CMR on the move

[chperplt]

Nimrod

In the end, I'm making 37 an hour to fly the same thing you're getting 25 or so to fly... Either way I win.

 

[Rhoid]

I wouldn't be shooting my mouth off about $37 an hour! that's dispicable that anyone would work for such a meager wage. But knowing where you came from it's a raise!

 

[chperplt]

I sure won't get rich off of it, but how is it dispicable?

Not much of a raise from where I came from, but the QOL increase is priceless!

 

[General Lee]

I sure won't get rich off of it, but how is it dispicable?

Not much of a raise from where I came from, but the QOL increase is priceless!

That's what the Skywest guys said.......or at least 2/3 of them did. But, there is the question of what will happen if you say no? Will your flying be farmed out to someone who will take it? Absolutely. We at Delta were faced with imminent court proceedings, and you are faced with losing any growth and losing current aircraft possibly. You know there are other people who would love to take your flying. But, will you take a step back pay wise? You may have to. This will really get interesting in the next few weeks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[chperplt]

But, will you take a step back pay wise?

What do you consider a step back? For me, a freeze is not a step back. For someone else, it may be.

That's what the Skywest guys said.......or at least 2/3 of them did

What did the Skywest guys say?? They won't get rich off of it or that it isn't dispicable?

How can you compare Skywest to us? Are we flying 70s for the same price as a 50?

 

[General Lee]

No, what you said sounded like what the majority of the Skywest pilots said with their votes. (What I quoted you saying) A pay freeze really isn't a step back, unless you were supposed to get a pay increase, and then it would be. I am just saying that the next three weeks should be interesting for you guys. Maybe that will be good, or maybe bad. That will be up to you. This whole industry seems to be changing everyday.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dvmthwsvan]

To go along with the theory we will get the planes anyway, i heard, and didnt think anything of it, about three to four weeks ago from a captain i was flying with. he said that he was talking to an Indy crew that swore up and down that Comair had bought 12 of their RJ's. didnt think anything of it till now. Just thought i'd mention it.

 

[P38JLightning]

J4j?

64J,

>>>
Originally Posted by P38JLightning

Quote:
Originally Posted by N2264J
>>>Personally, I wouldn't want to sign on to a pay freeze until we all understand where the Delta furloughees fit into this deal.<<<




At the bottom of our list, if they choose to take the interview and if Comair management decides to hire them, unless we choose to modify our contract to allow otherwise (not even mentioned, much less in relation to this latest proposal)...Carpe Diem.



That's not quite how it worked out at PSA and the fact that it wasn't mentioned is no less cause for concern. It isn't growth if Comair pilots aren't flying the planes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


Okay, again, they did chose to modify their PWA's which allowed to happen what happened. But, let's say your interpretation is correct (that the mainline can just arbitrarily do whatever they want). Then according to your theory, the mainline can already do whatever they want, right?

So what's stopping them?

The RJDC?

Okay, again, using your theory, the RJDC would still stop them, even under a pay freeze.

Your circle of logic just doesn't make sense. If they can do it now they can do it under a pay freeze. If the RJDC is stopping them, the RJDC will stop them regardless.

Oh and nimrod,

Why are you so threatened about a Comair pay freeze? If you work at Chautauqua you have negotiated a very agressive growth contract that has directly resulted in the cancellation of massive ammounts of Comair options that have been reallocated (albeit under a different manufacturer, but a DCI slot just the same) that has resulted in you getting DCI growth to the point of one of the most junior upgrades in the industry. You will grow the rest of this decade to an extent not seen by many "regional" airlines in history because of the grow by any means necessary contract your group voted in place.

Is a 12 or 18 month jet captain upgrade or E-170 new hire situation not good enough for you? Should we fall on our swords so you can get 8 or 6 month upgrades, or street hire E-170 captains even?

We have not only raised the bar but have set the bar and kept it there for years. All the while no one has passed us, despite numerous contracts being negotiated since then, even including one under the threat of an immediate strike. All everyone seems to be willing to do is get close to what we got, but always, always just a little bit below us. Its like saying gee thanks, we appreciate you holding the bar up so that we can have a more comfortable standard of living when we ultimately underbid you.

That, my friend, is hypocracy.

This pay freeze may or may not pass, or may or may not even go for a vote. We will run it by our last remaining hope, our ASA brothers, to see what they think. If they are cool with it, expect us to give it serious consideration. We need to get DCI's future back in our hands and out of the hands of the low bidder lorenzo style "air groups" out there. If someone doesn't stop this race to the bottom that "major" you are building time trying to get to won't be worth squat in 5 or 10 years from now when the bottom feeders have large fleets of E-170, E-190 and God forbid 737 or 717's at "Comair minus" 50 seat pay rates. In case you haven't noticed that has been the "trend vector" for the last 3+ years, without exception.

We have been happy to raise and keep high our end of the profession, but in general, and within DCI in particular, its beginning to look like it might be time for some painful chemotherapy. If you were us, what would you suggest we do?

 

[DDpaysoff]

All i know is tht if it passes evey cmr pilot who has ever bad mouthed any contract carrier pilot is a two faced spineless piece of garbage. You guys wanted the best contract and you got it. Well as a result your stagnant. You guys are all so proud of your industry leading pay. What a f'ing joke. Jokers.

So Comair would be taking 'your' flying. WTF?

It will still be the an industry leading contract two years from now and that is sad. CMR is making the bar more approachable for those who haven't been able to raise it. You freeze pay and keep:
401k match
company funded retirement (yes, it actually exists)
trip rig
duty rig
min day rig
commuter clause
100% pay protection
100% deadhead pay
1 additional year before negotiations begin....that is good news look around.
I thought they were going to go after all that.

One note of caution, I can see delta consolidating all crj700's on one wholly owned's property and the other flying the = number of E-170's. So "growth a/c" needs to be the language if a deal is made. Also, the implications to ASA need to be discussed by the respective MEC's. I'm betting if they could get the contract comair has now they would take it an run, but I don't know.

 

[N2264J]

Okay, again, they did chose to modify their PWA's which allowed to happen what happened. But, let's say your interpretation is correct (that the mainline can just arbitrarily do whatever they want). Then according to your theory, the mainline can already do whatever they want, right?

So what's stopping them? The RJDC?

First, the PSA pilots agreed to the concept that the U furloughees would be on the bottom of their list. They didn't get the chance to voice their opinion, however, about the slotted bidding protocol which essentially displaced 50% of the PSA pilots.

But to your point - we are about to find out exactly what the deterrent effect of the lawsuit is: ie will the litigation resolution remain primarily injunctive relief or will it turn into a damages suit?

Okay, again, using your theory, the RJDC would still stop them, even under a pay freeze.

We'll see. But personally, I don't want to sign on to a pay freeze if Delta furloughees are able to bid ahead of you or any other Comair pilot. Everyone is assuming they're coming in at the bottom of the list, including our MEC. All I'm saying is: we don't know that yet and the violation of our seniority list ought to be a deal breaker.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Chautauqua 5 year 70 seat captain rates (Current): $66.00
Comair 5 year 70 seat captain rates (Current): 74.94

..........2 years later.........

Chautaqua 7 year 70 seat captain rates: 70.00
Comair 5 year 70 seat captain rates (frozen): 74.94

This is from airline pilot pay.com, so if it's innacurate talk to them.

 

[FDJ2]

First, the PSA pilots agreed to the concept that the U furloughees would be on the bottom of their list. They didn't get the chance to voice their opinion, however, about the slotted bidding protocol which essentially displaced 50% of the PSA pilots.

Not true again.

PSA ALPA Pilots Reach Agreement on 70-Seat Jets

DAYTON, OH -- The PSA Airlines pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), International, late last week approved a letter of agreement (LOA) with their management, spelling out the terms and conditions for operating 70-seat jets. By a vote of 8-1, the pilot leadership ratified the proposal.

"We are extremely pleased to reach a settlement with our management for this aircraft" said Capt. William Barnett, secretary-treasurer of the PSA pilots’ unit of ALPA. "We want to see PSA prosper and grow. The operation of these larger jets will help us to provide better service and coverage for our portion of the US Airways network."

The LOA provides for the extension of the 50-50 staffing ratio, as outlined in the Jets for Jobs protocol with US Airways and its pilots. Under this arrangement, furloughed US Airways pilots are entitled to fill half of the positions assigned to this aircraft, per the limitations of this agreement. The PSA pilots will staff the remaining half of these positions. The LOA also provides positive reserve rule changes and other quality-of-life improvements for PSA pilots.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Not true again.

PSA ALPA Pilots Reach Agreement on 70-Seat Jets

DAYTON, OH -- The PSA Airlines pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), International, late last week approved a letter of agreement (LOA) with their management, spelling out the terms and conditions for operating 70-seat jets. By a vote of 8-1, the pilot leadership ratified the proposal.

"We are extremely pleased to reach a settlement with our management for this aircraft" said Capt. William Barnett, secretary-treasurer of the PSA pilots’ unit of ALPA. "We want to see PSA prosper and grow. The operation of these larger jets will help us to provide better service and coverage for our portion of the US Airways network."

The LOA provides for the extension of the 50-50 staffing ratio, as outlined in the Jets for Jobs protocol with US Airways and its pilots.

This does not justify your point. This was rammed down the throats of the PSA pilots and when does such a plan not get ratified by the membership? When is such an agreement announced by the Secretary - Treasurer? When ALPA National steps in to railroad the local membership and force jets for jobs without their consent.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That's not quite how it worked out at PSA and the fact that it wasn't mentioned is no less cause for concern. It isn't growth if Comair pilots aren't flying the planes.

You got an "Amen" there. Preach on Brother!

 

[Flying Horses]

Chautauqua 5 year 70 seat captain rates (Current): $66.00
Comair 5 year 70 seat captain rates (Current): 74.94

..........2 years later.........

Chautaqua 7 year 70 seat captain rates: 70.00
Comair 5 year 70 seat captain rates (frozen): 74.94

This is from airline pilot pay.com, so if it's innacurate talk to them.

You are not considering DOS pay increases, so your numbers are inaccurate.

See this post:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=514844&postcount=78

 

[FDJ2]

This does not justify your point. This was rammed down the throats of the PSA pilots and when does such a plan not get ratified by the membershiP.

More rhetoric devoid of any fact.

You incorrectly stated that the mainline unilaterally changed the PSA PWA to accommodate the J4J protocol. You were proven WRONG.

You then incorrectly stated that the PSA pilots did not know the 50-50 protocol when they agreed to J4J. WRONG AGAIN.

You are now stating that because the membership in general didn't ratify the agreement it was some how rammed down their throats. WRONG A THIRD TIME.

This may be news to you, but membership ratification is not in place at all ALPA bargaining units. That is up to each ALPA bargaining unit to determine. Also, even when membership ratification is in place, if the MEC does not believe the agreement significantly effects pay, job security and retirement the MEC can ratify an agreement. This is not at all unusual. You haven't been right yet.

 

[FDJ2]

You got an "Amen" there. Preach on Brother!

It would be nice if what he was preaching had any basis in fact, but I guess you cultist don't much worry about that.

 

[doh]

When I got hired at CMR I was an FA with NWA. I had access to tons of industry stuff. I thiught I was making a rational informed decision. Hah, was I naive! Do you know I actually thought that in a couple of years I would be back at NWA!? CHQ is just living in the world that is this business. WE (CMR) have to live here too. If this pony gets ridden it's because we have to face some ugly realities to try and get some semblance of control (is that even a concept now) over the growth that ain't coming to us any other way. Some people are going to get hammered over their bottom feeding comments of yesteryear. But we still have to deal with this situation some how. I don't think any of us feel in control right now, General how 'bout you?

 

[DDpaysoff]

You are not considering DOS pay increases, so your numbers are inaccurate.

See this post:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showpost.php?p=514844&postcount=78

Yeah, I was unable to find out the contractual yearly increases on that website. I figure those numbers will both be around 74 and change two years from now. From Fred's mouth, after the two year payfreeze the increases start again. It's a moot point anyway, because next time around Comair pilots will not be negotiating on their own rates, but rather whatever the rest of the industry is working for at that time. The longer the amount of time Comair has before it really gets into negotiations the better it is for everybody involved. It gives other carriers opportunities to take the torch and run, and keeps comair from negotiating down on their leading rates to be more competitive with the rest of the industry. This equalizes out the industry for two years only and gets comair back on the growth track. It gives Delta more leverage to what they pay contract carriers per departure as well. Otherwise, Comair will go away, slowly and loudly as usual.

 

[General Lee]

doh,


Nope. I feel like I am riding this horse without a saddle. The last year has seen so much change, it amazes me every day.


Bye Bye--General Lee