Commuting under attack because of crash

[doh]

They cant tell you what to do on your off time..Do pilots with young kids get a nice quiet night of sleep. With a new born you might get maybe 5 or 6 hours of sleep, alot less than some long commuter flights. I guess the FAA will require pilots to stop having kids, so they can get sleep..they only way to get better rested pilots is to have shorter duty days//

And longer rest periods. At the frac they have to give us 10 hours of rest. It makes a world of difference, as does the 14 hour day. Yes, they can push to 16 hours, but the way we are scheduled it has only happened to me once in 2.5 years.

 

[RJLoser]

Commuting pilots who fly for commuter airlines cannot afford the luxury of jumpseating to work. Put safety first, ahead of the ideology that flying to work is a luxury. It is neither glamorous nor safe for a young pilot flying 6-8 legs over a 14-16 hour duty day to be jeapordizing public safety.
Tough decisions have to be made...make them for yourself or they'll have to be made for you.

Did you commute flying the 1900, CL-65 or your 6 leg days in the 9 "CRASHPAD"?

 

[Raoul Duke]

Preventing and enforcing no-commuting isn't practical or feasible. Lets start with the rest and duty times. No more 16 hour duty days; keep it at 12 hours. None of this reduced rest BS. There should be a minimum of 12 hours for rest. Think from your release time to the time you get home or to the hotel and then when you have to get up again, shower, drive to the airport, etc. With all that you still barely get 8 hours of sleep sometimes. 12 hours minimum, period, no reduced rest.

You are missing the point, companies will enact these policies so that when something happens they can say we have this great policy against commutting, the crew ignored our policies and look what happened. This will turn everythng back onto pilots

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Don't they have to redefine rest? Rest is simply free from obligation to the company, isn't it? You can do what you want with your rest.

One of the classes in every Law school in America is "Legislative Law." Hundreds upon thousand of prospective lawyers take classes on how to write laws/regulations that accomplish a certain goal. Many of these people never pass the Bar exam, but nevertheless are employed in government positions. Commuting would be an easy thing to attack. How about this:

"For purposes of this section, 'rest' does not include the time spent by a pilot commuting to his/her domicile."

Let's be for real. The FO commuted from SEA to EWR! the night before an accident in which 50 people died. There is no way to stop them from regulating your "rest" if the political will exists.

 

[skiandsurf]

Werent these two pilots starting a trip from days off? so, 8hrs or 10 hrs of rest doesnt apply.

Was this flight their first flight of the day (1 leg/day)?


Or had they been flying all day (flying their 6th flight of the day)?

 

[Bluestreak]

There is more to fatigue than commuting.How about 4 day trips with 4:15AM show times every day that duty out after 5PM ? If you live say,20 minutes from the airport,you have to leave your house at 3:30AM,just to park,get through security,etc.So you got up at,say 3AM ? How alert are you around 5PM ? Legally,you could duty out at 8:15PM ! The FAA is in the airlines' pocket.How else do you explain stuff like reduced rest and lap children ? "Circadian rythm ? What's that ?"

 

[skiandsurf]

There is more to fatigue than commuting.How about 4 day trips with 4:15AM show times every day that duty out after 5PM ? If you live say,20 minutes from the airport,you have to leave your house at 3:30AM,just to park,get through security,etc.So you got up at,say 3AM ? How alert are you around 5PM ? Legally,you could duty out at 8:15PM ! The FAA is in the airlines' pocket.How else do you explain stuff like reduced rest and lap children ? "Circadian rythm ? What's that ?"

In an effort to increase safety and reduce fatigue, all airlines will change their schedules. No flights will leave before 10am, and all flights will be on the ground by 9pm.

With this reduced schedule, the airlines will be laying off 30% of the work force.

This, all in the best interest of safety.

 

[Bluestreak]

In an effort to increase safety and reduce fatigue, all airlines will change their schedules. No flights will leave before 10am, and all flights will be on the ground by 9pm.

With this reduced schedule, the airlines will be laying off 30% of the work force.

This, all in the best interest of safety.

No,just issuing a notam when you fly would be better.

 

[Dannone]

Maybe if the guyswas so tired, he would have stopped talikng for maybe 30 seconds, or maybe he wouldn't have had the strength to pull so hard when stalling. Crew rest is not the issue. Sharp, coordinated, talented people are not going into flying anymore because the pay sucks!! Why does American soccer not succed? All the talented kids that play soccer when they are little realize they will get more attention if they play football or basketball. You think people are going to continue to pay $100,000 above the cost of college to make $20,000? Pay must go up or this will continue to be a problem. Anyone notice how easy check rides are now? That is because people would continue to fail them. Pay is the problem!!!

 

[30West]

Commuting is already under attack by the TSA, and crews using the jumpseat as a political platform for making statements. Just saying.....

 

[bailout]

Werent these two pilots starting a trip from days off? so, 8hrs or 10 hrs of rest doesnt apply.

Thats the whole issue. It WILL apply. The language states you have to be able to prove rest before you fly a trip, as in Day one! This means YOUR off time, not rest in the middle of a trip pairing. This is why commuting is coming under attack.

 

[Fred Rogers]

So where do the sacrifices end? EVERYTHING effects your job performance. All of us are impacted by our personal lives away from the airplane. Money, kids, spouses, mistresses, car commutes, airplane commutes, relative drama... We have got to get the industry to accept that there will be times that we are simply unfit to fly. We need to have the balls and the ability to bag in when we aren't up to the task.

Agreed.

Also we could mitigate the personal stresses if we were paid more and were home more. I know it's more poetic for someone to work hard for nothing, but if the work was easy, plenty of time off, and you were paid like a king, do you think the airlines would have trouble finding the best and brightest? Do you think people would do their jobs to the best of their ability so they keep these excellent jobs?

Is it so horrible for someone to get paid a bunch and actually like their life?

wha what.. oh sorry, just woke up.

 

[CX880]

These threads are so pointless. First of all no monetary increase will happen as a result of this crash. No body has the authority to order more pay so that our qol may improve. With that said, we probably won't get anything that will cost the company either like accomodations before a trip for commuters. As far as the regulations, it's the FAA, who knows maybe this time with the pressure of congress they'll remake the regs that were made in the 50s. It's unfortunate that in near 2010 we are still making the same amount and working under the same conditions as 50 year ago.

 

[Fred Rogers]

These threads are so pointless.

I can't argue with that

 

[skiandsurf]

These threads are so pointless. First of all no monetary increase will happen as a result of this crash. No body has the authority to order more pay so that our qol may improve. With that said, we probably won't get anything that will cost the company either like accomodations before a trip for commuters. As far as the regulations, it's the FAA, who knows maybe this time with the pressure of congress they'll remake the regs that were made in the 50s. It's unfortunate that in near 2010 we are still making the same amount and working under the same conditions as 50 year ago.

I would argue that the working conditions are the same as 50 years ago. I think that Autopilot, TCAS, GPS, EGPWS, ATC, etc, are far better today than 50 years ago.

 

[doh]

I would argue that the working conditions are the same as 50 years ago. I think that Autopilot, TCAS, GPS, EGPWS, ATC, etc, are far better today than 50 years ago.

Are or aren't the same? Your post makes absolutely no sense. And if you mean aren't, what's your point?

 

[doh]

One of the classes in every Law school in America is "Legislative Law." Hundreds upon thousand of prospective lawyers take classes on how to write laws/regulations that accomplish a certain goal. Many of these people never pass the Bar exam, but nevertheless are employed in government positions. Commuting would be an easy thing to attack. How about this:

"For purposes of this section, 'rest' does not include the time spent by a pilot commuting to his/her domicile."

Let's be for real. The FO commuted from SEA to EWR! the night before an accident in which 50 people died. There is no way to stop them from regulating your "rest" if the political will exists.

Ed, you may be right about the language, but they will get anarchy if they try it. Think about it. You get notified that your base is closing and you will be based in X next month. Your wife says she will not move until the house sells and she can find a job. Or she just plain says she won't move. The company and the feds have backed you into a corner. The most dangerous people are people who got nothing to lose. When the feds take it all away...

 

[Jetpipeovht]

It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco

The fact that he lied is irrelevant. He and Colgan were responsible to sign off and receive his FAA training records from previous training. No one here remembers releasing their training records (PRIA)??

The data is there whether he lied or not. Colgan is just blaming him and not themselves.

 

[WayBack]

The fact that he lied is irrelevant. He and Colgan were responsible to sign off and receive his FAA training records from previous training. No one here remembers releasing their training records (PRIA)??

The data is there whether he lied or not. Colgan is just blaming him and not themselves.

Do your checkrides from part 61 and 141 appear on PRIAs?

 

[Jetpipeovht]

Do your checkrides from part 61 and 141 appear on PRIAs?

I am inclined to say no. I am not 100% sure.

Just training history from a previous employer. The FAA database on the other hand has everything.

 

[doh]

Do your checkrides from part 61 and 141 appear on PRIAs?

Colgan is solely responsible for the validity of his training records. If he was still alive, he would be answerable for some of it. But, umm, well, err, where ever he is, he doesn't care about his training records.

 

[Talian]

As a commuter myself for years on end, I know how hard it can be. However, I feel as commuters we have adequate control over the situation. We choose when to commute in. I have commuted in as late as possible many times, but I also have enough sense to look at my first couple days of a trip and see whether or not I begin with a 5 leg day or a 2 leg day, and see how much rest I will get on the first night. Also, staying in the crew room or shelling out for a hotel/crash pad is another choice I make. If you are a commuter, you know how the current system works. You have to decide how much rest and of what quality rest you get before a trip. Awake for 20 hours the day before a trip to catch the last flight into base, only to sleep 5 hours in a recliner in uniform, to wake up and fly a 12 hour duty day in marginal weather? It may get you another dinner with the family, but as we have seen you may never get another dinner at home again. It all comes down to risk management.

What normally saves us is the two pilot cockpit. Rarely have I had a trip where both the other pilot and myself started off the trip equally behind the ball. One of us is rested, and I never let myself get too tired to begin with.

Bases close frequently, and it is unreasonable to expect a pilot to move every year at the company's whim, even if moving expenses are paid. If the company closes a base you have been in for more than 2 months, I feel that then (and only then), you should be entitled to deadhead flights to your new base.

Commuting across the country is a luxury that very few others enjoy. We are spoiled, and we act entitled to this freedom. We take these jobs knowing that we will have to commute. I even know of people who commute from South America and Europe, and think that is okay!! At the same time, the company needs to recognize that they need to pay us enough to live in or near base. Commuting is forced on enough of us to make it a legitimate part of the job.

Seem like I am rambling without a point? I am. This issue is too complex to regulate, and too complex to solve via union contract. Nothing will change. The unions won't let the company determine when we commute or where we can commute from, and the company won't alter their schedules to reflect the huge range of commutes people undertake.

You make alot of good points but as a pilot who would love to work for a regional and even be content there as a career the pay is the main reason I can never even consider doing it.
I have never flown 121 or commuted for any job so I don't know first hand, but I just don't understand how you guys do it day in and day out.
I work very hard labor in the swimming pool industry in Arizona. I started my own business a few years ago and now enjoy vacations to where I want, when I want, and make as much as if not more than the most senior Captains at the Majors. This being said I would sell my business and be content to fly for a living if the rates were even enough to live on.
I know other pilots who have left flying and feel the same way that I do.
Maybe something productive will come out of the Colgan tragedy and the airline business might gain recognition as the professional business it deserves.

 

[WayBack]

I am inclined to say no. I am not 100% sure.

Just training history from a previous employer. The FAA database on the other hand has everything.

Ok, because I thought he failed 3 during his 141 training at GIA and then the other 2 at Colgan. Right???

 

[doh]

Isn't that 141 schyt flight school? That is not a PC as such, so why would that have to be reported? Or am I misunderstanding this stuff? I am straight up part 61 and I had 500 multi/0 hours instructing when I got my first job so I don't know a lot about the puppy mills.

 

[Mickey]

If pilots didn't commute into expensive bases, airlines would have to raise the pay until they could hire pilots who live in the base. Think about it.

 

[WayBack]

If pilots didn't commute into expensive bases, airlines would have to raise the pay until they could hire pilots who live in the base. Think about it.

They will always find someone who is willing to commute or that lives near base to hire. Regionals/Majors will never raise the pay because of that.

 

[Jetpipeovht]

Isn't that 141 schyt flight school? That is not a PC as such, so why would that have to be reported? Or am I misunderstanding this stuff? I am straight up part 61 and I had 500 multi/0 hours instructing when I got my first job so I don't know a lot about the puppy mills.

PT 141 is not a puppy mill. It's a training syllabus. 0 time to COMM/ME/INST in one back to back syllabus for your licenses. A school has to meet certain requirements to obtain a PT141 certificate.

PT 61 is a more relaxed syllabus than 141 when it comes to time line but same result. A bust in either case is logged in the FAA database. It is not reported as for PRIA purposes but you have to disclose it if the employer requires it.

A PT121.441 is a PC, well I am sure you know that one. Those become part of your training records for PRIA. At least that is how I understand it.

 

[Jetpipeovht]

Ok, because I thought he failed 3 during his 141 training at GIA and then the other 2 at Colgan. Right???

I don't know. I am not following the findings.

 

[FO 4 Life]

I think PRIA is only sent to former employers. You're at a 141 school training so I wouldn't think PRIA would apply.

 

[pilotyip]

correct

I think PRIA is only sent to former employers. You're at a 141 school training so I wouldn't think PRIA would apply.

Former air carrier employers within the last five years.