Commuting under attack because of crash

[Superpilot92]

Ya had me, begrudgingly, then ya lost me.

Hypothetically, let's say I was an AirWiskey fella hired and based in Denver, where I made my home. Things are cool on the old Avro for quite some time. Then the entire airline packed up and moved east! I'm not ready to commute to PHL or ORF, and I'm not willing to take a severe paycut (because I know X and X) to remain near DEN. WTF are you saying?

Bases CLOSE. Move? I didn't choose this, it was imposed by the retards that have a "right" to make a profit.

The point is that not everyone fits into your sentiment seamlessly.

Agreed! We are in the transportation business and things change. This isnt a job that has an office building or permanent headquarters that we as pilots all show up to. In the normal business world sure you have a job thats located typically in a city and that usually doesnt change but not in this business. Our jobs change locations ALL the time, whether your company opens or closes a base or you change companies, upgrade to a different base, downgrade to a different base, merge with another company, furlough, etc. No company in the country would require you to move you and your family everytime something changed like that.

 

[NEDude]

If a major move of bases was a rare an infrequent thing, and airlines did what most companies do and paid a COLA based on your domicile, I could see the argument against commuting. In many professional jobs you have to up and move to follow your company. My cousin, an executive with Cisco Systems, has moved twice in the last four years, and we are talking major international moves - San Francisco Bay area to Paris and now Paris to London. But he is paid well, the company paid entirely for the moves, and he gets COLA bonuses based on where he is living.

Airlines for the most part pay poorly compared to other "professional" type jobs, regionals espescially. Benefits are mediocre. There is almost never a COLA based on domicile, and if you are forced to move, the company often has some pretty harsh limits on what they will pay for. And as mentioned before, domiciles open, close, grow and shrink at the whim of beancounters.

Ask CA1900 if he thinks commuting is an option - (Hi buddy!!!) - I think he set a record for closing bases during his tenure at a regional.

Seriously though at the regional level, espescially as a first officer, this would be like regularly moving your family for a job at McDonalds. Actually no, starting pay at McDonalds you would probably make more.

 

[AMANSWORLD]

From what I have heard and read, commuting is going to become alot harder in the future, they are going to monitor us much more closely and ADD IT TO OUR DUTY DAY and we will not get paid for it (of course).

Alot more trips will become uncommutable.

You will be stuck coming in the night before, and paying for a hotel room on your own dime.

Nice career

Won't happen.

 

[Minimaniac]

As a commuter myself for years on end, I know how hard it can be. However, I feel as commuters we have adequate control over the situation. We choose when to commute in. I have commuted in as late as possible many times, but I also have enough sense to look at my first couple days of a trip and see whether or not I begin with a 5 leg day or a 2 leg day, and see how much rest I will get on the first night. Also, staying in the crew room or shelling out for a hotel/crash pad is another choice I make. If you are a commuter, you know how the current system works. You have to decide how much rest and of what quality rest you get before a trip. Awake for 20 hours the day before a trip to catch the last flight into base, only to sleep 5 hours in a recliner in uniform, to wake up and fly a 12 hour duty day in marginal weather? It may get you another dinner with the family, but as we have seen you may never get another dinner at home again. It all comes down to risk management.

What normally saves us is the two pilot cockpit. Rarely have I had a trip where both the other pilot and myself started off the trip equally behind the ball. One of us is rested, and I never let myself get too tired to begin with.

Bases close frequently, and it is unreasonable to expect a pilot to move every year at the company's whim, even if moving expenses are paid. If the company closes a base you have been in for more than 2 months, I feel that then (and only then), you should be entitled to deadhead flights to your new base.

Commuting across the country is a luxury that very few others enjoy. We are spoiled, and we act entitled to this freedom. We take these jobs knowing that we will have to commute. I even know of people who commute from South America and Europe, and think that is okay!! At the same time, the company needs to recognize that they need to pay us enough to live in or near base. Commuting is forced on enough of us to make it a legitimate part of the job.

Seem like I am rambling without a point? I am. This issue is too complex to regulate, and too complex to solve via union contract. Nothing will change. The unions won't let the company determine when we commute or where we can commute from, and the company won't alter their schedules to reflect the huge range of commutes people undertake.

 

[Erlanger]

Preventing and enforcing no-commuting isn't practical or feasible. Lets start with the rest and duty times. No more 16 hour duty days; keep it at 12 hours. None of this reduced rest BS. There should be a minimum of 12 hours for rest. Think from your release time to the time you get home or to the hotel and then when you have to get up again, shower, drive to the airport, etc. With all that you still barely get 8 hours of sleep sometimes. 12 hours minimum, period, no reduced rest.

 

[l8fr82hub]

The loss of two human beings is ALWAYS a tragedy.

Don't forget about the fifty lives in back.

 

[skiandsurf]

I spent yrs commuting cross country. Red-eyes to work.

Best one was commuting (jumpseating) in on the red-eye (LAX-IAD), on an American Airlines DC10. After we get to IAD at 5am, I have to fly the 630am flight to JFK.....Guess who is on my flight...??..The AA DC10 crew. They had a scheduled deadhead on UEX.

It was a little awkward at the time.


****

(and this new format sucks !!!!! )

 

[firstthird]

Don't forget about the fifty lives in back.

No kidding. It is our job to keep them safe.

 

[bigshooter107]

Lol!!!!!

i think the answer, and i won't be holding my breath on this one, is to use the netjets model: Crewmember lives where he wants to and the company deadheads him to the point that his trip starts. The benefit to the company is that they can start trips wherever they want to, not just in a hub.

Make all carriers comply so that no carrier has a cost advantage over another. Commute time would be part of duty time. A side benefit would be that the company wouldn't want to pay for many commutes, so they would start building efficient trips. Instead of 4 commutes a month we would likely see 2. There would probably be a 7 on, 7 off type program. People that reside in domicile could make themselves available for extra flying.

For a carrier such as crumbair, trips wouldn't necessarily start in cvg or jfnk. Trips could start in bos or pvd or bna or lga or any where the company desires.

The airlines will moan and groan that this costs too much, but crews are already flying around the country quite a bit on other company's airplane to get to work. They could work out a cooperative mechanism where they would trade seats (positive space) on each other's aircraft. It needn't cost the airlines anything.

The problem that i can foresee is that given a choice of living in williston, nd or orlando, most pilots would choose the warm place. There could be some bottlenecks.

So there's your solution. We can always dream...

 

[samballs]

It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco

I have been displaced to three different bases, in 5 years. Also since the new design of this board is crap, I put the first part of your tale in bold

 

[Raoul Duke]

I think you will see carriers intentionally build trips that are not commutable to force pilots to get a hotel room the night before.

 

[rtmcfi]

I think you will see carriers intentionally build trips that are not commutable to force pilots to get a hotel room the night before.

I disagree, unless the FAA somehow mandates it. Most airlines simply could not function without commuters. There are not enough pilots that want to or can afford to live in base. Like it or not, the airlines need commuters.

 

[Papa Woody]

How do we know that the pilot pulled back on the yoke?

Because the same people who told us the AA 587 F/O slammed the rudder pedals from stop-to-stop 6 times and snapped off the tail said so!

 

[Fubijaakr]

I anticipate there will be an NPRM regarding commuting. Tonight, I'm in a hotel room at my own cost due to an early departure. Sure, I could have gotten up at 3 am, commuted and then flown a transcon.

But, its neither smart or safe.

If you CHOOSE to commute, you have to sometimes suck up a hotel room OR get a crash pad. But, its your CHOICE. You still have the responsibility to show up rested and ready to work.

 

[dh82dvr]

When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x,

I agree that you know that you will be paid x, however you may wish to based in x, but you could get y or z or a,b or c depending on how many bases there are. When I was at the regional I was based in 6 different crew bases over 5+ years. I'm sure the wife and kids would have enjoyed moving that often.