CMR on the move

[Tim47SIP]

This attitude that some here have that management can NEVER be trusted could get you into trouble. MOST management can't be trusted, but professionalism needs to prevail. You need to give Fred a chance. If he screws you, then the chips have been put on the table and you know where he stands. If you go into this with an astounding NO because management just cant be trusted, then you will continue on the path you are on now. You have been offered a pay freeze, not a reduction. Why does a pay freeze need to be agreed to when Delta already knows where the aircraft are going? Easy, to acquire the aircraft, a stable economic base has to be established. Your CASM is the lowest right now, and they need to keep it that way. You start negotiations in a year, Delta needs to know what the specific costs will be over a specified period of time. That is why a freeze and extention. That freeze helps the industry because Delta is dropping their proposal for a reduction in pay. ASA said no to an extension and still got 25 aircraft. We wont know if we could have gotten all 45. Skip stated that he proposed the RFP with an increased compensation amount based on possible contract agreements. In other words, Delta needs to ensure that they do not have a dramatic increase in costs after the purchase of these aircaft. Planning!

Remember, the Delta pilots gave in December and the rest of the mainline employees got a 10% reduction this month accross the board including other decreasses in compensation. They could have easily come to us and asked for the same. It now gives ASA a little bit better leverage to negotiate up to your level since Delta is going with that level of compensation.

Should you go into this fully trusting? Absolutely NOT! Get your concerns put in writing and see if he keeps his part of the deal. If he does not, you have weeded out another Lorenzo. If he keeps his word, then you can trust him for another deal. Sometimes all it requires is an act of good will to get both sides working together.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Where did you get your info about us being able to fly for others? That is not correct. It has nothing to do with scope. It has to do with mgt.

Which mangagement?

The one we negotiate with?

or

The one that controls us?

You refuse to look at this with an open mind, therefore I will save my breath and my time.

 

[172driver]

Heck no we are not overpaid. But, are we competitive? Will we be competitive in an environment where we can market our own product or fly on somebody elses code? Remember, Delta's scope now allows us to do that, even as a wholly owned carrier.

And, are we competitive enough that DAL mgmt is willing to swallow their pride, admit that they should never have asked, and take on $600M more debt to provide us some growth? Or, would it be easier to slap us in the face, take on zero debt, allow CHQ to fly all new 170's for them, and blame it all on us?

AFellow,

You remind me of the guy I flew with who said, "I will never take concessions of any type because I've got mine already. I'm a captain and a lineholder and don't need more than that." I don't often hear that kind of attitude at CMR and it is not a wise thing to say around a junior FO. How did you get yours? Because others were looking out for you as well as themselves.

Reading the negotiated proposal and turning it down is one thing but blindly saying no to any concession is another entirely. The expectation that we will be rewarded if we say no is utterly ridiculous.

Fins,

Are you saying that ASA would decline a Year 4 CMR contract if guaranteed in writing 35 new airframes, including 170's?

We are not 'competing' with CHQ in some kind of race or 'ponzi scheme.' We are not undercutting them, nor are we coming close. Our rates, frozen at today's level, still top theirs at the end of their scale (10/07). If every pilot group who negotiates remains or gains a place at the top of the industry, we don't have a problem. Now, it's your turn. Git-r-done.

 

[Sinca3]

To all Comair guys and gals......
I don't distrust managment but I don't trust them either! That being said I think everyone at Comair needs to really think about the whole picture with what is being done to you.
When Leo left DAL and GG came in what was he there to do? Well he's doing it and has halfway succeeded. DAL pilots took a 30% pay cut, now this isn't to say that some kind of give backs weren't in order. I'm just pointing out the similarities between what has transpired at big D and what is happining at Comair.
FB has been sent over to Comair to regain "control" or the belief of having control of the employee groups. Once they are controlled then they managment types can continue to lay waste to your contracts and working conditions.
Would more a/c at Comair improve working conditions? Well yeah to an extent. Are the short term gains (2-3yrs) worth the longer term losses (5-10yrs) I know many are still aspiring to move on to bigger and better careers in the industry. Just remeber that many of those ahead of you thought the same thing. The most important thing in this industry is to think about the long term and the consequences that are incurred by the short term gains.
I honestly don't think that DAL is going to let Comair wither away! Will Comair be sold.....possibly. Can they be merged into another carrier? Sure. Would these be desireable outcomes? Maybe Maybe not but either way you will still have the spoils of your hard earned contract.
FB is a "Minie Me" of GG. He has the same job as GG. He is using the same play book as GG. The only difference is YOU ARE PROFITABLE. Let the people that run your airline run the airline. Let them find other ways to save money, that's their jobs!! Don't think that the only way for Comair to prosper is on the backs of the very people that work day in and day out for the company.
Ask yourselves these two questions:
Am I over paid for the work that I currently do?
Would any of the give backs/pay freezes that are being considered harm the future of your airline if not agreed to?
If you honestly believe yes to either of these questions then I guess all the sacrifices you have made along the way were in vain.
Good luck to ya.....

 

[DDpaysoff]

There will be 125 new 70 seat captain slots at 70 seat captain pay. So 125 people will get a raise there, and increase everybody's potential future earnings by having more 70 seat slots to slide into. It is not about Junior vs Senior. Although, I expect to hear something like that tomorrow p.m. in an email.

This whole thing is about arrogance vs intelligence, ego vs power, cooperation vs stubborness. I agree with Jetflyer, it is about control. Delta wants to give comair the jets, they just want to see some cooperation from the pilot group to give them a sense of long term stability.

It's is silly and immature to say no or yes, without being presented with all the facts, potential implications, and possible pitfalls. Then let the group vote. Anybody who jumps to conclusions or refuses to listen to a proposal in good faith is probably lucky to have their job and be allowed out in public without some sort of restraining device.

 

[172driver]

Am I over paid for the work that I currently do?
Would any of the give backs/pay freezes that are being considered harm the future of your airline if not agreed to?

1. No, if you ask me, but I think you would be hard pressed to find a single individual in this country who thinks they're overpaid, so it's kind of a pointless question. The only way you can decide if somebody is overpaid is to compare their wages relative to the market. Unfortunately, since other pilot groups feel they are worth so much less than us, it brings our value down.

2. The real question is would the givebacks, if not agreed to, harm the future of the CMR pilot group? If agreed to, how much will they help?As DD points out, we will not be able to answer this question until we see what is being asked for and promised in return.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins,

Are you saying that ASA would decline a Year 4 CMR contract if guaranteed in writing 35 new airframes, including 170's?

I would vote yes to match Comair. I would vote No on the ideas I have read that would diminish the Comair contract, on principle. If the Comair guys fold, then there would be no more Comair contract to support and I would fold. That is my point.

Fins,

If every pilot group who negotiates remains or gains a place at the top of the industry, we don't have a problem. Now, it's your turn. Git-r-done.

Exactly! Let us hope Comair does not agree to the concessions and undermine ASA.

If I were the negotiating comm chairman for either ASA, or Comair, I'd insist on negotiating a deal with Delta. Neither ASA, or Comair, has operational control of their airlines any more. Negotiating with either management team is a waste - nothing gets accomplished until Delta gets involved. As ASA's history have proven repeatedly, by the time Virginia Avenue takes notice the Indians are running amok on the reservation.

 

[ACE]

I would vote yes to match Comair. I would vote No on the ideas I have read that would diminish the Comair contract, on principle. If the Comair guys fold, then there would be no more Comair contract to support and I would fold. That is my point.
Exactly! Let us hope Comair does not agree to the concessions and undermine ASA.

If I were the negotiating comm chairman for either ASA, or Comair, I'd insist on negotiating a deal with Delta. Neither ASA, or Comair, has operational control of their airlines any more. Negotiating with either management team is a waste - nothing gets accomplished until Delta gets involved. As ASA's history have proven repeatedly, by the time Virginia Avenue takes notice the Indians are running amok on the reservation.

We will not undermine the ASA negotiations. It is looking like a NO vote as it stands with the information we have right now. That seems to be the consensus anyway.

 

[bvt1151]

The "No"'s are just louder than the "Yes"'s.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

This attitude that some here have that management can NEVER be trusted could get you into trouble. MOST management can't be trusted, but professionalism needs to prevail. You need to give Fred a chance. If he screws you, then the chips have been put on the table and you know where he stands. If you go into this with an astounding NO because management just cant be trusted, then you will continue on the path you are on now. You have been offered a pay freeze, not a reduction. Why does a pay freeze need to be agreed to when Delta already knows where the aircraft are going? Easy, to acquire the aircraft, a stable economic base has to be established. Your CASM is the lowest right now, and they need to keep it that way. You start negotiations in a year, Delta needs to know what the specific costs will be over a specified period of time. That is why a freeze and extention. That freeze helps the industry because Delta is dropping their proposal for a reduction in pay. ASA said no to an extension and still got 25 aircraft. We wont know if we could have gotten all 45. Skip stated that he proposed the RFP with an increased compensation amount based on possible contract agreements. In other words, Delta needs to ensure that they do not have a dramatic increase in costs after the purchase of these aircaft. Planning!

Remember, the Delta pilots gave in December and the rest of the mainline employees got a 10% reduction this month accross the board including other decreasses in compensation. They could have easily come to us and asked for the same. It now gives ASA a little bit better leverage to negotiate up to your level since Delta is going with that level of compensation.

Should you go into this fully trusting? Absolutely NOT! Get your concerns put in writing and see if he keeps his part of the deal. If he does not, you have weeded out another Lorenzo. If he keeps his word, then you can trust him for another deal. Sometimes all it requires is an act of good will to get both sides working together.

Portfolio Fred has already been caught in several lies, the bogus RFP being the biggest. He has zero credibility in my eyes and I refuse to partake of his KoolAid

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Which mangagement?

The one we negotiate with?

or

The one that controls us?

You refuse to look at this with an open mind, therefore I will save my breath and my time.

Sound good to me.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Quote thing did not work.......He said:

You remind me of the guy I flew with who said, "I will never take concessions of any type because I've got mine already. I'm a captain and a lineholder and don't need more than that." I don't often hear that kind of attitude at CMR and it is not a wise thing to say around a junior FO. How did you get yours? Because others were looking out for you as well as themselves.




I said:


I'm not sure of how to respond to that one. .........So, instead of working your way up the list like us "senior Captains" did, you would rather us "Senior Captains" take a major pay cut to subsidize your climb up the seniority list..make it quicker, if you will. I don't recall any pilots senior to me paying out of their pockets so I could upgrade any quicker.
I think that is what you said.

It is a pay cut. I WILL get a pay increase in June unless you people sell us all down the river. Not maybe, or if the moon is full, but for sure. It is in our conract we fought our asses off for.


He said:

Reading the negotiated proposal and turning it down is one thing but blindly saying no to any concession is another entirely. The expectation that we will be rewarded if we say no is utterly ridiculous.

I said:


Tell the ASA pilots that. They were fed this same crap last year and said hell no. Then they got 25 airplanes.Hello?

.[/QUOTE]

 

[N2264J]

You know, you're right, I mistakenly attributed "N's" incorrect delcaration for yours.

You're mistaken alright. You mistakenly attributed stuff I didn't say to me.

You incorrectly stated that the mainline unilaterally changed the PSA PWA to accommodate the J4J protocol. You were proven WRONG.

What I said was:
>>>At PSA, the contract was unilaterally modified by the mainline union and management after the PSA pilots signed off on it.<<<

You then

incorrectly stated that the PSA pilots did not know the 50-50 protocol when they agreed to J4J. WRONG AGAIN.

What I said was:
>>>First, the PSA pilots agreed to the concept that the U furloughees would be on the bottom of their list. They didn't get the chance to voice their opinion, however, about the slotted bidding protocol which essentially displaced 50% of the PSA pilots.<<<

You are now stating that because the membership in general didn't ratify the agreement it was some how rammed down their throats. WRONG A THIRD TIME. You haven't been right yet.

Here's a link to the PSA Pilots Alliance website:

http://www.psapilotalliance.8m.com/custom.html

Here's the Piedmont/Allegheny complaint. Jets for Jobs start on page 34 and paragraphs 270 - 287 starting on page 39 is compelling.

http://www.pilots4fair.freeservers.com/complaint.pdf

 

[FDJ2]

You're mistaken alright. You mistakenly attributed stuff I didn't say to me.

[/color]

What I said was:
>>>At PSA, the contract was unilaterally modified by the mainline union and management after the PSA pilots signed off on it.<<<





What I said was:
>>>First, the PSA pilots agreed to the concept that the U furloughees would be on the bottom of their list. They didn't get the chance to voice their opinion, however, about the slotted bidding protocol which essentially displaced 50% of the PSA pilots.<<<

What you are stating does not jive with the statement issued by the PSA pilot representatives or labor law. You're still wrong, the mainline union can not unilaterally modify the PSA contract, only the PSA pilots, through their ratification process can modify their contract with their management. Additionally, the PSA pilots were aware of the J4J protocol when they chose to ratify their TA.

PSA ALPA Pilots Reach Agreement on 70-Seat Jets

DAYTON, OH -- The PSA Airlines pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), International, late last week approved a letter of agreement (LOA) with their management, spelling out the terms and conditions for operating 70-seat jets. By a vote of 8-1, the pilot leadership ratified the proposal.

"We are extremely pleased to reach a settlement with our management for this aircraft" said Capt. William Barnett, secretary-treasurer of the PSA pilots’ unit of ALPA. "We want to see PSA prosper and grow. The operation of these larger jets will help us to provide better service and coverage for our portion of the US Airways network."

The LOA provides for the extension of the 50-50 staffing ratio, as outlined in the Jets for Jobs protocol with US Airways and its pilots. Under this arrangement, furloughed US Airways pilots are entitled to fill half of the positions assigned to this aircraft, per the limitations of this agreement. The PSA pilots will staff the remaining half of these positions. The LOA also provides positive reserve rule changes and other quality-of-life improvements for PSA pilots."

You can characterize this agreement any way you like, but at the end of the day no one ever authorized you to speak for the PSA pilots, unlike Capt. Barnett, and as a representative of the PSA pilots he is contradicting your rhetoric with his statements. This TA received overwhelming support of the PSA pilot representatives and they were extremely pleased to reach this settlement with their management.


As for using RJDC spin and complaints as evidence that is laughable at best, the RJDC has a history of making false claims in court. Judge Glasser summarily dismissed 6 RJDC claims for just such a reason. It's funny to read how Dan Ford and his attorneys kept changing their story on those claims as the judge shot them down.

 

[CMRoutlaw]

It is just as much a big deal for senior captains, junior captains, senior F/O's and junior F/O. That was the major focus of what I had to say. We as a pilot group cannot have some members of our family that are more important than other members. We're all in this together. You don't seem to realize that.

What do you mean I don't seem to realize that? What you are really saying is that I must not realize that because I disagree with you. I'm not saying we should say yes because it would help me more than others...I think we should say yes because I truly believe it is in the best interest for all of us 5 to 10 years from now. What you and others don't seem to get is that the consequences of saying no could be FAR GREATER for the FO's and junior people at this company. If this company continues to stagnate or shrink, we are the ones who will be affected the most while the senior pilots will barely be scathed. So you can't say this is all equally about us when you are happy with the status quo while others are not. Some of us can't help but wonder if a lot of senior folks are really motivated at protecting their wallets while nicely dressing up their arguement all in the name of "protecting the profession". You see I think that's just as short sighted as some senior FO just wanting an upgrade and I will fight with equal passion against it.

And the RFP was not a debacle. At that time, the decision to hold the line was the right decision.

I'm not saying the RFP decision was the wrong decision...I was not happy with the way it was handled by our MEC. The story that was communicated by ALPA to the pilots was that mgt wanted concessions for the "possibility of growth". In reality these concessions only would have kicked in when the aircraft were on the property. A key point that it would have been nice for us to know, don't you think? I was also told that I WOULD get to vote in the end and yet a vote never came up. After the message we recieved from the MEC today, I'm afraid we're heading down the same road. The message: "It is also possible that management and your association may not come to an agreement. Keep in mind that it always has been your MECs duty to determine whether any agreement is adequate to bring to you (the pilots) for a ratification vote." That's right Comair pilots...what is possibly the biggest issue facing us in years and your MEC may arbritrarilly decide you aren't smart enough to decide for yourselves the direction we should go. We should demand this comes to a vote.

I'm not a "hardliner". I did not ask you to "shut your mouth" and I would not want you to do that. As long as you remain a Comair pilot you have a right to express your opinion on any issue that we face and disagreement does not upset me. However, attempts to divide the pilot group against itself and create factions based on self-interest does upset me, and I will do all I can to prevent that. In truth, I resent attempts to destroy our unity far more than anything else I can think of.

I never labeled you individually as a hardliner but you do help to illustrate my point. You tell me I'm free to express my opinion but you then turn around and accuse me of destroying pilot unity. Well if I truly care about this company as much as you do but I belieive in my heart of hearts that we should give Fred a fair shake, then how the h*%! should I express it without being accused of being a "divider"?

 

[doh]

Outlaw,

The original concession for growth thing was worded such that ONE airplane would have caused the pay cuts to kick in. After that we would have been dependent on Kermit's honesty and integrity to see any more growth! Well, I for one am not taking a hit off that crack pipe!

 

[CMRoutlaw]

So, instead of working your way up the list like us "senior Captains" did, you would rather us "Senior Captains" take a major pay cut to subsidize your climb up the seniority list..make it quicker, if you will. I don't recall any pilots senior to me paying out of their pockets so I could upgrade any quicker.

They absolutley did pay out of their pocket...it was called PAY FOR TRAINING. Of course this was before they became Captains at which time they suddenly became preachers of protecting the profession. For those who didn't PFT, at least their progression was during times of competitive wages. I'm not saying we lower the bar, I'm just saying we give mgt some flexibility...we'll still be the highest.

It is a pay cut. I WILL get a pay increase in June unless you people sell us all down the river.

[/QUOTE]

If the MEC says no to this without a vote, don't you think that 90% of the FO's at Comair will think that YOU SOLD THEM down the river. I guess it's okay for SOMEBODY ELSE to spend a career at eternal FO dom as long as you get your measely few bucks an hour. What a crock.

 

[CheapFlyer]

I guess it's okay for SOMEBODY ELSE to spend a career at eternal FO dom as long as you get your measely few bucks an hour. What a crock.

CMRoutlaw,

The 50 to 70 seater market will not grow forever. As someone stated, will we all have to give concessions AGAIN to get the next batch of new hires a quicker upgrade? Then AGAIN for the next batch, then again, then again....

Listen, its real simple - if you are solely looking for a quick upgrade go to CHQ or Mesa. Do not forget that Comair pilots went on strike for 3 months (with no pay) to get pay up to a respectable hourly rate.

This proposal will affect the people on the pilot list in different ways depending on where they sit on the list. Please don't give someone else an attitude because he/she feels different than you do.

-CF

 

[Sinca3]

CMRoutlaw,
Do not forget that Comair pilots went on strike for 3 months (with no pay) to get pay up to a respectable hourly rate.
-CF

Well not exactely....you did get $$ from good ole ALPA. Actually for the new hires it was a pay increase!

 

[sleeve]

Please don't give someone else an attitude because he/she feels different than you do.


thats exactly what most of the senior guys have been doing to us FO's all along... giving an attitude.. I had one guy ask me "why I wanted to upgrade anyway? So I can gp on to JetBlue?" My answer..yes thats exactly what I hope to do, got a problem with that! Its not my fault some of them have been to scared to leave Comair, now they have to fight over every nickel and dime. And bitch about everything.