Commuting under attack because of crash

[l8fr82hub]

The loss of two human beings is ALWAYS a tragedy.

Don't forget about the fifty lives in back.

 

[skiandsurf]

I spent yrs commuting cross country. Red-eyes to work.

Best one was commuting (jumpseating) in on the red-eye (LAX-IAD), on an American Airlines DC10. After we get to IAD at 5am, I have to fly the 630am flight to JFK.....Guess who is on my flight...??..The AA DC10 crew. They had a scheduled deadhead on UEX.

It was a little awkward at the time.


****

(and this new format sucks !!!!! )

 

[firstthird]

Don't forget about the fifty lives in back.

No kidding. It is our job to keep them safe.

 

[bigshooter107]

Lol!!!!!

i think the answer, and i won't be holding my breath on this one, is to use the netjets model: Crewmember lives where he wants to and the company deadheads him to the point that his trip starts. The benefit to the company is that they can start trips wherever they want to, not just in a hub.

Make all carriers comply so that no carrier has a cost advantage over another. Commute time would be part of duty time. A side benefit would be that the company wouldn't want to pay for many commutes, so they would start building efficient trips. Instead of 4 commutes a month we would likely see 2. There would probably be a 7 on, 7 off type program. People that reside in domicile could make themselves available for extra flying.

For a carrier such as crumbair, trips wouldn't necessarily start in cvg or jfnk. Trips could start in bos or pvd or bna or lga or any where the company desires.

The airlines will moan and groan that this costs too much, but crews are already flying around the country quite a bit on other company's airplane to get to work. They could work out a cooperative mechanism where they would trade seats (positive space) on each other's aircraft. It needn't cost the airlines anything.

The problem that i can foresee is that given a choice of living in williston, nd or orlando, most pilots would choose the warm place. There could be some bottlenecks.

So there's your solution. We can always dream...

 

[samballs]

It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco

I have been displaced to three different bases, in 5 years. Also since the new design of this board is crap, I put the first part of your tale in bold

 

[Raoul Duke]

I think you will see carriers intentionally build trips that are not commutable to force pilots to get a hotel room the night before.

 

[rtmcfi]

I think you will see carriers intentionally build trips that are not commutable to force pilots to get a hotel room the night before.

I disagree, unless the FAA somehow mandates it. Most airlines simply could not function without commuters. There are not enough pilots that want to or can afford to live in base. Like it or not, the airlines need commuters.

 

[Papa Woody]

How do we know that the pilot pulled back on the yoke?

Because the same people who told us the AA 587 F/O slammed the rudder pedals from stop-to-stop 6 times and snapped off the tail said so!

 

[Fubijaakr]

I anticipate there will be an NPRM regarding commuting. Tonight, I'm in a hotel room at my own cost due to an early departure. Sure, I could have gotten up at 3 am, commuted and then flown a transcon.

But, its neither smart or safe.

If you CHOOSE to commute, you have to sometimes suck up a hotel room OR get a crash pad. But, its your CHOICE. You still have the responsibility to show up rested and ready to work.

 

[dh82dvr]

When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x,

I agree that you know that you will be paid x, however you may wish to based in x, but you could get y or z or a,b or c depending on how many bases there are. When I was at the regional I was based in 6 different crew bases over 5+ years. I'm sure the wife and kids would have enjoyed moving that often.

 

[Medeco]

All great points!

I too, commuted for 1.5 yrs. I understand. I am at ASA where we have had the DFW/SLC/LAX debacle. I understand.

There is no clear answer on any of this, but I do like the suggestion of if you hired into or lived in a base for x amount of time, then you get DH and hotel rights to the new base. This is only fair and safe.

I have seen alot of complacency in pilots of both seats regardless of pay. We as professionals have a moral responsibility to use proper judgment when we take the controls.

Additionally, a company has a moral responsibility to the employees and the passengers to run an operation that allows the crews to not feel pressured if the fatigue factor comes into play. With this said, all companies will say they already have this policy, but we all know that the unspoken pressure is there.

At ASA, we are under great pressure to complete flights due to the wrath of mother Delta. I recently heard that BH (president of ASA) has called in pilots to his office to get to the bottom of why a flight was not completed.

Proper rest is essential to a safe flight, and if we can control it, then we need to step up and ensure we do all we can.

Medeco

 

[CA1900]

Ask CA1900 if he thinks commuting is an option - (Hi buddy!!!) - I think he set a record for closing bases during his tenure at a regional.

:laugh: The grim freakin' reaper, I think they called me. I had people actually offer to pay me not to switch to their domicile because they knew it would close within mere months if I did.

For some perspective, my airline closed thirteen crew bases between the day I was hired and the day I left. I was based at seven of them. And not a single one of those airports is still a crew base.

So I kind of chuckle at anyone who suggests you "just live at your base," especially at a low-end regional that changes them every couple of months.

 

[doh]

It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco

Gosh, I couldn't agree more! I got hired into Orlando! They can't throw me out and bring in brand x, because I knew I would be based at Orlando! Right? That comment wins the tool quote of the weak (spelling intentional)!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Because the same people who told us the AA 587 F/O slammed the rudder pedals from stop-to-stop 6 times and snapped off the tail said so!

And you disagree with their finding on this point for what reason, exactly??? I'm curious....

 

[Crash Pad]

First on the commute. "Yeah I don't want to live in Newark so I'm going to live in Seattle. Oh and in the next contract can you make some rule, that if I don't make it to work because I'm flying standby from seattle, that we can just have the 4 days off. One more thing. When I come into work I'm going to complain about my commute to anyone who will listen for the first hour of every trip. The reason I do this is because I hate Newark and my quality of life is so much better in Seattle."

Did anyone use that sweet line in there interview?

Listen here commuters. We all know if airlines decide to fix commuting that they will do it by taking away the jump seat and travel bennies. They aren't going to tack on your commute to the duty day, pay you for the deadhead, or base you in San Diego because you like to surf on your days off.

So if anyone asks (I had some guy from the NYT grab me in ATL yesterday)... the commute is fine. You are always well rested when you show up to work. etc... Don't screw this up for the rest of us who enjoy our travel bennies.... Oh yeah and this is the best thing you can do... STOP CRASHING AIRPLANES AFTER THE COMMUTE.

 

[Medeco]

Gosh, I couldn't agree more! I got hired into Orlando! They can't throw me out and bring in brand x, because I knew I would be based at Orlando! Right? That comment wins the tool quote of the weak (spelling intentional)!

Huh?

Try again to explain that one, I can't read the rest of the thoughts in your head that you left out.

I did not call anyone names, I just said we as pilots have a responsibility to the people affected by our actions, regardless of the circumstances.

Equally the company has an obligation, that has been slowly thrown out the window, due to pressure to turn out a profit.

Medeco

 

[ace6453]

I too, commuted for 1.5 yrs. I understand. I am at ASA where we have had the DFW/SLC/LAX debacle. I understand.

There is no clear answer on any of this, but I do like the suggestion of if you hired into or lived in a base for x amount of time, then you get DH and hotel rights to the new base. This is only fair and safe.

I have seen alot of complacency in pilots of both seats regardless of pay. We as professionals have a moral responsibility to use proper judgment when we take the controls.

Additionally, a company has a moral responsibility to the employees and the passengers to run an operation that allows the crews to not feel pressured if the fatigue factor comes into play. With this said, all companies will say they already have this policy, but we all know that the unspoken pressure is there.

At ASA, we are under great pressure to complete flights due to the wrath of mother Delta. I recently heard that BH (president of ASA) has called in pilots to his office to get to the bottom of why a flight was not completed.

Proper rest is essential to a safe flight, and if we can control it, then we need to step up and ensure we do all we can.

Medeco

Really??? To really find out why the flight didn't go, or to intimidate pilots?

 

[doh]

It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco

I'll try again. I got hired into Orlando. My base got turned over to another company. I commuted because my wife could not relocate. Using your statement "you know you will be based in x" means they can't close my base? Or do I no longer have a "personal responsibility" because I didn't ask for the CVG job? Your statement does not take into account the reality of many pilots lives. The implication is certainly that things will remain static, or that we can instantly relocate. At the least, you could acknowledge that at current pay, most pilots can't afford to pay rent and a mortgage if they are forced to change bases. Real estate is not selling right now, so that claps a stopper over moving for alot of pilots. Clear now?

 

[Medeco]

doh

Yep, it is clear now and I made another statement earlier that I agree it is different when the base changes after you have been there for a while.

The issue is complex and not fixed with one answer.

Medeco

 

[Medeco]

Really??? To really find out why the flight didn't go, or to intimidate pilots?

That is what I was told by someone who is in the GO a good bit. The reason is to get o the bottom of an issue and take out the middle men, but it is intimidating no matter the reason when the president asks to see you in his office.

He could simply read the RIF we are required to fill out.

And, no I have not been called in.

Medeco