Commuting under attack because of crash

[Medeco]

All great points!

I too, commuted for 1.5 yrs. I understand. I am at ASA where we have had the DFW/SLC/LAX debacle. I understand.

There is no clear answer on any of this, but I do like the suggestion of if you hired into or lived in a base for x amount of time, then you get DH and hotel rights to the new base. This is only fair and safe.

I have seen alot of complacency in pilots of both seats regardless of pay. We as professionals have a moral responsibility to use proper judgment when we take the controls.

Additionally, a company has a moral responsibility to the employees and the passengers to run an operation that allows the crews to not feel pressured if the fatigue factor comes into play. With this said, all companies will say they already have this policy, but we all know that the unspoken pressure is there.

At ASA, we are under great pressure to complete flights due to the wrath of mother Delta. I recently heard that BH (president of ASA) has called in pilots to his office to get to the bottom of why a flight was not completed.

Proper rest is essential to a safe flight, and if we can control it, then we need to step up and ensure we do all we can.

Medeco

 

[CA1900]

Ask CA1900 if he thinks commuting is an option - (Hi buddy!!!) - I think he set a record for closing bases during his tenure at a regional.

:laugh: The grim freakin' reaper, I think they called me. I had people actually offer to pay me not to switch to their domicile because they knew it would close within mere months if I did.

For some perspective, my airline closed thirteen crew bases between the day I was hired and the day I left. I was based at seven of them. And not a single one of those airports is still a crew base.

So I kind of chuckle at anyone who suggests you "just live at your base," especially at a low-end regional that changes them every couple of months.

 

[doh]

It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco

Gosh, I couldn't agree more! I got hired into Orlando! They can't throw me out and bring in brand x, because I knew I would be based at Orlando! Right? That comment wins the tool quote of the weak (spelling intentional)!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Because the same people who told us the AA 587 F/O slammed the rudder pedals from stop-to-stop 6 times and snapped off the tail said so!

And you disagree with their finding on this point for what reason, exactly??? I'm curious....

 

[Crash Pad]

First on the commute. "Yeah I don't want to live in Newark so I'm going to live in Seattle. Oh and in the next contract can you make some rule, that if I don't make it to work because I'm flying standby from seattle, that we can just have the 4 days off. One more thing. When I come into work I'm going to complain about my commute to anyone who will listen for the first hour of every trip. The reason I do this is because I hate Newark and my quality of life is so much better in Seattle."

Did anyone use that sweet line in there interview?

Listen here commuters. We all know if airlines decide to fix commuting that they will do it by taking away the jump seat and travel bennies. They aren't going to tack on your commute to the duty day, pay you for the deadhead, or base you in San Diego because you like to surf on your days off.

So if anyone asks (I had some guy from the NYT grab me in ATL yesterday)... the commute is fine. You are always well rested when you show up to work. etc... Don't screw this up for the rest of us who enjoy our travel bennies.... Oh yeah and this is the best thing you can do... STOP CRASHING AIRPLANES AFTER THE COMMUTE.

 

[Medeco]

Gosh, I couldn't agree more! I got hired into Orlando! They can't throw me out and bring in brand x, because I knew I would be based at Orlando! Right? That comment wins the tool quote of the weak (spelling intentional)!

Huh?

Try again to explain that one, I can't read the rest of the thoughts in your head that you left out.

I did not call anyone names, I just said we as pilots have a responsibility to the people affected by our actions, regardless of the circumstances.

Equally the company has an obligation, that has been slowly thrown out the window, due to pressure to turn out a profit.

Medeco

 

[ace6453]

I too, commuted for 1.5 yrs. I understand. I am at ASA where we have had the DFW/SLC/LAX debacle. I understand.

There is no clear answer on any of this, but I do like the suggestion of if you hired into or lived in a base for x amount of time, then you get DH and hotel rights to the new base. This is only fair and safe.

I have seen alot of complacency in pilots of both seats regardless of pay. We as professionals have a moral responsibility to use proper judgment when we take the controls.

Additionally, a company has a moral responsibility to the employees and the passengers to run an operation that allows the crews to not feel pressured if the fatigue factor comes into play. With this said, all companies will say they already have this policy, but we all know that the unspoken pressure is there.

At ASA, we are under great pressure to complete flights due to the wrath of mother Delta. I recently heard that BH (president of ASA) has called in pilots to his office to get to the bottom of why a flight was not completed.

Proper rest is essential to a safe flight, and if we can control it, then we need to step up and ensure we do all we can.

Medeco

Really??? To really find out why the flight didn't go, or to intimidate pilots?

 

[doh]

It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco

I'll try again. I got hired into Orlando. My base got turned over to another company. I commuted because my wife could not relocate. Using your statement "you know you will be based in x" means they can't close my base? Or do I no longer have a "personal responsibility" because I didn't ask for the CVG job? Your statement does not take into account the reality of many pilots lives. The implication is certainly that things will remain static, or that we can instantly relocate. At the least, you could acknowledge that at current pay, most pilots can't afford to pay rent and a mortgage if they are forced to change bases. Real estate is not selling right now, so that claps a stopper over moving for alot of pilots. Clear now?

 

[Medeco]

doh

Yep, it is clear now and I made another statement earlier that I agree it is different when the base changes after you have been there for a while.

The issue is complex and not fixed with one answer.

Medeco

 

[Medeco]

Really??? To really find out why the flight didn't go, or to intimidate pilots?

That is what I was told by someone who is in the GO a good bit. The reason is to get o the bottom of an issue and take out the middle men, but it is intimidating no matter the reason when the president asks to see you in his office.

He could simply read the RIF we are required to fill out.

And, no I have not been called in.

Medeco

 

[CX880]

From what I have heard and read, commuting is going to become alot harder in the future, they are going to monitor us much more closely and ADD IT TO OUR DUTY DAY and we will not get paid for it (of course).

Alot more trips will become uncommutable.

You will be stuck coming in the night before, and paying for a hotel room on your own dime.

Nice career

DON"T DO IT get out!!!!! I hope they put restrictions to commuting. I don't want to be in an airplane where the FO was living it up 24 hours ago on top of a mountain on the other side of the continental united states. And a CA well..... what hasn't already been said about him? The salaries have been going down for years and yet pilots still show up. I wonder what's going to happen when they force you to move to base? Nothing they'll still show up.

 

[doh]

I wouldn't mind them putting restrictions on commuting, as long as they put restrictions on base closures. Let's see, management is obligated to but your house for it's appraised value. You get to pick the appraiser. Management has to pay for your move. Management has to compensate your spouse for loss of income and benefits, if any. My wife, for example, has a defined benefit pension. We move and management has to continue that. Then and only then can management dictate where and when we move.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I expect the FAA to be issuing an NPRM that will require Part 121/135 pilots to keep a personal logbook of their rest periods prior to a duty day. This is necessary to assure pilot crew doesn’t dead head in the day of their trips. Truckers do this now so this is logical for pilots too. It's all necessary to protect the public against those who abuse the trust placed in them by coming to work exhausted by travel. Unfortunately that is the norm now days. Commuting is a living hell for everyone but its the innocent public who has had paid the price for this state of the industry.

 

[tyuwerty]

Listen here commuters. We all know if airlines decide to fix commuting that they will do it by taking away the jump seat and travel bennies. They aren't going to tack on your commute to the duty day, pay you for the deadhead, or base you in San Diego because you like to surf on your days off.

Finally someone gets it..................

Look for more restrictions, because you won't be getting more benefits when it is all said and done.

With the stroke of a Legislator's pen, jumpseating is gone.

 

[doh]

I expect the FAA to be issuing an NPRM that will require Part 121/135 pilots to keep a personal logbook of their rest periods prior to a duty day. This is necessary to assure pilot crew doesn’t dead head in the day of their trips. Truckers do this now so this is logical for pilots too. It's all necessary to protect the public against those who abuse the trust placed in them by coming to work exhausted by travel. Unfortunately that is the norm now days. Commuting is a living hell for everyone but its the innocent public who has had paid the price for this state of the industry.

I am all for setting trucker rules for pilots! 12 hour max duty day and 12 hour min rest! Also, don't truckers have to keep a log for all their trips?

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Commuting sux but sometimes thats the only way to "make it work". Bases open and close and relative seniority goes up and down(who am I kidding it usually just goes down) with furloughs every 5 years. I hate commuting but it is essential. Companies may start trying to weed out the "potential commuters" in the hiring process. Hell they already do. But you seriously can't expect a guy to move into the first base you give to him. Its probably not his first choice. Especially if you offer a measly $16,700/year with no medical insurance, and 2 moving days. WE NEED THE NETJETS BASING SYSTEM. 100 CITIES TO CHOOSE FROM. Sure its expensive, but so is living in Jersey. I hope Netjets would consider interviewing me again.:bawling:

 

[buscap]

I wouldn't mind them putting restrictions on commuting, as long as they put restrictions on base closures. Let's see, management is obligated to but your house for it's appraised value. You get to pick the appraiser. Management has to pay for your move. Management has to compensate your spouse for loss of income and benefits, if any. My wife, for example, has a defined benefit pension. We move and management has to continue that. Then and only then can management dictate where and when we move.

Put down the pipe!!!

You'll flunk your next pee-test!!!

Good Lord people!!

Personal responsibility!!!

New words to everyone on this board. Look them up in the dictionary you immature whiners!!

If life is so miserable at the regionals, get out. Turn yourself into that perfect job candidate that your dream airline wants to hire. Don't bust any rides. Wear your hat. Get into the training department. Whatever it takes.

Do whatever it takes to get out of the minor leagues. Now after you've done all those things and you still can't get out, well then just suck it up and be the best darn regional pilot known to man. And maybe get involved in your union and do something about fixing these problems.

But no matter what, quit this freaki'n whining. The schedules, bases and pay were all known when we got into the industry. Can we all look in the mirror and say we did everthing possible to get hired at a major? Did we all get that 737 type?



People died because pilots didn't pilot.

Why aren't we reading posts about reforming our training programs? Perhaps making them harder? Maybe taking away the union's ability to protect dirtbags?

Funny how that one hasn't come up here.

 

[aeropharoh]

let them try to do away with commuting and we will have a real problem. IE pilot shortage and even sleepier pilots b/c now they are driving 4 hours before a trip to get there instead of flying 30 mins.

 

[dispatchguy]

Fix the fatigue problem
- Eliminate CDOs, nap trips, whatever you want to call them. If you leave the airport property, you are off duty; period. I think CDOs should be illegal.
- Make the 8 hours of "rest" 8 in the hotel, period. Non-negotiable.
- Personally, after 12-14 hours of duty, my brain is tired. I did a 20 hour day once working 121 dispatch (unscheduled, so it was legal), and my brain was so fried that driving home I didnt feel that safe; repetitive 16 hour dutys arent safe as well - but we all know that what is legal isnt necessarily safe.

Like others have said, this is the news cycle topic du jour, but once some stupid celebu-skank does something super stupid, we'll return to our regularly scheduled diet of junk-food-TV

And no, nothing will change.

 

[DX Rick]

I am all for setting trucker rules for pilots! 12 hour max duty day and 12 hour min rest! Also, don't truckers have to keep a log for all their trips?

Get real, truckers are truckers and we're Railway Laborers!

I don't see much coming of this either, but hopefully we can get a possitive space seat out of this.
If that were to happen, it would eliminate the crew member sitting in the terminal all day trying to catch a flight....or trying to comply with the commute clause in the contract.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I fully expect that a result of this will be a personal log of rest prior to any duty period. Rest will be defined to include no more than 2-hours of travel. This change will greatly improve a pilot's qualilty of life.

Once in the past the airlines maintained "dog houses" in the hangars for crews to sleep. They were actually quite nice with clean beds. Maybe the dog houses will make a comeback.

 

[DX Rick]

I fully expect that a result of this will be a personal log of rest prior to any duty period. Rest will be defined to include no more than 2-hours of travel. This change will greatly improve a pilot's qualilty of life.

Once in the past the airlines maintained "dog houses" in the hangars for crews to sleep. They were actually quite nice with clean beds. Maybe the dog houses will make a comeback.

Are you kidding me? Airlines won't even hand out crew meals, to keep turn times to a minimum. But they're going to set up beds with clean bedding for free?
I sleep in the crew room and been hearing how they're going to crack down on the guys sleeping in there. There are 10-15 pilots/FA's sleeping in there on a given night. They're not going to allow us to sleep on the couches that are already there, the company won't spend a dime on a beds.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Are you kidding me? Airlines won't even hand out crew meals, to keep turn times to a minimum. But they're going to set up beds with clean bedding for free?
I sleep in the crew room and been hearing how they're going to crack down on the guys sleeping in there. There are 10-15 pilots/FA's sleeping in there on a given night. They're not going to allow us to sleep on the couches that are already there, the company won't spend a dime on a beds.

You make a good point about the way things are now; and, now the result is known. We all tried to tell management that crew rest was a runaway freight train that could only result in disaster. I’m really surprised something like this hasn’t happened before to exhausted crews. The airlines have brought this accident on themselves by disincentives for crew rest. What is needed is FAA regulatory changes to be certain crews are well rested. Once this becomes law the associated expenses will be the same for all airlines, just like requiring radar, TCAS etc.

I hope the bean counters realize the result of their work and accept their rightful blame in this accident. .

 

[DX Rick]

You make a good point about the way things are now; and, now the result is known. We all tried to tell management that crew rest was a runaway freight train that could only result in disaster. I’m really surprised something like this hasn’t happened before to exhausted crews. The airlines have brought this accident on themselves by disincentives for crew rest. What is needed is FAA regulatory changes to be certain crews are well rested. Once this becomes law the associated expenses will be the same for all airlines, just like requiring radar, TCAS etc.

I hope the bean counters realize the result of their work and accept their rightful blame in this accident. .

It has happened before, but nothing was brought out of it.
The most recent time was the Corporate Express 5966 in Kirksville, MO.

The safety issues in this report focus on operational and human factors issues, including the pilots’ professionalism and sterile cockpit procedures, nonprecision instrument approach procedures, flight and duty time regulations, fatigue, and flight data/image recorder requirements.

The same can be said here. What they will do is kick the dead crew because they're not here to defend themselves and the airline (in their eyes) does everything to safest extent possible....Even the FAA says it's safe working 16 hours and only getting 8 hours of REST.
The airline will admitt no wrong doing, and the FAA will stand by it's regs, saying that it's adequate rest.
Duty time and rest has been the same since the late 60's. I don't think this is going to change it.
It's be nice though, some of the furloughed guys might be getting called back if they had to actually staff the airline properly.

 

[makersmarc]

5 characters

 

[doh]

Put down the pipe!!!

You'll flunk your next pee-test!!!

Good Lord people!!

Personal responsibility!!!

New words to everyone on this board. Look them up in the dictionary you immature whiners!!

If life is so miserable at the regionals, get out. Turn yourself into that perfect job candidate that your dream airline wants to hire. Don't bust any rides. Wear your hat. Get into the training department. Whatever it takes.

Do whatever it takes to get out of the minor leagues. Now after you've done all those things and you still can't get out, well then just suck it up and be the best darn regional pilot known to man. And maybe get involved in your union and do something about fixing these problems.

But no matter what, quit this freaki'n whining. The schedules, bases and pay were all known when we got into the industry. Can we all look in the mirror and say we did everthing possible to get hired at a major? Did we all get that 737 type?



People died because pilots didn't pilot.

Why aren't we reading posts about reforming our training programs? Perhaps making them harder? Maybe taking away the union's ability to protect dirtbags?

Funny how that one hasn't come up here.

I do have my dream job at Flexjet. The whole point of the "pilots didn't pilot" is fatigue. Fix that and the rest will follow.

As a side question, why didn't Colgan see that the captain had failed three PCs? Don't they do a PRIA?

 

[DX Rick]

As a side question, why didn't Colgan see that the captain had failed three PCs? Don't they do a PRIA?

Because in todays society no one fails anymore. No more "F's" are handed out, they're all "H's" for HELP.
And and GIA, NO ONE is a failure. They're ALL winners!

 

[doh]

I didn't realise he was GIA. There are too many threads out there to follow. I missed that.

 

[JA PILOT]

As far as I am concerned and in my opinion, Colgan management exploited and Murdered that girl and those passengers and it all cost them $16,0000 a year to do it.
Its a shame that America will never realize the truth until some of these executives heads start to roll.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Just move to your base. Or get a new job.