Crappy Pay Offered At Nja

[gunfyter]

Grump - dont skimp on the details now...

Humor me and tell me, in detail, where the logic is wrong -

again, in your own words (and the union's):

• Pilot median pay was under $50,000 three years ago
• Pilot median pay now is $60,984
• Pilot median pay has risen at least $11,000 in three years

So how did median pay increase at least $11,000 in three years if you are not getting raises from the company?....

The problem is median pay is NOT 60.984

Its in the low 50's. ie just barely over 50. 3 yrs ago it was $47K.

About 1/2 of what it needs to be. 50%.

 

[steel]

FG, do you need a friend? You seem to be upset? Are you allergic to apostrophes? I'm not mad. If you think I was complaining, then I'm sorry because I wasn't. I was stating opionions and FACTS, unlike your DJing spinmaster writing.


You know we will win. I'm sorry you don't understand. Your blood pressure is getting high. This isn't healthy for you.

 

[GVFlyer]

Sorry, you really don't have a clue do you.

...The problem with that is-
2. Berkshire Hathaway is a privatly owned company.

Berkshire Hathaway is a publicly traded company. They issue BRK.A and BRK.B stock. I have BRK.B stock in my portfolio.

Think single carrier suit and that is the catch 22 of why the union will always be here.

If a single carrier suit were legal and possible, the Teamster's would have already filed it.

GV

 

[steel]

Berkshire Hathaway is a publicly traded company. They issue BRK.A and BRK.B stock. I have BRK.B stock in my portfolio.




If a single carrier suit were legal and possible, the Teamster's would have already filed it.

GV

Keep dreaming. It will be done. Just do all of us a favor. When you are over here and are someone's FO, just do your job and get the papers, ice, coffee, catering and clearance and let us know when it's done.

Repeat after me.....STAPLE, STAPLE, STAPLE

 

[Hawkered]

Well actually, you're both right...and you're both wrong.

IBT 1108 has the right to negotiate in its Collective Bargaining Agreement for all flying covered under the arrangement with the owners. The company can counter this request by paralleling all working conditions and make the operational argument for redundancies due to power outages, natural disasters, security breaches or terrorist attacks on US soil.

The truth is, the company might or might not win this argument. AMR lost its suit against the regional affiliates (Simmons, Executives, Wings West etc), for the purpose of collective bargaining under the American Eagle umbrella. Robert Crandall made it the habit of moving his own affiliates around to undercut each other in the same markets he controlled anyway, the courts didn't like that.

Any merger of lists would also end up falling under arbitration and would probably go in a ratio of date of hire...very rarely does the union stapler get used for this, as was the case with TWA/American.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Grump - dont skimp on the details now...

Why not? I asked you a question and got the same answer from you...

NBAA wages have as much bearing as airline wages do - very little - for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board.

Okay for you, but not for me, huh?

Humor me and tell me, in detail, where the logic is wrong -

So how did median pay increase at least $11,000 in three years if you are not getting raises from the company?

I never said that we weren't getting raises from the company. What I have tried to get through your thick skull several times now is that longevity raises do not compensate for COLA. A 5th year captain in 1998 was paid $60984. A 5th year captain today, 7 years later, is paid $60984. There is NO cost-of-living increase!

The reason the median pay has increased is because 3 years ago, there were 1265+ 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-year-pay guys, with many still on FO pay. They are all making captain's pay now, and 900+ of those are on the 5th year scale or above. The median would be even higher if there had been no hiring since - but that doesn't mean that the pay would have actually increased more, does it?

 

[gunfyter]

Grump

He does not understand that you can walk in and do his job tomorrow or with a couple of weeks training... but it would take years for him to be able to do your job ... IF EVER.

 

[GEXDriver]

[GVFlyer]- Keep dreaming. It will be done. Just do all of us a favor. When you are over here and are someone's FO, just do your job and get the papers, ice, coffee, catering and clearance and let us know when it's done.

Repeat after me.....STAPLE, STAPLE, STAPLE

GVFlyer is a former Gulfstream test pilot who went to work for one of Gulfstream's Fortune 100 customers as a senior captain. There, he earns a multiple of what the max pay at NJI is, so I don't think you're going to get him to come to work for you. I think he probably earns more in his spare time as a consultant for Gulfstream than you do in direct compensation at NJA.

 

[Hogprint]

And you consistently forget to mention the 6-5 schedule at NJI, the larger aircraft, the higher productivity, the more flexible work rules, and the avoided cost of having to deal with the bureaucracy of a union.

Higher productivity? Please explain. Just how do you define productive? This ought to be good!

Flexible work rules? Don't we all work under the same rules? Did the FAR's come out with Gulfstream specific rules?

 

[GVFlyer]

Berkshire Hathaway is a publicly traded company. They issue BRK.A and BRK.B stock. I have BRK.B stock in my portfolio.




If a single carrier suit were legal and possible, the Teamster's would have already filed it.

GV

Keep dreaming. It will be done. Just do all of us a favor. When you are over here and are someone's FO, just do your job and get the papers, ice, coffee, catering and clearance and let us know when it's done.

Repeat after me.....STAPLE, STAPLE, STAPLE

Thanks for your sentiment.

I don't work for NJI and never have. I can, however, recognize a premier organization where pilots and management work together to grow the company and take care of pilots. I was flying for Gulfstream Flight Test when the company was formed. Rick Schwartz and Peter Honchak did the initial interviews in offices in the Customer Lounge just accross the hall from Gulfstream Flight Ops while Joe Murphy shuttled back and forth between Savannah and Montvale to hammer out work rules, compensation, and home basing. The pilots they hired have worked hard for 10 years to make NJI a great place to work.

I flew with them in the 90's. We had a couple of 1/8th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as a NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and got to know many of the line pilots. Some of the pilots I had known previously from the Gulfstream community at Andrews AFB. All were dedicated professionals. I also know the Okatie leadership group from our efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of the organization and it is my observation that the NJI pilots are a very happy group with the company that they worked together to build. They don't need or want your union.

The initial contract forged by Gulfstream and EJI was not any kind of a lever against NJA as many here have suggested. The contract was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstmann and Santulli are too much alike to have gotten along easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli could not capitalize the deal at that time. For brand protection, Gulfstream demanded that only internationally experienced Gulfstream captains with 2500 hours in type be hired for the new venture. Safety was to be a key marketing point and buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified Gulfstream pilots. To draw and retain the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry standard (and still are).


The existing relationship between NJI and Gulfstream is a close one. Raynor Reavis was VP for Gulfstream Shares, left Gulfstream to work with Keven Russell as Vice President for NetJets Sales, then returned to Gulfstream where he is presently Vice President Sales and Marketing.

My guess is that Berkshire Hathaway and General Dynamics / Gulfstream are in negotiations and will find it mutually beneficial for GD / Gulfstream to purchase NJI in order to complete their marketing line-up just as Citation, Raytheon, Bombardier and other airframers have done. Gulfstream presently offers charter through Gulfstream Charter Sales, lease through GFS, small through large cabin aircraft with the G100, G150, G200, G350, G450, G500, G550 aircraft lines, but has no fractional company.

GV







~

 

[gutshotdraw]

Once again, GV is on the mark and for the sake of all involved, I hope the GD scenario comes to pass.

Meanwhile, Hogprint, the productivity question you have relates to the fact that NJI pilots have no bypass pay, don't get paid extra for long days, don't get paid extra for being called out early, don't get 21 straight days off for a vacation three times a year (as a 7-7 holder at NJA does), 50 % work 6-5 schedules etc. etc. These are just a few of the contract items that affect scheduling and finance at a union shop versus a non-union one.

NJI is currently crewed at 5.7 pilots per aircraft and aircraft utilization runs just shy of 100 hours per month. Do you have the NJA numbers handy? Can't speak to utilization over there but my rough division shows more than 6 pilots per aircraft at NJA. THAT is higher productivity.

 

[El Chupacabra]

...for the sake of all involved, I hope the GD scenario comes to pass.

Sounds good to me.

Bring on the Falcon 7X

 

[FamilyGuy]

The problem is median pay is NOT 60.984

Its in the low 50's. ie just barely over 50. 3 yrs ago it was $47K.

About 1/2 of what it needs to be. 50%.

[font=arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
NetJets Pilot 25th%ile Median 75th%ile
[/font]
[font=verdana,arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gateway, USA[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$57,996[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$60,984[/font] [font=verdana, arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$64,188[/font]

Can you guys at least sync up your stories before you start posting here?

You make it very easy for me to point out the inconsistencies, but you'd think you would learn over time...

 

[FamilyGuy]

FG, do you need a friend? You seem to be upset? Are you allergic to apostrophes? I'm not mad. If you think I was complaining, then I'm sorry because I wasn't. I was stating opionions and FACTS, unlike your DJing spinmaster writing.


You know we will win. I'm sorry you don't understand. Your blood pressure is getting high. This isn't healthy for you.

Sorry about the apostrophes....I'm used to the auto correct feature that adds them automatically.

Are you allergic to spell-check?

As for my health, I appreciate the concern...but this doesnt get me upset...the inconsistencies I see here, coupled with the relative ease I have in poking holes in your reasoning is actually amusing to me....and laughter is the best medicine...

 

[FamilyGuy]

I never said that we weren't getting raises from the company. What I have tried to get through your thick skull several times now is that longevity raises do not compensate for COLA. A 5th year captain in 1998 was paid $60984. A 5th year captain today, 7 years later, is paid $60984. There is NO cost-of-living increase!

Grump - I understand your point, but the fact remains that a 5 year captain being paid $60,984 in 1998 is now a 12 year captain being paid $87,960. An increase that more than covers the impact of inflation.

The current 5 year guys are being paid $60,984 just like the first guy in 1998. However, the world has changed significantly over the last 7 years, and that $60,984 compares a lot more favorably now than it did in 1998 to most of the aviation jobs out there.

The reason the median pay has increased is because 3 years ago, there were 1265+ 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-year-pay guys, with many still on FO pay. They are all making captain's pay now, and 900+ of those are on the 5th year scale or above. The median would be even higher if there had been no hiring since - but that doesn't mean that the pay would have actually increased more, does it?

If the median pay is $11,000 higher in 2005 vs 2002, then pay has increased.

 

[gunfyter]

Can you guys at least sync up your stories before you start posting here?

You make it very easy for me to point out the inconsistencies, but you'd think you would learn over time...

Here is the problem. If you look at the fellow who is right at the middle of the seniority list... that guy makes $60,984 .

But if you take the total payroll in dollars and divide by the total number of pilots...

You get low 50's.

So what does NJ pay per pilot? Just about 50K. Excluding BBJ.

 

[gunfyter]

Grump - I understand your point, but the fact remains that a 5 year captain being paid $60,984 in 1998 is now a 12 year captain being paid $87,960. An increase that more than covers the impact of inflation

But it does not make up for the fact he should have been making $90k in 1998..

Or the fact that he is now flying the Falcon 2000 Easy and not the Citation S-II

 

[Ultra Grump]

Grump - I understand your point, but the fact remains that a 5 year captain being paid $60,984 in 1998 is now a 12 year captain being paid $87,960. An increase that more than covers the impact of inflation.

Oh boy, anybody got a 2x4?

The current 5 year guys are being paid $60,984 just like the first guy in 1998. However, the world has changed significantly over the last 7 years, and that $60,984 compares a lot more favorably now than it did in 1998 to most of the aviation jobs out there.

This is the most asinine statement you've made so far. Now you're really reaching.

If the median pay is $11,000 higher in 2005 vs 2002, then pay has increased.

The saying "thick as a brick" keeps coming to mind...

The reason the median pay has increased is because 3 years ago, there were 1265+ 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-year-pay guys, with many still on FO pay. They are all making captain's pay now, and 900+ of those are on the 5th year scale or above. The median would be even higher if there had been no hiring since - but that doesn't mean that the pay would have actually increased more, does it?

Read REEEEEEAAALLL slow, you might get it this time...

Can you guys at least sync up your stories before you start posting here?

You make it very easy for me to point out the inconsistencies, but you'd think you would learn over time...

Okay Einstein, if you were as smart as you're telling us you are, you would realize that gunfyter has "median" and "average" confused. The median pay at NJA right now is $60,984, as I said. The average pay is in the low $50's, as gunfyter said. No inconsistencies on this side of the fence. You're looking a little Swiss-cheesy, though.

 

[Bad Monkey!]

Trolls sitting down at CMH at their computer screens with nothing better to do. Let's just get rid of them because frankly they are not needed. I mean WHAT do you really do screen reader? Do you have a certificate to dispatch? Are you a meteorologist? Let's just put you dismal pay into the pool to pay the pilot group. Ouch, the truth hurts!

It's too bad that a troll or two can access this message board while at work from Columbus. Actually they can access multiple computers thus having more than one name post. Then again if you’re in management YOU really don't have anything to do at this point but try to spread FUD-Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. It won't work trolls because this is the most cohesive group of pilots that I have seen. Yes we still have a few < 5% who just don't get it, but those numbers, they are a changing'.

The mortar on the brick wall has cured and it's solid as a rock, behind that first brick wall is 2000+ more brick walls to support the first. In other words we are here to stay, so get used to it. Your sewage that you spill gives me a laugh every now and then. So go on trolls keep writing ferry tales, I need new bedtime stories to read to my daughter.

 

[CMHTroll]

It's too bad that a troll or two can access this message board while at work from Columbus. Actually they can access multiple computers thus having more than one name post. Then again if you’re in management YOU really don't have anything to do at this point but try to spread FUD-Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. It won't work trolls because this is the most cohesive group of pilots that I have seen. Yes we still have a few < 5% who just don't get it, but those numbers, they are a changing'.

It is time for you to take a poll and look closely at your numbers. It ain't 5% anymore. It is closer to 35% and growing everyday. Before long it will be 51% and you will be in the minority. Who knows, they just might decide that the foolish behavior of your MEC is getting them nowhere. But it sounds like you are getting the messageand starting to understand what the reality of the situation really is. So we will just wait and see how you do at the table. After all Monkey, that is what counts if you want anything to change for you.

 

[Bad Monkey!]

CMHTroll-

I have to go and fly the pledge now...

Your words mean nothing to a dedicated union brother...

So to all Trolls I say this-


AMF

 

[gunfyter]

Please do not trash your fellow workers... just because some unknown person posts here pretending to be one of them...

 

[Lake Alice]

It is time for you to take a poll and look closely at your numbers. It ain't 5% anymore. It is closer to 35% and growing everyday. Before long it will be 51% and you will be in the minority. Who knows, they just might decide that the foolish behavior of your MEC is getting them nowhere. But it sounds like you are getting the messageand starting to understand what the reality of the situation really is. So we will just wait and see how you do at the table. After all Monkey, that is what counts if you want anything to change for you.

Like we could ever believe statistics from a desk driving incompetent.

 

[Hogprint]

A troll posted:

It is closer to 35% and growing everyday. Before long it will be 51% and you will be in the minority.

Please enlighten us on how you came by these scientific numbers of yours. I would say that is one heck of an increase. By the looks of things so far this week, I'd say we're a lot closer to 1%.

Having fun yet boys? It will probably not get much better.

 

[Hogprint]

Once again, GV is on the mark and for the sake of all involved, I hope the GD scenario comes to pass.

Meanwhile, Hogprint, the productivity question you have relates to the fact that NJI pilots have no bypass pay, don't get paid extra for long days, don't get paid extra for being called out early, don't get 21 straight days off for a vacation three times a year (as a 7-7 holder at NJA does), 50 % work 6-5 schedules etc. etc. These are just a few of the contract items that affect scheduling and finance at a union shop versus a non-union one.

NJI is currently crewed at 5.7 pilots per aircraft and aircraft utilization runs just shy of 100 hours per month. Do you have the NJA numbers handy? Can't speak to utilization over there but my rough division shows more than 6 pilots per aircraft at NJA. THAT is higher productivity.

If I'm not mistaken (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) the bypass pay was implemented because of the seat lock issue. I wasn't here at the time of those negotiations so I won't go into the politics of that.

We ALL should get paid overtime for any time over 10 hours (for us it's now 12). Why they don't I have no clue.

In the interest of fair disclosure NJA only gets the 21 days off for vacation 3 times a year after you go over 6 year pay.

I'm not privy to the utilization charts, but there are enough middle and upper management types that troll on here, and they would be more than happy to give you those numbers.

 

[Fracster]

We ALL should get paid overtime for any time over 10 hours (for us it's now 12).
Why they don't I have no clue.

Why you ask? The 5 former members of the MEC who epitomize corruption. It all starts from the top and Dave V. was the furthest in the pocket!

 

[hydrarkt]

Why you ask? The 5 former members of the MEC who epitomize corruption. It all starts from the top and Dave V. was the furthest in the pocket!

One reason why they are the FORMER MEC. We kicked them out kicking and screaming. It was their extreme stupidity and underestimation of the pilots who they were supposed to be representing that got them kicked in the ass. Good riddance.

 

[semperfido]

Keep dreaming. It will be done. Just do all of us a favor. When you are over here and are someone's FO, just do your job and get the papers, ice, coffee, catering and clearance and let us know when it's done.

Repeat after me.....STAPLE, STAPLE, STAPLE

grasshopper--do you always emit negative energy? that is one nasty case of bad karma you have going there. you need to rely on yourself , instead of some union lawyer's mumbo jumbo.

 

[Fracster]

I really couldnt give two sh!ts what happens to the NJI pilots. Staple, DOH, whatever. All I want is the Gulfstreams. There arent enough of them to make a huge difference in upgrading. Realisticly, their intergration would maybe slow someones upgrade by a few months.

I know I wont be here for it but I would love to see a picture of Richard Santulli the day the court system rules in favor of the single carrier lawsuit. Priceless. That a$$hole gives my people a bad name!

 

[WGFP48]

There hasn't been a single carrier filing in the past 30 years that has been successful!! And the IBT has not filed one yet! And RTS will not give NJI to NJA! So you are the one smoking rope here!!!