Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[General Lee]

Wow. Just....Wow. Just continue to ignore the FACTS of this situation over and over. The "fair" SLI that we should have fallen over ourselves to sign was NOT within .05%. Not even close. If it was, then ask yourself why we didn't take it. The DALPA "fair" plan would have put a ton of NWA pilots on the bottom of the combined list. Now here's the kicker: DALPA SCOPE would allow DAL to park all the DC-9's with no impact on 76 seat RJ flying. Gee Wally, let's sell them the knife that they will use to slit our throats!! Great idea! And, as if your scope wasn't bad enough, it now looks like DALPA can't wait to sell more of it for some raises. Oh well, it allows Moak to avoid arbitration. It's hilarious to watch all the deltoids here go from "Moak can shut down any merger" to "this is going to happen anyway so we have to protect ourselves (by selling our souls)".

Good luck with the picketing in MSP & DTW.

Sounds like you had BETTER get a new guy in there that will negotiate. If you want your scope clause to stay, then DO SOMETHING. Wake up, and get rid of your guy with an unrealistic agenda. You are sounding a lot like USAir Easties with "entitlement" issues. Guess what? You still have your pension, and will get a pay raise, better work rules, better bases, more widebodies, and not move down a seat. If we still had our pensions, and we didn't lose 2000 senior pilots, you and I would be lav dumpers, well, at least you would be. Be thankful, and elect a new guy that will negotiate. It is the only way for your voices to be heard. It sounds like there will be a merger regardless.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

737Pylt:

I don't get it. If I raise a concern about outsourcing and the desire to keep flying at Delta, you slam me. Not the ideas, just me personally by association with folks you despise.

No, what you raised was more of your pro rjdc rhetoric! We all know what their ideas were, you were included in those ideas. However, I thought you moved along....I guess I was wrong!

Do you want more outsourcing? Do you want ALPA to fail? Really, what is your agenda?

To kill the rjdc! They cost my union lots of $$ for nothing but a frivilous lawsuit and ideas that were based on hijacking seniority! Its been beat to death ad nauseum here! YOU were the one who said that the rjdc was being revived, remember??

I could allege you are more in bed with JoeMerchant et. al. because you align yourself with his ideas when you come after me with the torches and pitchforks. Joe and I are opposites on most issues.

And yet you were both under dan's desk over at the rjdc headquarters! You're a hypocrite fins, and its starting to show.....Maybe you should have just stayed at ASA!

In any event, you waste your time being mad at me, I'm a nobody in this process.

That's for sure. Besides, you said you were going to resign anyway, so why all the noise now? Maybe you're thinking of joining dan and jessee in their attempt to extort more money from alpa?

737

 

[~~~^~~~]

I'm referring to the DAL MEC cutting a deal with management that could be called, "Lorenzo's Baby".

Woerth had cake and drinks with the Continental Scabs (acutal scabs, not name calling) when he welcomed back into the union with no back dues. If Woerth is behind the scenes at NWA, take the time to ask him about it and watch the fish go cold while waiting for a reply.

 

[General Lee]

Ok, I don't have much more time today, but I'll give it a try here. I will state first that I have not seen any proposed seniority list, nor have I spoken to anybody who does. I have, however, spoken at length with what I consider the smartest person with numbers involved in these talks. to answer you question, I do not know where your number will fall. What I encourage, and what I hope is obvious, is to look at what is happening in the industry from a global perspective. If all you can do is look at your hire date and see that you will be junior to somebody hired after you, I cannot help you. I do not know what the proposed list looks like, but I would guess that, yes, that is the case. You will be junior to somebody who got hired after you. However, your career earnings will go up as a result of the deal. The money that this brings up front is probably now less, but is probably still there and your career is better off with the Delta deal than without it.

As for your threats of union busting, etc, I will ignore them. That, to me, is like playing the race card. You've already lost the debate if you can't find any other argument than calling people a scab. What you fail to realize is that the Delta MEC does not want it this way. They will also not be back-doored into a process that will create the same ill will as what they are covering their bases for, and which gives the Delta pilots a far more known outcome.


Please feel free to respond with relevant stuff. I understand your lack of trust with management. I don't blame you. I have the same lack of trust, and so does our MEC. Unlike his predecessors, our new CEO has come through on everything he has promised. Therefore, our MEC has rightfully adopted a trust, but verify approach rather than the usual head butt approach. If that bothers you, keep your course steady bound for the abyss, but realize that there will be repercussions. The Delta MEC has been on top of this from day 1 minus 1000 days. They have been right at every call, and they are the ones who have paved the path of forcing the involvement of organized labor within the context of a merger. They and they alone created the package of raises in this time of turmoil, which other MEC heads have now copycated in their press releases. Forgive me, but I am going with them on this one and taking their word.

That was a good post.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

Wow. Just....Wow. Just continue to ignore the FACTS of this situation over and over. The "fair" SLI that we should have fallen over ourselves to sign was NOT within .05%. Not even close. If it was, then ask yourself why we didn't take it. The DALPA "fair" plan would have put a ton of NWA pilots on the bottom of the combined list. Now here's the kicker: DALPA SCOPE would allow DAL to park all the DC-9's with no impact on 76 seat RJ flying. Gee Wally, let's sell them the knife that they will use to slit our throats!! Great idea! And, as if your scope wasn't bad enough, it now looks like DALPA can't wait to sell more of it for some raises. Oh well, it allows Moak to avoid arbitration. It's hilarious to watch all the deltoids here go from "Moak can shut down any merger" to "this is going to happen anyway so we have to protect ourselves (by selling our souls)".

Good luck with the picketing in MSP & DTW.

I'm glad to see even from behind bars Miss Cleo can gve detoilet320 all his misinformation!:laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[DTW320]

Sounds like you had BETTER get a new guy in there that will negotiate. If you want your scope clause to stay, then DO SOMETHING. Wake up, and get rid of your guy with an unrealistic agenda. You are sounding a lot like USAir Easties with "entitlement" issues. Guess what? You still have your pension, and will get a pay raise, better work rules, better bases, more widebodies, and not move down a seat. If we still had our pensions, and we didn't lose 2000 senior pilots, you and I would be lav dumpers, well, at least you would be. Be thankful, and elect a new guy that will negotiate. It is the only way for your voices to be heard. It sounds like there will be a merger regardless.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Congrats on skillfully avoiding addressing a single issue that I raised. Now you better go get ready for picketing. Is that the batphone ringing?

 

[~~~^~~~]

No, what you raised was more of your pro rjdc rhetoric!

Is it possible for me to admit someone is correct without being "pro" ?

I like sunshine more than rain. Does that make me "pro" drought? In any event, I'm just an observer, if it rains, it rains.

Of course if D-ALPA cuts a side deal with management to disenfranchise an acquired airline's pilots while engaging in a big flying award from one group to another (with a possible CMR sale) that is going to show up on the RJDC's radar. Add to this the fact that they are still negotiating the language of their settlement with ALPA - so they are still engaged.

I just reported the news and was surprised at how good their crystal ball was since they guessed at the issues involved about 4 days ago.

I never supported the RJDC monetary demands and could not be associated with them, but I understand why they had to be there.

Enough about me. Do you want D-ALPA to break away from ALPA? If you do, your criticisms are more understandable.

If you don't, then you have to agree that it would be better for ALPA to have an internal mechanism to resolve disputes.

Lets look at the way things are:

1. ALPA National hopes that MEC's will work issues out between each other without intervention.
2. ALPA has a fiduciary duty to its' members - a duty to hold member's interests above its own
3. ALPA relies on MEC's to uphold a fiduciary obligation to ALPA members (even those represented by other MEC's) - it always fails
4. Hello Mike Haber

Now, I do not like Mike Haber or litigation against my union. But unless we have a way to resolve these battles at ALPA National, we are going to keep going down the road that lead to the RJDC and the USAPA.

 

[clippyrip]

Negotiations are back on and we are back to bickering. All this talk of a side deal is exactly what MGMT wants to divide us. Can you say whipsaw....we have to stop this. WE MUST STAND TOGETHER.

 

[~~~^~~~]

deleted....

 

[Superpilot92]

Behind what? Or who?

Each other, if this is going to go down it has to be together. Mgmt wants nothing more than for us to be diversified. If we are to busy fighting one another we wont be able to fight them. ALPA is really dropping the ball on this and many other things. They should be focusing on us working together not allowing DALALPA to pull Lorenzo tactics. WTF

 

[Occam's Razor]

Woerth had cake and drinks with the Continental Scabs (acutal scabs, not name calling) when he welcomed back into the union with no back dues. If Woerth is behind the scenes at NWA, take the time to ask him about it and watch the fish go cold while waiting for a reply.

You're a pup, so I'm gonna give you a pass on this one.

This is my gentlest language:

Lorenzo's actions regarding CAL/EAL as segments of Texas Air Grp caused the problem. Period.

Got that?

The strike occurred much later, after other events, and well after the (I couldn't make this up!) "double-breasted" operation was established. The rift in support was caused by the separation of the two pilot groups.

Don't read any further until you understand that part, cuz it's got nothing to do with the next part.

The CAL scabs were/are scabs. Period. Duane's efforts to bring CAL back into ALPA were precipitated by CAL pilots who were loyal ALPA members and full-term strikers. They wanted back into ALPA.

We voted to bring them back in. We kept faith with the loyal CAL ALPA members who'd kept faith with us. I voted for it. I did because "Semper Fideles" means something to me. It meant that I had to accept a bunch of scum-sucking scabs into my union to keep faith with those who kept faith with me. So be it.

 

[clippyrip]

Behind what? Or who?

Offering up a union busting side contract is managements version of a hailmary pass. The Delta pilots are smart enough to see a whipsaw when it is in their face.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam,

Excellent post, agree with you and you nailed me taking an easy political swipe.

The scary thing is the Continental pilots came out well as did the Delta pilots who did not hire any Eastern strikers.

Whoever brought out the Lorenzo comparison has a good sense of politics and history. The problem is that history is not on your side if the NWA pilots choose to make themselves irrelevant as a result of their intransigence.

Do you think the NWA pilots should re-evaluate, or fight?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Offering up a union busting side contract is managements version of a hailmary pass. The Delta pilots are smart enough to see a whipsaw when it is in their face.

If you can't tell from 737Pylt's attacks, I'm the oddball around here.

Legally there is not entity as D-ALPA. But the political reality is, D-ALPA is stronger than ALPA. I suppose NWA-ALPA is similarly empowered. That's the rub.

Who do we stand behind?

 

[Occam's Razor]

As for your threats of union busting, etc, I will ignore them. That, to me, is like playing the race card. You've already lost the debate if you can't find any other argument than calling people a scab. What you fail to realize is that the Delta MEC does not want it this way. They will also not be back-doored into a process that will create the same ill will as what they are covering their bases for, and which gives the Delta pilots a far more known outcome.

Puffy,

This is a huge mistake. It will hurt you, and your DAL brothers, in the end.

This will breed a new "enemy" for you. One that can, and will, undercut you in the future. Nobody wants to...but human nature is a bitch. A predictable, Be-careful-what-you-wish-for bitch.

The kind of bitch that quickly agrees, under it's separate contract, to fly "your" B777's and B787's for $50 less per hour. Not cuz we're cozy with management, but because we'll want to screw the jerks who put us in this position.

That'd be you.

Your "We had to do this! We had no other choice but to cut our own deal and kick you to the curb!" excuse will come back to haunt you.

Not a threat.

A promise.

From one student of human nature to another. (I was going to type "brother", but it didn't fit under these circumstances. Your choice)

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

That hinges on the contract language.

Still, if you remember my "Fair Plan" it offers a perfect mechanism to enable orderly bidding into the new Company. I really wonder why no one (in a relevant position) has considered such a concept as opposed to all these hysterics.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

What you say Occam is exactly the reason/response that I think that this leak was made. I think that ALPA and DAL/NWA management knew this.
The next step is do you walk out of the house and burn it down for the heck of it, or do you come back to the table and break bread. I truly feel that the the ball is in your MEC's court.
No more finger pointing or name calling, I thought that you were above that. It is time for cold harsh realities. Fact is that when the dust settles from this DAL management and DALPA will be in play. I am sure as the day is long that DALPA if forced in to this will make sure that we have scope from what you mentioned above happening.
Lets be realistic and get this done today. Give management what they want. An SLI that works for both groups. Is your team ready?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fin;
My guess would be because it may be something that does not fit with a/c and base movements that will happen with the new company. IE too complicated. Not that I do not like it, but I am sure that it may be seen as a fence by the powers that be.

 

[Superpilot92]

We need to start actually being union brothers instead of every team for themselves. At some point we will be one pilot group and until that group is unified we will never get the pay back to where it should be. Just say no to scope relief and whipsawing.
lets getter done!!:beer:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Tell your leadership that. I agree whole heartedly.
Simply put, the DAL pilots will not agree to arbitration for one simple reason. We do not want to put our careers in the hands of some two bit bureaucrat.