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Commuting under attack because of crash

inthegoo

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From what I have heard and read, commuting is going to become alot harder in the future, they are going to monitor us much more closely and ADD IT TO OUR DUTY DAY and we will not get paid for it (of course).

Alot more trips will become uncommutable.

You will be stuck coming in the night before, and paying for a hotel room on your own dime.

Nice career
 
Last edited:

buscap

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Won't happen.

How many other real safety issues have been highlighted just as much, to be simply forgotten when the talking heads move on to something else.



Ouch!!

Gosh. I hope that isn't a treble hook in my butt!!

At least I'm honest. I could've just hit delete, when he set the hook.
 

tdwnds1

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I hope some change comes out of this....

Personally I wont kick the crew of the flight, out of respect for the dead. There not here to defend themselves and I think enough has been said. The loss of two human beings is ALWAYS a tragedy.

There is no doubt that "something" will come out of this. I am hoping its not the "more responsiblity, same pay" result. That is my fear. All pilots are professionals (from CFI to 747-400 Captain) and should be paid as such! At the very least it has opened some peoples' eyes over how low many regional pilots are paid and I dont at all buy in to the "dont have the experience" argument. Especially in this market.

Aviation seems an almost insane world sometimes. Perhaps the best thing that can come out this disaster is a little sanity.

One can hope....
 

banditdriver

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we will not get paid for it (of course).

And why would you get paid to commute... Commuting is a luxury. As a someone who used to commute I can understand why you would think this, commuting blows a&&. The fact that you commute is not my fault, It certainly wouldn't make sense for you to be paid more than me because of it.
 

makersmarc

St. Thomas Free Univ.
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I think the answer, and I won't be holding my breath on this one, is to use the NetJets model: crewmember lives where he wants to and the company deadheads him to the point that his trip starts. The benefit to the company is that they can start trips wherever they want to, not just in a hub.

Make ALL carriers comply so that no carrier has a cost advantage over another. Commute time would be part of duty time. A side benefit would be that the company wouldn't want to pay for many commutes, so they would start building efficient trips. Instead of 4 commutes a month we would likely see 2. There would probably be a 7 on, 7 off type program. People that reside in domicile could make themselves available for extra flying.

For a carrier such as Crumbair, trips wouldn't necessarily start in CVG or JFNK. Trips could start in BOS or PVD or BNA or LGA or any where the company desires.

The airlines will moan and groan that this costs too much, but crews are already flying around the country quite a bit on other company's airplane to get to work. They could work out a cooperative mechanism where they would trade seats (positive space) on each other's aircraft. It needn't cost the airlines anything.

The problem that I can foresee is that given a choice of living in Williston, ND or Orlando, most pilots would choose the warm place. There could be some bottlenecks.

So there's your solution. We can always dream...
 

makersmarc

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And why would you get paid to commute... Commuting is a luxury. As a someone who used to commute I can understand why you would think this, commuting blows a&&. The fact that you commute is not my fault, It certainly wouldn't make sense for you to be paid more than me because of it.

I would like to respectfully disagree. The common practice in our business is that a large percentage of pilots commute. For the most part there is some flexibility in how much we work (time off) vs how much we get paid ($). By not commuting you are getting more time off than a commuter does. On the other hand, the commuter gets to live where his wife and kids want to live (small joke). I don't want to sound like I'm trying to turn this around on you, but I could just as well say that living in domicile is a luxury.

I know you don't mean to sound like this, but it sort of sounds like you are saying, "This problem doesn't effect me, so go pound sand. Not my problem." Commuters wouldn't get paid more, they would just start each trip with a DH, that's all. How does that cost you anything?
 

LowlyPropCapt

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...To say nothing of what it costs to live in many domiciles. Many regionals do not provide adequate compensation for pilots to reside in major metropolitan areas such as JFK/LGA/EWR, DCA/IAD or many west coast cities. You have to remember that many of us have families, and paying $1600 per month for us to live in a one bedroom third floor walkup with our kids is NOT an acceptable solution.

Besides, where do you draw the line? Is driving 2+ hours in heavy traffic any less fatigue inducing than a three or four hour flight into domicile? No it is not... You must agree with that. To argue otherwise would be moronic.

The key is better rest rules and the FAA supporting the pilots' prerogative to bag in sick or fatigued when they have ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER about their readiness to go fly. The "winking and nodding" is really airline management KNOWING that they are forcing pilots to disregard the conditions of thier medical certificates and the guidelines in the AIM.
 

jegermeister

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As a person who commuted for 8 years, I understand the toll it takes on you. Quite frankly it's insane that it isn't covered under regular crew rest. There are those who play it safe and commute in the night before, but even then it's disruptive to a normal rest pattern (assuming a late flight with an early show).

I completey understand the argument for and against commuting, but the underlying reality is that it does affect your performance. How many times have you given yourself an 18 hour day (with what only showed as 12 hour day on your schedule) to get one more chance at sleeping in your own bed? It gets even worse when flying CDO's.

I know that commuting is one of last reasons to hold on to for calling this a job worth having. But if we're going to get serious about holding the company/scheduling responsible for rest requirements, we also need to do ourselves and passengers a favour and hold ourselves to the same standard. For me it meant changing companies to get out of the commuting cycle.

It's a move I wish I had been able to make 8 years prior.
Jeger
 

skyaddict

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Another one of many reasons commuting is almost mandatory: bases and the number of crews per base change frequently at the whim of management bean-counters. A grown adult can't simply pack up every year or two when seniority suddenly ejects you to a new base.
 

Medeco

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It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco
 

LowlyPropCapt

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So where do the sacrifices end? EVERYTHING effects your job performance. All of us are impacted by our personal lives away from the airplane. Money, kids, spouses, mistresses, car commutes, airplane commutes, relative drama... We have got to get the industry to accept that there will be times that we are simply unfit to fly. We need to have the balls and the ability to bag in when we aren't up to the task.
 

Sig

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When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.


Ya had me, begrudgingly, then ya lost me.

Hypothetically, let's say I was an AirWiskey fella hired and based in Denver, where I made my home. Things are cool on the old Avro for quite some time. Then the entire airline packed up and moved east! I'm not ready to commute to PHL or ORF, and I'm not willing to take a severe paycut (because I know X and X) to remain near DEN. WTF are you saying?

Bases CLOSE. Move? I didn't choose this, it was imposed by the retards that have a "right" to make a profit.

The point is that not everyone fits into your sentiment seamlessly.
 

ePilot22

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It is not the companies responsibility to ensure you are rested when you come off days off. The FAA should increase rest during a trip and between trips.

A business has the right to be profitable. When you interview for a job knowing you will be paid x and you know you will be based in x, you have a personal responsibility to the company, passengers, and profession to be ready to do the job you asked for.

The company has a responsibility to train the pilots to safe standards and that should be beyond the required FAA standards, but as always it comes down to money.

The Captain supposedly lied about his exam history, and also logged onto the company computer at 3am in the crew room.

I think we should all take heed to the fact that regardless of pay, we all have a responsibility to factor in the impact we my have on countless families and the profession if we fail to get proper rest prior to starting a trip. During a trip I will now not hesitate to call in fatigued.

There is a whole slew of factors related to why this accident happened, but pilots need to step up and look in the mirror with regard to controllable rest.

Medeco

Just worth reading twice!

We need to take personal responsibility. It's time we owned it!

We blame management, FAA, unions, Majors, regionals, LCCs, CAs, FOs, FAs, pax wanting to save money, PFT, low TT, training, my CFI, your CFI, turboprop and jets.......

How about we, pilots, Americans, people, begin to accept responsibilty. Take control of what we can do and stop expecting others to do it for us.

The FAA can't regulate stupidity, nor can any SOP. You can't write in common sense, someone will always find a way to f' it up! So do what you can to improve your training, skill level, profession. Don't give the FAA another excuse to write one more regulation, Sh!t! there are already enough of them!




eP.
 

Sig

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The FAA can't regulate stupidity, nor can any SOP. You can't write in common sense, someone will always find a way to f' it up! So do what you can to improve your training, skill level, profession. Don't give the FAA another excuse to write one more regulation, Sh!t! there are already enough of them!


Amen.
 

Superpilot92

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Ya had me, begrudgingly, then ya lost me.

Hypothetically, let's say I was an AirWiskey fella hired and based in Denver, where I made my home. Things are cool on the old Avro for quite some time. Then the entire airline packed up and moved east! I'm not ready to commute to PHL or ORF, and I'm not willing to take a severe paycut (because I know X and X) to remain near DEN. WTF are you saying?

Bases CLOSE. Move? I didn't choose this, it was imposed by the retards that have a "right" to make a profit.

The point is that not everyone fits into your sentiment seamlessly.

Agreed! We are in the transportation business and things change. This isnt a job that has an office building or permanent headquarters that we as pilots all show up to. In the normal business world sure you have a job thats located typically in a city and that usually doesnt change but not in this business. Our jobs change locations ALL the time, whether your company opens or closes a base or you change companies, upgrade to a different base, downgrade to a different base, merge with another company, furlough, etc. No company in the country would require you to move you and your family everytime something changed like that.
 

NEDude

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If a major move of bases was a rare an infrequent thing, and airlines did what most companies do and paid a COLA based on your domicile, I could see the argument against commuting. In many professional jobs you have to up and move to follow your company. My cousin, an executive with Cisco Systems, has moved twice in the last four years, and we are talking major international moves - San Francisco Bay area to Paris and now Paris to London. But he is paid well, the company paid entirely for the moves, and he gets COLA bonuses based on where he is living.

Airlines for the most part pay poorly compared to other "professional" type jobs, regionals espescially. Benefits are mediocre. There is almost never a COLA based on domicile, and if you are forced to move, the company often has some pretty harsh limits on what they will pay for. And as mentioned before, domiciles open, close, grow and shrink at the whim of beancounters.

Ask CA1900 if he thinks commuting is an option - (Hi buddy!!!) - I think he set a record for closing bases during his tenure at a regional.

Seriously though at the regional level, espescially as a first officer, this would be like regularly moving your family for a job at McDonalds. Actually no, starting pay at McDonalds you would probably make more.
 

AMANSWORLD

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From what I have heard and read, commuting is going to become alot harder in the future, they are going to monitor us much more closely and ADD IT TO OUR DUTY DAY and we will not get paid for it (of course).

Alot more trips will become uncommutable.

You will be stuck coming in the night before, and paying for a hotel room on your own dime.

Nice career

Won't happen.
 

Minimaniac

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As a commuter myself for years on end, I know how hard it can be. However, I feel as commuters we have adequate control over the situation. We choose when to commute in. I have commuted in as late as possible many times, but I also have enough sense to look at my first couple days of a trip and see whether or not I begin with a 5 leg day or a 2 leg day, and see how much rest I will get on the first night. Also, staying in the crew room or shelling out for a hotel/crash pad is another choice I make. If you are a commuter, you know how the current system works. You have to decide how much rest and of what quality rest you get before a trip. Awake for 20 hours the day before a trip to catch the last flight into base, only to sleep 5 hours in a recliner in uniform, to wake up and fly a 12 hour duty day in marginal weather? It may get you another dinner with the family, but as we have seen you may never get another dinner at home again. It all comes down to risk management.

What normally saves us is the two pilot cockpit. Rarely have I had a trip where both the other pilot and myself started off the trip equally behind the ball. One of us is rested, and I never let myself get too tired to begin with.

Bases close frequently, and it is unreasonable to expect a pilot to move every year at the company's whim, even if moving expenses are paid. If the company closes a base you have been in for more than 2 months, I feel that then (and only then), you should be entitled to deadhead flights to your new base.

Commuting across the country is a luxury that very few others enjoy. We are spoiled, and we act entitled to this freedom. We take these jobs knowing that we will have to commute. I even know of people who commute from South America and Europe, and think that is okay!! At the same time, the company needs to recognize that they need to pay us enough to live in or near base. Commuting is forced on enough of us to make it a legitimate part of the job.

Seem like I am rambling without a point? I am. This issue is too complex to regulate, and too complex to solve via union contract. Nothing will change. The unions won't let the company determine when we commute or where we can commute from, and the company won't alter their schedules to reflect the huge range of commutes people undertake.
 

Erlanger

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Preventing and enforcing no-commuting isn't practical or feasible. Lets start with the rest and duty times. No more 16 hour duty days; keep it at 12 hours. None of this reduced rest BS. There should be a minimum of 12 hours for rest. Think from your release time to the time you get home or to the hotel and then when you have to get up again, shower, drive to the airport, etc. With all that you still barely get 8 hours of sleep sometimes. 12 hours minimum, period, no reduced rest.
 
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