Comair exit poll

[MetroSheriff]

Hey Deputyboy,

You worry about your contract and I'll worry about mine. I'm done explaining anything to anyone but another Comair pilot.

SEMPER FIDELIS (to the Corps, not ASA pilots)

Those pangs of selfish guilt and greed hurt, don't they? Not to mention the bump on your head from the long fall from the moral high ground.

 

[jarhead]

Cincinnati Enquirer -
Sunday, February 27, 2005

Pilots confront salary choices

Here's one to ponder over your pancakes this morning: Would you agree to freeze your salary to help your employer?

The responses come quickly, first from fear, then from self-interest, and finally, hopefully, from a cold, hard look at the big picture. For anyone who's ever thought they deserved a raise, then groused when they didn't get one, the lines come naturally: "I earned those raises, and I'm not giving them back. No way." "If I say no, I might have no job at all." "Do I have a choice?"

That's the problem facing about 1,900 pilots at Comair this weekend. They're voting on just such a proposal from their employer, the Erlanger-based airline that's facing the squeeze from its parent, Delta Air Lines.

It's a stark choice that a new Comair management has presented. As my colleague James Pilcher reported last week, in exchange for the freeze, managers will cut their salaries 10 percent as long as pilots' pay is frozen, the company will guarantee 35 new planes, and pilots will get back 89 days of seniority from their bitter 2001 strike. Give the company credit: It's not demanding something for nothing.

But without the freeze, president Fred Buttrell has warned, there's no guarantee of anything.

Keep in mind, the changes aren't designed to help Comair return to profitability. The airline already makes money, with operating profits of $25.7 million in the third quarter. But in the Alice-in-Wonderland world of the 21st century corporation, that reality has blurred. Survival doesn't mean keeping the lights on and keeping gas in the planes. Survival means growth. And Buttrell knows that to grow, Comair needs those new planes and new routes.

So he puts the onus on employees. It's a powerful offer because it capitalizes on the fear it inevitably provokes. Many employees aren't thinking about their long-term interests or their career plans. They're thinking about their kids' parochial school tuition, or ballet lessons, or the mortgage payment due next month.

And Comair employees actually are lucky. At big-papa Delta, pilots reluctantly voted last year to accept a 32.5 percent pay cut. Of course, they make a lot more than Comair pilots, but Delta gave them the same choice. Accept the deal, and we can survive. Turn it down, and we'll have to file bankruptcy.

And thousands of other Delta employees took a 10 percent cut with no choice at all. So how does a Comair pilot evaluate the Comair offer?

It has to be tempting to vote no. With the strike still a bitter pill to swallow for some pilots, they might not want to give back one penny. Comair isn't about to close down here, they might think, with the hundreds of millions of dollars Delta has invested.
And when the economy recovers, the logic goes, they'll be right back, adding more routes and planes here to squeeze a little more milk from their cash cow.

But then reality has to kick in. A pilot might think, I really don't want to bet on a recovery in the airline industry right now. And Delta has other regional airlines that can use those planes and those routes.
In the end, it's not up to Comair's union to buy new planes. Even if they like working at Comair, even if they feel a sense of loyalty to their employer, they have to think of themselves. That's why Comair's union is talking - to protect those jobs.

The gut feeling here is that the pilots don't have much of a choice. They work for what was once a fine local company and is still better than most in a cruddy industry. Bailing out doesn't look real attractive right now. That mortgage payment is coming due.

E-mail [email protected]

 

[JI Gone OH]

and bigger airplanes!! Pathetic.

CRJ700 = 70 seats
EMB170 = 70 seats

Did I miss something in the L.O.A. about bigger airplanes?

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

One thing to consider/remember. It might have already been mentioned, but I don't have time to read the last 6 pages of this thread.

The Comair pay tables are not being changed! The pay tables are not being rewritten. So, we are not lowering the "bar" (if the "bar" is our pay rates). The bar is not moving. Not one word of the contract is changing. All the LOA does is effect where an individual pilot falls on the pay table. While it is true that we don't move into the last pay column, the pay column has not been taken out of the contract (the one aspect of this that I don't care for...not moving into that column ever).

So, when ASA or PCL is at the table discussing pay tables, the Comair pay table, as written now, is still in full effect.

 

[FDJ2]

CRJ700 = 70 seats
EMB170 = 70 seats

Did I miss something in the L.O.A. about bigger airplanes?

Yes, the E-170 is a bigger aircraft with, two class configuration, heavier weights, longer range, bigger overhead storage bins, wider cabin, etc.

 

[JI Gone OH]

Yes, the E-170 is a bigger aircraft with, two class configuration, heavier weights, longer range, bigger overhead storage bins, wider cabin, etc.

Well obviously... My point is that even if we were to get E170 [which there is no guarantee we will], we wouldn't be gaining additional seat capacity. This equates to the exact same payscale we have now, and therefore you can't argue that it's a "bigger" airplane. You and I both know that the only thing that really makes an airplane "bigger" is when you gain capacity and create a new column in Section 3 of your working agreement. This L.O.A. doesn't do that for us. We [COMAIR] are being accused of having the "big airplane" syndrome, when it appears to me as though the real people who have fallen prey to this are the people on the outside looking in.

 

[av8tor4239]

Management does not "reward" pilots by buying new airplanes. They buy and aquire new aircraft in order to increase their revenues and profits, the more aircraft flying, the more money an airline makes (as long as there is demand for them). .

This is the bottom line! It is that simple... The only thing that you are assuring by voting YES to this LOA is that your pay will be frozen (CONCESSIONS).

how'd those job protection clauses in the DAL contract work out for you guys after 9/11? There are several thousand furloughed pilots out there right now that can explain to you how well these job protection clauses work. If you think that you can assure jobs through concessions then you're dreaming.

Once again.. In my opinion and many others, all you are securing for your future is a concessionary pay freeze.

 

[Bizjet]

Hey look, I'm not sure what the answer is for you guys down in ATL. What I do know is that I have been at COMAIR for over 3 years, and y'all have been negotiating for just about the entire time I have been here. I appreciate and believe that you were planning on raising the bar, but the question is when? We can't afford to sit around and wait for you, and in the meantime watch these airplanes continue be allocated to other "portfolio" carriers, esp. the non-WO's like CHQ. It's time for us to either ride the pine or get in the game. I prefer the latter....

How long has ASA been negotiating? 2 years 5 months.

Questions for you JI Gone OH.
How long did Comair negotiate for their current agreement?

How much are Comair pilots giving up on an hourly basis (during the terms of your current contract) for the 90 days of lost pay from your strike?

Do you understand that there are no minimum fleet guarantees after 2008?

Do you understand that you will already be involved in Section 6 negotiations when management will be free to start the downsizing game with your pilots because they know that is the ultimate punishment for a pilot group who willingly gives concessions for growth aircraft?

Do you or any of your pilots know why your MEC decided to go it alone?

Do you understand that your leaderships actions are like a married man/woman abandoning his/her family because he/she had found some one else?

Do you think that man/woman should come back when he/she gets dumped and ask for forgiveness for disappearing with out any explanation why?

Do you think that the Comair pilots feel that your leaders duped the naive ASA leadership?

Do you think the ASA pilot leaders feel that your leaders were never serious about one list?

Have your pilots leaders been asked any of these questions during your pilot meetings where this is being sold?

Do you even care?

Do you think that most midsized airlines have always looked up to the ASA and Comair pilots because the only protections they enjoy is mutual trust and solidarity and that the relationship has been unflappable for a number of years now?

Do you think that many of those pilots are wondering what happened and why?

Do you believe that the ASA/Comair MEC's are not seriously weaken by your leaderships unilateral actions?

Do you believe that Fred Buttrell is laughing right now because he destroyed the ASA/Comair unity in less that 30 days?

Do you fullly understand who got weak and caved first?

Do you believe that pilots should finance aircraft for managment?

They should have fired your president several years ago so that they could have fleeced the Comair pilots for growth then! Whether you get the aircraft or not you have shown weakness and your pilot's contract will be under constant economic attack. The money you lose is gone for good. You will have to use negotiating capital just to get back to where you were and the cost will more that double because your naivete will be ingrained into managements memory. If additional aircraft only generate enough profit to pay pilots salaries managment would be foolish to ever buy any aircraft. Airlines only buy aircraft when the economics dictate growth in revenues and the bottom line. Your give backs are only cump change. If the vote is NO you may very well save your airline from financial doom because there should be significant profits above crew cost for each aircraft delivery. Get to know Buttrell really well, he is going to be "YO DADDY" for a long time.

No matter the outcome I hope that your pilots can get back their industry leading solidarity by the time your Section 6 negotiations start. GOOD LUCK either way.

 

[jarhead]

If you think that you can assure jobs through concessions then you're dreaming.

I am just guessing here, but do you feel the 32.5% pay CUT that the Delta pilots approved via a vote assured them of jobs? Again, just guessing, but perhaps the majority voted to take those CUTS (a bitter pill to be sure) because they viewed that as a better alternative to bankruptcy and the courts taking a knife to their contract. Here, it could be argued, that concessions did assure them of jobs.

 

[shamrock]

The Comair pay tables are not being changed! The pay tables are not being rewritten. So, we are not lowering the "bar" (if the "bar" is our pay rates). The bar is not moving. Not one word of the contract is changing. All the LOA does is effect where an individual pilot falls on the pay table. While it is true that we don't move into the last pay column, the pay column has not been taken out of the contract (the one aspect of this that I don't care for...not moving into that column ever).

So, when ASA or PCL is at the table discussing pay tables, the Comair pay table, as written now, is still in full effect.

Who cares what the pay table says? You could have a pay table that shows new hire RJ FOs being paid $100 and hour, but if new hires aren't actually being paid $100 an hour it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

If I understand this proposal correctly, you are essentially resetting the payscale back whatever amount of time the freeze is in effect. After the freeze, a current 7 year captain will have 8 years with the company in 2006 but will still be getting the 7 year "pay table" rate. That rate is now your effective 8 year rate. The same captain a year later would still be on the 7 year rate, but have 9 years in. Now that 7 year rate becomes your effective 9 year rate. Assuming even a short 2 year freeze, you will be working at a rate 2 years lower than your time with the company when longevity steps kick back in, and you will stay there for the length of your contract. Correct?

 

[JI Gone OH]

Sorry I don't have time to answer all of your questions:



Questions for you JI Gone OH.
How long did Comair negotiate for their current agreement? At least as long as you, under totally different circumstances and economic influences.

Do you understand that there are no minimum fleet guarantees after 2008? Yes, and I also understand there are no minimum fleet guarantees until 2008 either.

Do you understand that your leaderships actions are like a married man/woman abandoning his/her family because he/she had found some one else? Why did he/she decide to leave in the first place? Could it be that he/she had felt as though they were living "alone" for the last 4 years and decided to do what they needed to make a better life for themselves.

Do you think that man/woman should come back when he/she gets dumped andask for forgiveness for disappearing with out any explanation why? 2 family related analogies in a row? If you are having problems at home, please seek the help of a family counselor.

Do you think that the Comair pilots feel that your leaders duped the naive ASA leadership? No

Do you think the ASA pilot leaders feel that your leaders were never serious about one list? I would hope not, as I believe we are still serious about it, but I suppose it is conceivable that your leaders could feel that way.

Have your pilots leaders been asked any of these questions during your pilot meetings where this is being sold? Of course

Do you even care? Of course

Do you fullly understand who got weak and caved first? Air Wisconsin? ;-)

Do you believe that pilots should finance aircraft for managment? For the 10th time, our freeze is not financing the aircraft. How many RJ's does 14-16 million buy. We are getting our costs in line with everyone who has refused to hold the line or has taken concessions over the last 3 years. It's as simple as that.

 

[SNK]

The paytables ARE being rewritten

Just so the record is straight, the paytables ARE being REwritten. If this LOA passes, the 6/22/05 column of the paytables ceases to exist. The next pay raise would not come until January, 2008...and that would be a merely a 2% bump over the current rates (from the 6/22/04 paytable).

I say again..the paytables are being rewritten!!

SNK

 

[Bizjet]

Do you think that man/woman should come back when he/she gets dumped andask for forgiveness for disappearing with out any explanation why? 2 family related analogies in a row? If you are having problems at home, please seek the help of a family counselor.

Thanks for the advice. Doesn't that usually require that both family members attend. I doubt that the CMR family members will be able to go with us because I understand they have gone spelunking! One smart a!! answer deserves another.

An article in the CVG Rag said the vote was 2 for and 1 against for the MEC to recommend their pilots to vote "YES" on this T/A? By the way do you know who the representative was who failed to cast a vote either for, against or abstain?

 

[chperplt]

I say again..the paytables are being rewritten!!

It's all word play.

The paytables are NOT being rewritten. IF this LOA passes and goes into effect, the 6/22/05 payscale will be used as a benchmark in the next contract. IF these paytables were being rewritten, then the 6/22/04 payscale would be used as the benchmark.

Just because you won't be going into the 6/22/05 table doesn't mean it's going away.

 

[chperplt]

An article in the CVG Rag said the vote was 2 for and 1 against for the MEC to recommend their pilots to vote "YES" on this T/A? By the way do you know who the representative was who failed to cast a vote either for, against or abstain?

The vote was 2-1 FOR the LOA and 3-0 for MR.

The person who failed to vote said he would have voted FOR and FOR making in 3-1 and 4-0

 

[JI Gone OH]

One smart a!! answer deserves another.

Indeed it does ;-) Nice afternoon....

 

[FDJ2]

Do you understand that there are no minimum fleet guarantees after 2008?

That's an interesting point. I wonder when some of the CRJ50s start coming off of lease? That's a question that would concern me. My guess is shortly after 2008.

JMO, but I suspect CMR will get more 70 seaters regardless of the outcome of this vote, but CMR will eventually start parking a large number of 50 seaters starting in 2008. In the short term, CMR is being "fattened" for the sale. With freshly ratified contract concessions for growth LOA, a contract extension and new 70 seaters on order, CMR will look much more attractive when it is ultimately spun off.

Fred hit a home run when he brought that E-170 to CVG. It didn't take long after that to get the CMR pilots in line for his concessions for growth scheme.

 

[Bizjet]

That's an interesting point. I wonder when some of the CRJ50s start coming off of lease? That's a question that would concern me. My guess is shortly after 2008.

JMO, but I suspect CMR will get more 70 seaters regardless of the outcome of this vote, but CMR will eventually start parking a large number of 50 seaters starting in 2008. In the short term, CMR is being "fattened" for the sale. With freshly ratified contract concessions for growth LOA, a contract extension and new 70 seaters on order, CMR will look much more attractive when it is ultimately spun off.

Fred hit a home run when he brought that E-170 to CVG. It didn't take long after that to get the CMR pilots in line for his concessions for growth scheme.

I agree. Fred didn't even have to break a sweat or even spend a dime. He just called and said to bring that EMB 170 to CVG and if you have one in carrot orange that may also be helpful. Shouldn't need it but one day. LOL

 

[Nindiri]

Do you understand that there are no minimum fleet guarantees after 2008?

Won't Comair be in negotiations and status quo by that time? Wouldn't that mean no changes, including contract minimum fleet size, until released by the mediator?

 

[chperplt]

Won't Comair be in negotiations and status quo by that time? Wouldn't that mean no changes, including contract minimum fleet size, until released by the mediator?

This point was brought up during the road shows..

 

[FDJ2]

Won't Comair be in negotiations and status quo by that time? Wouldn't that mean no changes, including contract minimum fleet size, until released by the mediator?

It would not be hard to envision the scenario where CMR would not be in violation of the status quo if it chooses to reduce the contract minimum fleet size in 2008, since apparently, according to the LOA, CMR has a right to do just that.

IOW, since there appears to be no contractual minimum fleet size in 2008, the company would not be acting outside of the status quo of your contract if it were to execute its option to reduce your fleet size at that time.

 

[Nindiri]

I haven't read the LOA (not Comair), but I was under the impression that the permitted reduction was small and only for a specific period of time. If the LOA doesn't contain language to that effect, I could definitely see the problem.

 

[standaman]

Three excerpts from the LOA may help on this question.


The Company aircraft fleet will not total no less than 199 by March 31, 2008. (At least 52 70 seaters and 147 50 seaters).

The Company aircraft fleet will not total no less than 199 until Dec 31, 2008.

From March 31, 2008 through December 31, 2008 the aircraft fleet may be reduced to no less than 193 aircraft for a period of no more than 6 months (52 of the fleet must be 70 seaters). For the duration of such temporary fleet reduction, if any, no pilot shall be downgraded in status.

 

[Bizjet]

Three excerpts from the LOA may help on this question.


The Company aircraft fleet will not total no less than 199 by March 31, 2008. (At least 52 70 seaters and 147 50 seaters).

The Company aircraft fleet will not total no less than 199 until Dec 31, 2008.

From March 31, 2008 through December 31, 2008 the aircraft fleet may be reduced to no less than 193 aircraft for a period of no more than 6 months (52 of the fleet must be 70 seaters). For the duration of such temporary fleet reduction, if any, no pilot shall be downgraded in status.

You made it easy to understand. After December 31, 2008 they can turn in all your aircraft on their own schedule based on the LOA unless there are limits in the PWA.

 

[JI Gone OH]

You made it easy to understand. After December 31, 2008 they can turn in all your aircraft on their own schedule based on the LOA unless there are limits in the PWA.

What's currently in place to stop them from doing that prior to December 31, 2008?

 

[Bizjet]

And what's in place to stop them from doing that prior to Dec. 31 2008 without the L.O.A.?

Why not just give back half of everything in your contract and see if they will give you a minimum fleet size for six years. No that won't work. Fly for free until your most junior pilot retires.

 

[FDJ2]

You made it easy to understand. After December 31, 2008 they can turn in all your aircraft on their own schedule based on the LOA unless there are limits in the PWA.

Yep. Unless there are protections that extend beyond 12-31-08, CMR can reduce its minimum fleet size at will. Going forward, there really isn't much of a market for the high cost CRJ50, which makes up the bulk of the CMR fleet, maybe a little bit more of a market for the CRJ70 and even more for the E-170. I wouldn't be surprised ot see CMR get its fair share of CRJ70 orders and maybe just maybe some E170s as DAL sets up CMR for sale. I suspect that after 12-31-08 CMR will start shedding itself of the high cost 50 seaters as their leases end.

 

[chperplt]

I suspect that after 12-31-05 CMR will start shedding itself of the high cost 50 seaters as their leases end.

Leases don't end after 12-31-05, nor will the LOA allow those aircraft to go away after 12-31-05.

 

[surplus1]

Yep. Unless there are protections that extend beyond 12-31-08, CMR can reduce its minimum fleet size at will. Going forward, there really isn't much of a market for the high cost CRJ50, which makes up the bulk of the CMR fleet, maybe a little bit more of a market for the CRJ70 and even more for the E-170. I wouldn't be surprised ot see CMR get its fair share of CRJ70 orders and maybe just maybe some E170s as DAL sets up CMR for sale. I suspect that after 12-31-05 CMR will start shedding itself of the high cost 50 seaters as their leases end.

You are not wrong FDJ2, but you do overlook something. There is nothing in the current PWA that prevents Delta from reducing the size of Comair's fleet at any time. They can transfer all or any part of the CR7's to another "connection" carrier tomorrow, if they see fit. They can sell any or all of the CR2's at any time they choose. There is nothing we can do to prevent it. As it stands today, Comair owns no aircraft. As it stands today, Delta decides what airplanes it will buy, if any. Delta also decides where it will allocate those aircraft, at any point in time. You've told us many times that Comair has no money and Delta pays for everything. I'm sure you haven't changed your mind and there is no reason for you to do so. The game of which walnut shell hides the pea, is alive and well.

Tell me, in what Section of the Delta PWA is the company prevented from downsizing the current Delta fleet? Is it possible per the Delta PWA for the company to unload or park all of the DC9's or the 737's? What in the Delta PWA prevented the company from parking your MD-11's, parking your 727's or refusing to take delivery of additional 777's. Could the company dump the 767-200's and keep only the 300/400 series?

I'm not being critical of your PWA, I just want you to point out the applicable Section to me since I seem to have missed it.

When the Delta pilots agreed to LOA46, did Delta guarantee that it would not declare bankruptcy at some time in the future? I wonder if the Delta pilots had refused concessions do you believe DAL would have declared BK? If it did declare BK, do you believe that ASA and CMR would also have been declared bankrupt or exempted?

I also wonder what "concessions" Delta, ASA and CMR would have had to take in a BK scenario. Do you think your concessions would have been bigger or smaller? Would we have retained our current contracts?

If Delta was not losing a ton of money, do you think it would be asking CMR for concessions?

Finally, in the event of and IPO that spins off Comair, do you think that would be a good thing for CMR or a bad thing for CMR? Please explain.

Do you believe that a spin off of CMR would be good for Delta or bad for Delta?

Sorry, I have so many questions.......

 

[Nindiri]

If Comair plans to start shedding 50 seaters and not maintain the fleet size, why would they be wanting to add 10 more this year?