Comair exit poll

[MetroSheriff]

Face it Fins, ALPA has lost it's bargaining power. Checkmate!

Face it InclusiveScope, Comair has lost their stones. (not sure what "Checkmate" is in refernce to)

 

[InclusiveScope]

Pat yourselves on the back a little more could. That is like predicting and earthquake on the San Andreas fault line.

You guys never quit.

If it was such a slam dunk prediction Metro, why didn't the ASA and CMR MECs agree with the RJDC? Why did the ASA and CMR MEC Chairmen become "brand scope" kool aid drinkers? Apparantly it wasn't as obvious to Bob and JC.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Supporters like me are extreemly disappointed that supporters like Surplus 1 have turned their back on the issues that they proffered and supported. That does not change the fact that ALPA needs repair. If anything this horrible failure just illustrates the great need for reform.

All it proves to me is that the RJDC pukes would sell their soul to the devil to fly a bigger, cooler airplane to assuage their bruised egos for years of "being disrespected by 'real' airline pilots".

There is no doubt that the RJDC would advocate taking paycuts to get a 737 on the property.

They would couch it terms of a long term strategic victory as a move to narrow the gap and remove the "operational integration" arguments they have been fighting all these years.

Malcontents with fragile egos and dimished sense of self-worth based on aircraft size and single-breasted uniform coats....I wish there was an acronym for that, it would be more accurate.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Face it InclusiveScope, Comair has lost their stones. (not sure what "Checkmate" is in refernce to)

Maybe they have, and maybe they haven't. If they have, then they join Mesaba, PDT, ALG, Air Wisc., ACA and others who been brow beat to death by the "portfolio" whip. I predict ASA will join the party eventually.

If this was a big chess game between ALPA and management, I believe I just heard "checkmate" from management.

 

[michael707767]

Duane and Fred have managed to divide the last remaining solidarity in ALPA. The CMR pilots are evenly split. The CMR MEC is split. The ASA and CMR MECs are split... and to top things off Fins and Surplus are sparing.

Which raises the question once again. Why did you not petition ALPA for a PID between ASA and CMR? You can't be split if you are one MEC.

 

[InclusiveScope]

All it proves to me is that the RJDC pukes would sell their soul to the devil to fly a bigger, cooler airplane to assuage their bruised egos for years of "being disrespected by 'real' airline pilots".

There are plenty of "real" airline pilots at USAirways, United, and American who are selling their soul to the devil to fly smaller planes. NWA will be next.

All airline pilots are "real" airline pilots.

 

[MetroSheriff]

You can't be split if you are one MEC.

Apparently that is not the case up in CVG.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Apparently that is not the case up in CVG.

Your right. Apparantly there was a physical fight between one of the CMR MEC members and a CMR ALPA committee chairman in CVG today over this very issue.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

All it proves to me is that the RJDC pukes would sell their soul to the devil to fly a bigger, cooler airplane to assuage their bruised egos for years of "being disrespected by 'real' airline pilots".

There is no doubt that the RJDC would advocate taking paycuts to get a 737 on the property.

They would couch it terms of a long term strategic victory as a move to narrow the gap and remove the "operational integration" arguments they have been fighting all these years.

Malcontents with fragile egos and dimished sense of self-worth based on aircraft size and single-breasted uniform coats....I wish there was an acronym for that, it would be more accurate.

That, my friend, is dead on the money. While ALPA may or may not need reform, the RJDC is not the way to do it. Nor is it their intent to reform ALPA. Your post hit the nail on the head. Of course, this is obvious from Surplus's backpedaling on the issues. On the other hand, it would seem as if fin's intentions are true regarding the issues via his discontent woth Surplus. The true colors of people usually come out eventually.

Glad to be gone.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Do you think Delta management wants to reward the CMR MEC for saying "no" a third time? The first time was the strike. The second time was the RFP. This is the third time, and if Delta management gives in, it will be a huge victory for ALPA.

How do you figure that? Flying horses is the only person on this thread that uses objective logic to support his position. A $10 an hour operating cost difference does not matter one iota in the allocation of jets. Comair is getting the airplanes that are coming to them.

In my view the Comair pilots' "yes" vote is a huge win for ALPA and I can state objective reasons why:

1. It validates apartied scope
2. It ratifies ALPA's current ( separate & unequal ) representational structure
3. It splits the two problem child pilot groups that were getting big enough together to get noticed
4. It reinforces to ALPA that they can negotiate without providing "regional" MEC's with economic analysis and the pilots will still vote for it
5. It lets ALPA off the hook for their actions, because the Comair pilots voted for it
6. It destroys the moral credibility of the Comair pilots and once you lose the moral high ground then all that is left is self interest. Self interest does not build coalitions that achieve reform.

Would someone please explain why anyone should support this agreement, other than the "I want mine, for me" crowd.

Your examples at US Air are pathetic. They lost because they did not have the sort of leadership and organization that the RJDC put together. Now you seem to be amongst the many RJDC supporters that discredit the protection that our unity has brought us.

What happened to all the true believers? Are we just giving up? Is it every man for himself?

 

[PCL_128]

The RJDC predicted that ALPA's failure in scope policy would lead to this. I can tell you that the RJDC leadership is currently more unified than the ASA and CMR MECs.

Yeah, nothing brings people together more than mind-numbing greed. The RJDC leadership may still be unified in their selfish greed, but the contributions from the rank and file will probably start to dry up if this POS passes at CMR. I just can't see CMR and ASA pilots all getting along well enough to keep supporting the same cause after CMR sells out ASA and everyone else in the industry for a little growth. We shall see though. Greed and selfishness are very strong things.

Tell me PCL 128, how is DW's "brand scope" working for you all in the NWA family? As you can see by this thread, it is a dismal failure on the Delta/DCI property. Another accurate prediction by the RJDC.

It's working just fine as far as I'm concerned. The NWA pilots own the NW code, and they can do what they see fit with it. It's none of my business. I just fly the planes and routes that they let me fly. There's nothing wrong with that. It's their flying, not mine. Just as the DL code is owned by the Delta pilots, not you. It's up to DALPA to decide what flying you are allowed to do. Eventually you'll realize that when the judge throws out the last of your claims.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The RJDC leadership may still be unified..., but the contributions from the rank and file will probably start to dry up if this POS passes at CMR. I just can't see CMR and ASA pilots all getting along well enough to keep supporting the same cause after CMR sells out ASA and everyone else in the industry for a little growth.

The NWA pilots own the NW code, and they can do what they see fit with it. It's none of my business. I just fly the planes and routes that they let me fly. There's nothing wrong with that. It's their flying, not mine. Just as the DL code is owned by the Delta pilots, not you. It's up to DALPA to decide what flying you are allowed to do. Eventually you'll realize that when the judge throws out the last of your claims.

PCL - thank you for stating the obvious. I think you are wrong on the facts, but very correct in the political fall out.

Perhaps getting a fleet guarantee was "inclusive scopes" inclusive scope. I dunno - wish he would explain what he is thinking.

Why is it bad when the Delta MEC does it and their pilots ratify it, but OK when the Comair MEC does it and their pilots ratify it?

As for the litigation, the Comair pilots are looking much less like victims and much more like predators. Politics do matter and those on the moral high ground better start defending their positions.

 

[Slim]

Add one more NO vote!

There several reasons to vote yes, but many more to vote no...

First, several items were specifically addressed by the LOA. These were items which, supposedly, were protected by the current PWA. That begs the question, "why pay for something we're already supposed to get via the current contract?"

Second, if our CASM is already the lowest, delivery of airplanes will lower the cost even more. I remember something from my days at AA about more airplanes equaling lower unit and incremental costs. That part of the airline economic structure hasn't changed post-9/11.

Third, the IAM turned down a conract with CMR and it contained a pay raise. They're still talking. The flight attendants have indicated no interest in this, yet Portfolio Phred doesn't seem too concerned. They're still talking so far as I know.

I know what more airplanes mean to the junior CAs and F/Os. I know what this means to me and my family. I refuse to invest tens of thousands of dollars of my money without a better return on investment. That investment return has to do with insurance and retirement.

Last, but not least...I couldn't face fellow pilots at ASA and offer them my support if I voted yes. I'm embarassed that my MEC encouraged us to display the stickers supporting ASA pilots, then endorse this LOA and submit it to the membership for ratificiation.

I am not opposed to helping my company when the need arises. But the help requested has to be returned in a more tangible manner than this LOA provides.

Fly safe!

 

[Caveman]

So ASA how does it feel to be in our world? Sucks having another company accept concessions doesn't it? Well, CMR pilots have been under the gun for 4 years waiting for someone else to help out. Nobody stepped up and frankly you guys weren't going to either. Us potentially accepting a freeze is going to be a convenient excuse why you couldn't get it done either. Welcome to our world.

 

[MetroSheriff]

So ASA how does it feel to be in our world? Sucks having another company accept concessions doesn't it? Well, CMR pilots have been under the gun for 4 years waiting for someone else to help out. Nobody stepped up and frankly you guys weren't going to either. Us potentially accepting a freeze is going to be a convenient excuse why you couldn't get it done either. Welcome to our world.

Your world? You arrogant a$$. Your justification for your spineless actions is laughable. You do what is right...because it is right, not because it is easy.

As for ASA, we are doing the best we can under Section 6. You just made it a lot harder.

I find it hard to believe a man with that avatar would get on here and publicly justify group cowardice and greed "because everyone else is doing it". You used to be better than the rest. Not anymore.

CAVEMAN...do you get the irony of the nickname. I do.

Semper Fi (or is that only in the good times too???)

 

[atrdriver]

So Freddie, why maybe not the father of the portfolio concept, but certainly one of the devoted children of it, comes to CMR and he is suddenly the next Herb or Gordon? I bet for every dollar he takes from you guys now he gets a good piece of it in a bonus. You could save him a lot of trouble and just write him checks.

 

[Caveman]

Hey Deputyboy,

You worry about your contract and I'll worry about mine. I'm done explaining anything to anyone but another Comair pilot.

SEMPER FIDELIS (to the Corps, not ASA pilots)

 

[shamrock]

Seems to me that even if this doesn't pass, Freddy should still be in for a handsome bonus.

Who cares about getting a pay freeze when you've struck a fatal blow the unity of the ASA and CMR pilot groups.

 

[InclusiveScope]

How do you figure that? Flying horses is the only person on this thread that uses objective logic to support his position. A $10 an hour operating cost difference does not matter one iota in the allocation of jets. Comair is getting the airplanes that are coming to them.

In my view the Comair pilots' "yes" vote is a huge win for ALPA and I can state objective reasons why:

1. It validates apartied scope
2. It ratifies ALPA's current ( separate & unequal ) representational structure
3. It splits the two problem child pilot groups that were getting big enough together to get noticed
4. It reinforces to ALPA that they can negotiate without providing "regional" MEC's with economic analysis and the pilots will still vote for it
5. It lets ALPA off the hook for their actions, because the Comair pilots voted for it
6. It destroys the moral credibility of the Comair pilots and once you lose the moral high ground then all that is left is self interest. Self interest does not build coalitions that achieve reform.

Fins, I agree with you on these points. I personally hope the vote is no from an ASA point of view. However I will understand if the CMR pilots throw in the towel. I guess I see both sides of this issue. It is a lot easier to cast a "no" vote if you are an ASA pilot than if you are a CMR pilot.

Would someone please explain why anyone should support this agreement, other than the "I want mine, for me" crowd.

No one should support it except the "I want mine, for me" crowd. However if you don't reward people for taking one for the team, they will turn into that crowd.

Your examples at US Air are pathetic. They lost because they did not have the sort of leadership and organization that the RJDC put together. Now you seem to be amongst the many RJDC supporters that discredit the protection that our unity has brought us.

What happened to all the true believers? Are we just giving up? Is it every man for himself?

At some point, true believers become "realists". The ALG and PDT pilots had the best contracts in the regional industry. They have been shrunk while Mesa, Trans States, and CHQ have grown. The same is happening on the United property with the former ACA and with Air Wisc. currently. Over at NWA, Mesaba has stagnated while Pinnacle has grown. On every property, the highest cost regionals have stagnated at best and vanished at worst.

The CMR pilots struck for 89 days. Management started moving airplanes to ASA and SKYW.

During the last RFP, CMR said no - they didn't get any airplanes.

Do you see a trend here. Doing the "right" thing only gets you some accolades on the flightinfo board.

The RJDC has protected the ASA and CMR pilots from "jets4jobs" and further scope limitations. It has not protected us from the whipsaw. This is the whipsaw plain and simple. It works folks.

In the current form, ALPA has no solidarity.

 

[InclusiveScope]

It's working just fine as far as I'm concerned. The NWA pilots own the NW code, and they can do what they see fit with it. It's none of my business. I just fly the planes and routes that they let me fly. There's nothing wrong with that. It's their flying, not mine. Just as the DL code is owned by the Delta pilots, not you. It's up to DALPA to decide what flying you are allowed to do. Eventually you'll realize that when the judge throws out the last of your claims.

There is the difference between you and me. My job doesn't belong to ALPA, or the Delta MEC, or the Delta pilots. It belongs to me. You have bought into the master/apprentice concept of your job and to the "brand scope" BS from Herndon.

 

[InclusiveScope]

PCL - thank you for stating the obvious. I think you are wrong on the facts, but very correct in the political fall out.

Perhaps getting a fleet guarantee was "inclusive scopes" inclusive scope. I dunno - wish he would explain what he is thinking.

No the fleet guarantee isn't "inclusive scope". It is scope however and it is a beginning for the CMR pilots. Remember, scope is important. The first step to putting this genie back in the bottle is to stop the outsourcing from going any further. The best contract in the world isn't Woerth the paper it is written on if you don't have job security.

Why is it bad when the Delta MEC does it and their pilots ratify it, but OK when the Comair MEC does it and their pilots ratify it?

As for the litigation, the Comair pilots are looking much less like victims and much more like predators. Politics do matter and those on the moral high ground better start defending their positions.

The current environment is "eat or be eaten". It isn't a good environment, but that is the way it is. Maybe if we belonged to a real union, we could stop it. This loose association however is doomed.

 

[PCL_128]

There is the difference between you and me. My job doesn't belong to ALPA, or the Delta MEC, or the Delta pilots. It belongs to me. You have bought into the master/apprentice concept of your job and to the "brand scope" BS from Herndon.

No, the difference between you and me is that I understand my job and you don't. I understand that I work for a company that does contract work for another airline. We don't do our own flying, we do Northwest's flying. The NWA pilots don't own my job, but they do own the NW code flying. Until Pinnacle starts flying under our own code (never gonna happen), then the flying is all controlled by NWA pilots and rightfully so.

What makes you think that you somehow have claim to any flying? The DL code doesn't belong to Comair, it belongs to Delta. As such, it is subject to the DAL PWA. You get the flying that the Delta pilots allow you to have. Nothing less, nothing more. If you don't like that, then go get a job at an airline that does their own flying. Until then, stop your whining and quit trying to bankrupt my union.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

It's the job security, stupid. Plain and simple. This LOA does set up a minimum fleet guarantee which secures the futures of everyone on the list right now, as well as everyone expected to be hired as a result of the growth.

 

[av8tor4239]

Management does not "reward" pilots by buying new airplanes. They buy and aquire new aircraft in order to increase their revenues and profits, the more aircraft flying, the more money an airline makes (as long as there is demand for them). Delta has determined the demand and need for more regional jets, namely 70-seaters. They have already inked a deal with CHQ, allowing CHQ to operate 16 EMB 170's. These aircraft are to be put into service slowly over the next 2 years. This is all that CHQ can afford and logistically put into service. Also, there is a limit to how much flying can be flown for Delta because of their other airline affiliations. In other words, CHQ will not be getting any more jets for Delta for a while. Also, ASA has already got their allotment of orders and logistically cannot receive more at the present time. That leaves Comair. Delta needs Comair to operate more jets, and they will get them.

Comair can aquire new aircraft and will make a nice profit on each one they operate, no matter that the pilots make a little more than others. However, Delta/Comair have been trying to lower their labor costs for a long time, in order to make even more profit. Lowering the labor costs at Comair will, in turn, lower their labor costs at ASA and allow them to demand cheaper contracts from other airline partners.

A deal between Delta and Comair has probably been already made, just not made publicly, although Embraer's stock has already gone up due to an imminent order from Delta/Comair. But, before officially making this deal, they figure why not try to get concessions from the pilots (and FA's) first. They figure pilots will think in order to get new airplanes, they must lower their pay; in other words, fool them. Delta/Comair will get concessions, the planes will come, and everybody will be happy. This way Delta/Comair can kill two birds with one stone: They get new airplanes to increase their revenue, and get a lower labor cost structure from Comair and all their airline partners.

You state that companies don't sit idle, they grow. You're right, and Comair will grow because they are a critical part of Delta's system. Comair has had the highest paid pilots for a long time now, and has been receiving new aircraft and making a nice profit. Currently, they have no aircraft on order, and everyone else does, so logically it is Comair's turn. Delta wants more regional jets and needs Comair to fly them, thus they will get them. Delta is not going to just never allot more aircraft to Comair and allow them to stagnate and not be as profitable as they can be.

Don't you find it strange that Comair already has developed an exact timetable to get new jets? Bottom line, Comair is slated for new jets, and will get them in order to remain profitable to Delta, and they are just using this need for jets and have developed a timetable to trick Comair pilots into thinking they must take concessions in order to actually get them.

Your words are music to my ears!!! Best well written post in 18 pages of post! Thank you

 

[PCL_128]

It's the job security, stupid. Plain and simple. This LOA does set up a minimum fleet guarantee which secures the futures of everyone on the list right now, as well as everyone expected to be hired as a result of the growth.

Oh yeah? Hey DAL737FO and TKBane, how'd those job protection clauses in the DAL contract work out for you guys after 9/11? There are several thousand furloughed pilots out there right now that can explain to you how well these job protection clauses work. If you think that you can assure jobs through concessions then you're dreaming. I can guarantee you that the final language in the LOA will allow some sort of force majeur provisions that make it all but useless. But why am I wasting my breath anyway? We all know that this has nothing to do with job security. It's all about GROWTH. Me, me, me! I want more and bigger airplanes!! Pathetic.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Inclusive Scope - Thank you for your posts.

 

[av8tor4239]

Can anyone post these 18 pages in the Comair Crew Room.. I will put them up in ATL on D and C.. I think Comair guys that have not voted yet sould read this stuff to cut through the Koolaid they have been fed..

 

[KingAirKiddo]

As one of the thousands of pilots who have been on the receiving end of a furlough notice in the post-9/11 era, it is about job security.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Flying horses is the only person on this thread that uses objective logic to support his position. A $10 an hour operating cost difference does not matter one iota in the allocation of jets. Comair is getting the airplanes that are coming to them.

I have no clue if Comair is definitely getting these planes or not...but I would like to point one thing out here reference your above quote. $10/hour might not seem like a lot but lets take a closer look.

-199 jets at 10 hours per day of utilization = 726,350 hours per year for a fleet of that size

-$10/hour increase over that 726,350 hours = $7.3mm (assuming the total crew cost increase was $10 and not per pilot)

-Now we must multiply that number times 30% for reserve coverage, offline instructors, management pilots, etc which gives us $9.4mm

-Lastly we must multiply that number times another 27% or so for the fringe benefit cost associated with such increase (such as medical, social security, medicare, yada yada) which gives us $12mm of increased cost.

-Now this doesn't assume that over time the higher rates will geometrically increase and roll up faster and higher than the lower rate...so there is some cost built in there as well.

-It also assumes that the $10/hour was distributed between both the CA and FO. If it was $10/hour for FO's and $10/hour for CA's, then we are talking equivalently higher costs as well.

So is $12 million per year (probably more actually) enough to sway an aircraft purchase order? I don't know. But $12 million isn't chump change...especially when one considers that the airline they feed is in severe cost cutting mode. Lastly, this analysis is a big-time wag...done on the back of a napkin. My guess is that the number above ($12mm) is lower than what it really is to be perfectly honest. Of course, that assumes a $10/hour total crew cost change.

-Neal

 

[~~~^~~~]

Neal - $10 might be high, but for arguement's sake:

12,000,000
1,500,000,000 = .008

(This is a little higher than figure quoted in the CVG Enquirer, but close enough to add validity )

Yes, less than 1% is chump change. ​

That is the reason why pilots can't buy airplanes. ​

Comair is getting whatever airplanes it was going to get anyway.​

ALPA has an excellent economic analysis department, but they tend not to use the resource when it would give them data contrary to something that they want to do anyway.

The RJDC did write the Comair MEC reminding ( and asking them ) to get economic analysis and asking them to get independent legal counsel when they reviewed management's proposal. ( My faith is coming back ) Perhaps it would have made a difference.

Now consider a dollar a gallon increase in gas - 133 airplanes * 3,600 hours a year * 515 gallons per hour ( average of the 200 & 700 ) = $246,582,000.

$246,582,000
$1,500,000,000 = .16 More than 16%!

Here you have the reason why Fred Buttrell's justification falls short, on an economic basis. So you have to accept that either Fred is writing checks he can not cash, or this is simply a moral victory for management and ALPA.

And Neal - thank you for supporting your contract effort. After Comair's concessions I think you guys are #1 in the industry after seeing another thread. ASA will be there soon