Comair exit poll

[MetroSheriff]

Face it Fins, ALPA has lost it's bargaining power. Checkmate!

Face it InclusiveScope, Comair has lost their stones. (not sure what "Checkmate" is in refernce to)

 

[InclusiveScope]

Pat yourselves on the back a little more could. That is like predicting and earthquake on the San Andreas fault line.

You guys never quit.

If it was such a slam dunk prediction Metro, why didn't the ASA and CMR MECs agree with the RJDC? Why did the ASA and CMR MEC Chairmen become "brand scope" kool aid drinkers? Apparantly it wasn't as obvious to Bob and JC.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Supporters like me are extreemly disappointed that supporters like Surplus 1 have turned their back on the issues that they proffered and supported. That does not change the fact that ALPA needs repair. If anything this horrible failure just illustrates the great need for reform.

All it proves to me is that the RJDC pukes would sell their soul to the devil to fly a bigger, cooler airplane to assuage their bruised egos for years of "being disrespected by 'real' airline pilots".

There is no doubt that the RJDC would advocate taking paycuts to get a 737 on the property.

They would couch it terms of a long term strategic victory as a move to narrow the gap and remove the "operational integration" arguments they have been fighting all these years.

Malcontents with fragile egos and dimished sense of self-worth based on aircraft size and single-breasted uniform coats....I wish there was an acronym for that, it would be more accurate.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Face it InclusiveScope, Comair has lost their stones. (not sure what "Checkmate" is in refernce to)

Maybe they have, and maybe they haven't. If they have, then they join Mesaba, PDT, ALG, Air Wisc., ACA and others who been brow beat to death by the "portfolio" whip. I predict ASA will join the party eventually.

If this was a big chess game between ALPA and management, I believe I just heard "checkmate" from management.

 

[michael707767]

Duane and Fred have managed to divide the last remaining solidarity in ALPA. The CMR pilots are evenly split. The CMR MEC is split. The ASA and CMR MECs are split... and to top things off Fins and Surplus are sparing.

Which raises the question once again. Why did you not petition ALPA for a PID between ASA and CMR? You can't be split if you are one MEC.

 

[InclusiveScope]

All it proves to me is that the RJDC pukes would sell their soul to the devil to fly a bigger, cooler airplane to assuage their bruised egos for years of "being disrespected by 'real' airline pilots".

There are plenty of "real" airline pilots at USAirways, United, and American who are selling their soul to the devil to fly smaller planes. NWA will be next.

All airline pilots are "real" airline pilots.

 

[MetroSheriff]

You can't be split if you are one MEC.

Apparently that is not the case up in CVG.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Apparently that is not the case up in CVG.

Your right. Apparantly there was a physical fight between one of the CMR MEC members and a CMR ALPA committee chairman in CVG today over this very issue.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

All it proves to me is that the RJDC pukes would sell their soul to the devil to fly a bigger, cooler airplane to assuage their bruised egos for years of "being disrespected by 'real' airline pilots".

There is no doubt that the RJDC would advocate taking paycuts to get a 737 on the property.

They would couch it terms of a long term strategic victory as a move to narrow the gap and remove the "operational integration" arguments they have been fighting all these years.

Malcontents with fragile egos and dimished sense of self-worth based on aircraft size and single-breasted uniform coats....I wish there was an acronym for that, it would be more accurate.

That, my friend, is dead on the money. While ALPA may or may not need reform, the RJDC is not the way to do it. Nor is it their intent to reform ALPA. Your post hit the nail on the head. Of course, this is obvious from Surplus's backpedaling on the issues. On the other hand, it would seem as if fin's intentions are true regarding the issues via his discontent woth Surplus. The true colors of people usually come out eventually.

Glad to be gone.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Do you think Delta management wants to reward the CMR MEC for saying "no" a third time? The first time was the strike. The second time was the RFP. This is the third time, and if Delta management gives in, it will be a huge victory for ALPA.

How do you figure that? Flying horses is the only person on this thread that uses objective logic to support his position. A $10 an hour operating cost difference does not matter one iota in the allocation of jets. Comair is getting the airplanes that are coming to them.

In my view the Comair pilots' "yes" vote is a huge win for ALPA and I can state objective reasons why:

1. It validates apartied scope
2. It ratifies ALPA's current ( separate & unequal ) representational structure
3. It splits the two problem child pilot groups that were getting big enough together to get noticed
4. It reinforces to ALPA that they can negotiate without providing "regional" MEC's with economic analysis and the pilots will still vote for it
5. It lets ALPA off the hook for their actions, because the Comair pilots voted for it
6. It destroys the moral credibility of the Comair pilots and once you lose the moral high ground then all that is left is self interest. Self interest does not build coalitions that achieve reform.

Would someone please explain why anyone should support this agreement, other than the "I want mine, for me" crowd.

Your examples at US Air are pathetic. They lost because they did not have the sort of leadership and organization that the RJDC put together. Now you seem to be amongst the many RJDC supporters that discredit the protection that our unity has brought us.

What happened to all the true believers? Are we just giving up? Is it every man for himself?

 

[PCL_128]

The RJDC predicted that ALPA's failure in scope policy would lead to this. I can tell you that the RJDC leadership is currently more unified than the ASA and CMR MECs.

Yeah, nothing brings people together more than mind-numbing greed. The RJDC leadership may still be unified in their selfish greed, but the contributions from the rank and file will probably start to dry up if this POS passes at CMR. I just can't see CMR and ASA pilots all getting along well enough to keep supporting the same cause after CMR sells out ASA and everyone else in the industry for a little growth. We shall see though. Greed and selfishness are very strong things.

Tell me PCL 128, how is DW's "brand scope" working for you all in the NWA family? As you can see by this thread, it is a dismal failure on the Delta/DCI property. Another accurate prediction by the RJDC.

It's working just fine as far as I'm concerned. The NWA pilots own the NW code, and they can do what they see fit with it. It's none of my business. I just fly the planes and routes that they let me fly. There's nothing wrong with that. It's their flying, not mine. Just as the DL code is owned by the Delta pilots, not you. It's up to DALPA to decide what flying you are allowed to do. Eventually you'll realize that when the judge throws out the last of your claims.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The RJDC leadership may still be unified..., but the contributions from the rank and file will probably start to dry up if this POS passes at CMR. I just can't see CMR and ASA pilots all getting along well enough to keep supporting the same cause after CMR sells out ASA and everyone else in the industry for a little growth.

The NWA pilots own the NW code, and they can do what they see fit with it. It's none of my business. I just fly the planes and routes that they let me fly. There's nothing wrong with that. It's their flying, not mine. Just as the DL code is owned by the Delta pilots, not you. It's up to DALPA to decide what flying you are allowed to do. Eventually you'll realize that when the judge throws out the last of your claims.

PCL - thank you for stating the obvious. I think you are wrong on the facts, but very correct in the political fall out.

Perhaps getting a fleet guarantee was "inclusive scopes" inclusive scope. I dunno - wish he would explain what he is thinking.

Why is it bad when the Delta MEC does it and their pilots ratify it, but OK when the Comair MEC does it and their pilots ratify it?

As for the litigation, the Comair pilots are looking much less like victims and much more like predators. Politics do matter and those on the moral high ground better start defending their positions.

 

[Slim]

Add one more NO vote!

There several reasons to vote yes, but many more to vote no...

First, several items were specifically addressed by the LOA. These were items which, supposedly, were protected by the current PWA. That begs the question, "why pay for something we're already supposed to get via the current contract?"

Second, if our CASM is already the lowest, delivery of airplanes will lower the cost even more. I remember something from my days at AA about more airplanes equaling lower unit and incremental costs. That part of the airline economic structure hasn't changed post-9/11.

Third, the IAM turned down a conract with CMR and it contained a pay raise. They're still talking. The flight attendants have indicated no interest in this, yet Portfolio Phred doesn't seem too concerned. They're still talking so far as I know.

I know what more airplanes mean to the junior CAs and F/Os. I know what this means to me and my family. I refuse to invest tens of thousands of dollars of my money without a better return on investment. That investment return has to do with insurance and retirement.

Last, but not least...I couldn't face fellow pilots at ASA and offer them my support if I voted yes. I'm embarassed that my MEC encouraged us to display the stickers supporting ASA pilots, then endorse this LOA and submit it to the membership for ratificiation.

I am not opposed to helping my company when the need arises. But the help requested has to be returned in a more tangible manner than this LOA provides.

Fly safe!

 

[Caveman]

So ASA how does it feel to be in our world? Sucks having another company accept concessions doesn't it? Well, CMR pilots have been under the gun for 4 years waiting for someone else to help out. Nobody stepped up and frankly you guys weren't going to either. Us potentially accepting a freeze is going to be a convenient excuse why you couldn't get it done either. Welcome to our world.

 

[MetroSheriff]

So ASA how does it feel to be in our world? Sucks having another company accept concessions doesn't it? Well, CMR pilots have been under the gun for 4 years waiting for someone else to help out. Nobody stepped up and frankly you guys weren't going to either. Us potentially accepting a freeze is going to be a convenient excuse why you couldn't get it done either. Welcome to our world.

Your world? You arrogant a$$. Your justification for your spineless actions is laughable. You do what is right...because it is right, not because it is easy.

As for ASA, we are doing the best we can under Section 6. You just made it a lot harder.

I find it hard to believe a man with that avatar would get on here and publicly justify group cowardice and greed "because everyone else is doing it". You used to be better than the rest. Not anymore.

CAVEMAN...do you get the irony of the nickname. I do.

Semper Fi (or is that only in the good times too???)

 

[atrdriver]

So Freddie, why maybe not the father of the portfolio concept, but certainly one of the devoted children of it, comes to CMR and he is suddenly the next Herb or Gordon? I bet for every dollar he takes from you guys now he gets a good piece of it in a bonus. You could save him a lot of trouble and just write him checks.

 

[Caveman]

Hey Deputyboy,

You worry about your contract and I'll worry about mine. I'm done explaining anything to anyone but another Comair pilot.

SEMPER FIDELIS (to the Corps, not ASA pilots)

 

[shamrock]

Seems to me that even if this doesn't pass, Freddy should still be in for a handsome bonus.

Who cares about getting a pay freeze when you've struck a fatal blow the unity of the ASA and CMR pilot groups.

 

[InclusiveScope]

How do you figure that? Flying horses is the only person on this thread that uses objective logic to support his position. A $10 an hour operating cost difference does not matter one iota in the allocation of jets. Comair is getting the airplanes that are coming to them.

In my view the Comair pilots' "yes" vote is a huge win for ALPA and I can state objective reasons why:

1. It validates apartied scope
2. It ratifies ALPA's current ( separate & unequal ) representational structure
3. It splits the two problem child pilot groups that were getting big enough together to get noticed
4. It reinforces to ALPA that they can negotiate without providing "regional" MEC's with economic analysis and the pilots will still vote for it
5. It lets ALPA off the hook for their actions, because the Comair pilots voted for it
6. It destroys the moral credibility of the Comair pilots and once you lose the moral high ground then all that is left is self interest. Self interest does not build coalitions that achieve reform.

Fins, I agree with you on these points. I personally hope the vote is no from an ASA point of view. However I will understand if the CMR pilots throw in the towel. I guess I see both sides of this issue. It is a lot easier to cast a "no" vote if you are an ASA pilot than if you are a CMR pilot.

Would someone please explain why anyone should support this agreement, other than the "I want mine, for me" crowd.

No one should support it except the "I want mine, for me" crowd. However if you don't reward people for taking one for the team, they will turn into that crowd.

Your examples at US Air are pathetic. They lost because they did not have the sort of leadership and organization that the RJDC put together. Now you seem to be amongst the many RJDC supporters that discredit the protection that our unity has brought us.

What happened to all the true believers? Are we just giving up? Is it every man for himself?

At some point, true believers become "realists". The ALG and PDT pilots had the best contracts in the regional industry. They have been shrunk while Mesa, Trans States, and CHQ have grown. The same is happening on the United property with the former ACA and with Air Wisc. currently. Over at NWA, Mesaba has stagnated while Pinnacle has grown. On every property, the highest cost regionals have stagnated at best and vanished at worst.

The CMR pilots struck for 89 days. Management started moving airplanes to ASA and SKYW.

During the last RFP, CMR said no - they didn't get any airplanes.

Do you see a trend here. Doing the "right" thing only gets you some accolades on the flightinfo board.

The RJDC has protected the ASA and CMR pilots from "jets4jobs" and further scope limitations. It has not protected us from the whipsaw. This is the whipsaw plain and simple. It works folks.

In the current form, ALPA has no solidarity.

 

[InclusiveScope]

It's working just fine as far as I'm concerned. The NWA pilots own the NW code, and they can do what they see fit with it. It's none of my business. I just fly the planes and routes that they let me fly. There's nothing wrong with that. It's their flying, not mine. Just as the DL code is owned by the Delta pilots, not you. It's up to DALPA to decide what flying you are allowed to do. Eventually you'll realize that when the judge throws out the last of your claims.

There is the difference between you and me. My job doesn't belong to ALPA, or the Delta MEC, or the Delta pilots. It belongs to me. You have bought into the master/apprentice concept of your job and to the "brand scope" BS from Herndon.