffy. It's really all you have got in the arsenal.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If your low on the seniority list at either carrier, you're screwed in a merger either way.

Thanks for the information, I was unclear on that point.

Meanwhile DTW320 has upped the ante' in the web board monkey poo fight to include Bovine Effluvia.

Hopefully I can bid out to Hawaii after we run Mesa out of business, buy Hawaiian, and forget NWA.

 

[DTW320]

Thanks for the information, I was unclear on that point.

Meanwhile DTW320 has upped the ante' in the web board monkey poo fight to include Bovine Effluvia.

Hopefully I can bid out to Hawaii after we run Mesa out of business, buy Hawaiian, and forget NWA.

It was excrement to be precise....but maybe that means the same thing, I dunno..

As for the "ante", I think that Puffdaddy threatening physical assault on NWA pilots is gonna kinda carry the whole "ante" thing for a while here.

 

[~~~^~~~]

As I said, come up to a picket line and call me a scab or a scumbag, hack your watch, and figure out when you wake up how long you were out.

Probably true. The Squirrels in his back yard look like this guy.

http://www.bored.com/photos/squirrelwithbignuts_2.html

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I nominate PuffDriver's post as best post of the day.

 

[General Lee]

Hopefully it's not so long Saipan and hello Raleigh-Durham. Really liking life on the B757 and as much as the Delta guys don't want to fly our DC-9s, many of us aren't thrilled about the prospect of flying Delta'a DC-9-80s.

The MD88s are like the Space Shuttle compared to the diesel 9s. Most of those -9 pilots would still ask for headings though, even though the IOE guy would remind him "hey now, remember, we have an FMS or "magic box" that can do it all for you...." And there is still a rumor out there that states we will get more MD90s to replace some of the DC9s too----which was a pretty good rumor since all of the CVG based pilots were trained on the -90 in the meantime. They would not have done that without a good reason.

I don't think you will be bumped off of your 757---not many want to move North. I think we have more to worry about since there are soooo many NWA commuters who live South of MSP/DTW.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

The information is out there. The agreement was negotiated which benefitted NWA greatly. There is NO disputing that.

So, it must be that our merger committee and MEC are just a bunch of idiots for walking away from a deal that benefitted NWA greatly. Thanks for clearing that up.