Buffett Bites Back at NetJets Pilot Complaints

[Diesel]

Not enough pilots available for that to happen, hopefully.

G3dude you're back. How was Omaha? Did you have a good time walking with our fellow brothers and sisters?

 

[Diesel]

That is great news, if true. How do you know this?

Because I stay involved and updated.

I don't just hope for better things to come.

 

[Diesel]

While I generally agree with your post, I do not think that there is a qualitative difference between most pilot groups. The vast majority of pilots, regardless of company, do a very good job of flying airplanes.

What differentiates NetJets pilots from other pilots is the fact that we:

1. Operate in a "hostile environment". I.E. 5500 airports in conus that airlines don't serve and, in many cases, provide minimal support/infrastructure.

2. Fly long and hard. Our seven day trips are MUCH harder/tiring/trying than airline trips. (30 years experience in the airline speaking here.)

3. Remain flexible and can quickly respond to an ever-changing game plan.

4. Provide personalized service taylored to each individual owner.

The question is: "What are these differences worth?"

The answer will be negotiated.

5. We are the baggage handler, dispatcher, fueler, car rental getter, baggage off loader, cleaner, fa, and pilot

 

[fischman]

We are heroic.

Heroic? Hell yes!

Realityman -- I hate to burst your bubble and have you return to reality .. but that is not heroic. Getting shot at while you fly like Semore Butts, Gunfyter and countless others on here is heoric -- and thank you guys. In flying passenger jets you are just doing a darn great job which I truly appreciate -- but you are not a hero to me.

Not to belittle the service of our vets, which is awesome, respectfully, I have to disagree with you. My passengers who experiences a rapid decompression at 39,000 were glad to be alive when I safely got them on the ground. Also, when the thrust reverser deployed at 24,000 and 300 knots, I think I got a few "atta boy". On a day to day basis are we heroic? No! But we are when you need us to be. Was Sully heroic when he landed 1549 on the Hudson? (or is it "in" the Hudson? I don't know.) Many think so.

One doesn't need to be shot at to be heroic.

Before everyone flames me, you know I think the NJA pilots should be paid more. I just think many of the arguments being used to justify higher wages are not sound or convincing (we should be paid more because (1) NJ makes lots of $$, (2) BH and WB have lots of $$ and won't miss it, (3) owners can afford to pay more, (4) other guys get paid more so we should too). I am not saying these are the only arguments the pilots are putting forward -- but they are the leading and most popular ones.

Don't try to be like the others and get paid like some of them. DIFFERENTIATE the NJ pilots (more than just we work hard or have experience), convince management (ok that may be difficult as we have problems with them too) and NJ share owners that you are close to being IRREPLACEABLE and even different from the ego-case flying the Delta 737, and that it is this core group which can UNIQUELY deliver this service to the company and therefore, the share owners, and that the share owners DEMAND pilots of your caliber.

Here's where NJA pilots are different. I'm a NJA pilot. I am awesome. No , one else has me. Mind BLOWN...

THAT just happened...

At the risk of being an egomaniac :erm:, there is a HUGE difference between being a pilot, and being a NetJets pilot. Not every pilot can do what we do so well.

 

[jonjuan]

I never took fire (excluding friendly fire in training exercise screwup).

The simple equation I think is this.

NJ employs ATPs with certain level of experience and this happens to be exactly the same as the Major Airlines and LCCs.

I don't see any reason the Walmart Shoppers riding on a LCC should be paying a higher rate to their pilots than the folks who attended the Berkshire Convention pay.

Sure, but most Major Airlines require a college degree.

 

[pilotyip]

Sure, but most Major Airlines require a college degree.

Very true, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Anything below the top 6 or 7 airlines, the lack of a degree is not a show stopper.

 

[gunfyter]

Do many pilots not have a college degree?

 

[T-1GUY]

oh Jeeese, here we go again

 

[Diesel]

Where is that dead horse?

 

[pilotyip]

oh Jeeese, here we go again

Hey, not my fault I did not brign up the college degree thing, but if someone posts and wants info I am more than glad to help my fellow pilots. This is what it is all about pilots helping pilots.

 

[T-1GUY]

Just to save five pages here is the summary:

You don't need a college degree to fly.

You won't get an interview at several majors without one.

There you go...

 

[NJAowner]

My passengers who experiences a rapid decompression at 39,000 were glad to be alive when I safely got them on the ground. Also, when the thrust reverser deployed at 24,000 and 300 knots, I think I got a few "atta boy"

Fisch -- I will give you 2 attaboys for those. Great job. (But I am not sure if I want to fly with you for your amazing abilities or not fly with you because of the frequency you need to use your amazing abilities -- NOTE TO ALL -- read sarcasm in those comments).

Make the owners aware of these situations without "killing to golden goose". Honestly, that is why the owners want you in front. Like that old presidential election commercial -- "Who do you want to answer the hotline in the White House if it rings at 3 a.m". -- Who do you want flying your plane when sh!t happens??? - This is part of making the owners knowledgable about what you guys do and why we should demand you. Not just picketing saying "I don't like that I have to pay more for healthcare". Owners will respond (and pressure management) for the former -- and generally don't give a crap about the latter.

 

[flex*wife]

No, but there will be enough sell-off lift available to cover the trips. EJM, TMC and other 3rd parties, and don't forget Options/Flex fly charter through KR's broker company. And you can't count on the Options/Flex pilots spiking the trips - they won't even know these are NJ owners they're flying. It'll just say Mr & Mrs Smith or XYZ Corp on the manifest. NJ's not the operator in the case of a sell-off, they just act as a charter broker, to the crew never need know where it came from. And you can be sure the pax will be briefed not to reveal it, either, if they don't want a departure time break.

So in the event of a strike, a Frax pilot union has even less leverage than an airline union. At least with an airline, lost trips = 100% lost revenue. With a Frax, monthly management fees are still coming in, the company just loses the hourly trip charges. That'll still be an expensive proposition for NJ, but if they're determined to break a strike and Hansell has WB convinced that it's a cost saver long-term, they'll probably be willing to burn cash for a while. As already stated, could get real ugly, real fast.

Not meaning to divert this thread (it is quite an education and I commend all you NJA guys sticking to your guns) but in regard to the above, now with Flight Options in renegotiations, TMC working on a TA and Flex not far behind what provisions have y'all made to discuss contract "givens" that you should adhere to industry wide?

Kind of like a scab list but for practices.

For instance, NJASAP requires they not use hotels etc if there are striking workers and other type "sympathy" strike situations.

Why couldn't everyone just require in their new contracts that in the event of strikes, sell offs cannot be traded (even through intermediaries) to other union shops without severe penalties. Then you will get more bang for the buck similar to the legacy carriers...

Is there a common meeting grounds for the councils? If not there should be...

That would be a huge advantage of a singular fractional Union entity like the 1108 but i'm not trying to start trouble, just an observation. Still, you wouldn't need to all be 1108 just to agree on some basic agendas that benefit everyone.

 

[pilotyip]

Just to save five pages here is the summary:

You don't need a college degree to fly.

You won't get an interview at several majors without one.

There you go...

Isn't that exactly what I said?

"Very true, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Anything below the top 6 or 7 airlines, the lack of a degree is not a show stopper".

 

[realityman]

Bluenose,

There absolutely will NOT be enough supplemental lift available to cover even 3/4 of our flights if we strike.

I suppose a lot depends on how many of our own pilots are willing to cross the line and scab. But I suspect it won't be a high percentage.

Only about 25% of EJM's aircraft are actually available for charter. And as for all the other operators out there, they have their own clients too. What, you think they're all going to tell their own clients sorry but you won't be able to charter with us for an unspecified period of time while we cover Netjets' flights? Oh, and EJM has their own clients too. Will they just drop their regulars to cover Netjets' flying?

Heck, Netjets is having trouble covering all the selloffs now. I've already been in a couple situations this year where our plane broke and they couldn't find ANYBODY to cover the trips. Very angry clients!

And you, and others here, keep missing the bigger point. Our clients are NOT paying to be put on chartered planes for every flight. If charter was fine, they'd book those trips themselves and save on paying the Netjets premium to be in the program. Crud, if I had a quarter for every time an angry client, just this year, told me they just want what they'd paid for I could buy an extra grocery item or two.

Maybe none of our clients are sympathetic to our union. Doesn't change the fact that Netjets costs quite a bit more than our competitors and they expect to get what they paid for. How long do you think they'll accept being farmed out at a premium price before quitting the program? I'm sure JH will assure our clients things will be fine in no time. How many will start getting antsy after a couple weeks? A month? 6 weeks? 2 months?

My crystal ball says a strike won't last long. There will be HUGE pressure from angry clients. Letters, phone calls, returned shares. Maybe some lawsuits? It will become very costly very quickly for WB. These aren't lower level airline passengers. These are the powerful movers and shakers of our world. Many (most) have spent MILLIONS to be in our program (not to mention big monthly management fees). How many consecutive flights on TM's old 800's (many of which are our old planes we put out to pasture) will they accept while waiting for the strike to end?

I sincerely mean it with all my heart that I hope it doesn't come to a strike. That just won't be good for anyone. It's the nuclear option. But I gotta tell you, if we stand firm with steely resolve in our hearts, I like our odds!

 

[pilotyip]

But I gotta tell you, if we stand firm with steely resolve in our hearts, I like our odds!

Is that from PATCO 1981?

 

[realityman]

Is that from PATCO 1981?

We aren't air traffic controllers.

I could ask you how you think all the legacy carriers got the contracts they currently enjoy. Hint: It wasn't from caving in and saying, "This is too risky.".

It's ALWAYS a gamble. I never said there is a guarantee we'll come out on top. I said I like our odds.

 

[pilotyip]

We aren't air traffic controllers.

I could ask you how you think all the legacy carriers got the contracts they currently enjoy. Hint: It wasn't from caving in and saying, "This is too risky.".

It's ALWAYS a gamble. I never said there is a guarantee we'll come out on top. I said I like our odds.

I am just saying there may be ice bergs out there, you guys are the Captain of the Titanic, maybe you will hit one, maybe you won't. But someone should address the downside. As long as you are aware of the downside it is something that has to be considered.

BTW: 2000 Industry leading contract, $350/yr in 5 years, follow by BK and concessions three year later, massive furloughs, downgrades. And yes you are not ATC, but I see the same confidence here that they displayed in 1981.

 

[realityman]

Okay, I think I've had my fill of FI for another month or so. These conversations always seem to spiral down into silliness. Some folks who failed were preceded by great confidence? Really? Were any contracts that were great preceded by confidence? Yes? Then I'm not really seeing the connection you're trying to make. Were any truly great contracts achieved by a group fighting with mediocre confidence?

As for all that blather about bankruptcy and such, it has no relevance. All those bankruptcies occurred due to the economy, not the contracts. At least those folks entered bankruptcy with great contracts. As a result, even their post-bankruptcy contracts were better than what we currently make at NJA. And if you're company is failing, at least with a great contract you have a chance to save more before the BK than with a mediocre contract.

And I don't know one single solitary person at NJA that isn't aware of the potential MAJOR downside of a strike. We ALL know what the potential consequences are. But if we want any chance at all of succeeding we need to reach upward for the brass ring, not withhold effort out of fear of the downside. If we're going all in on this one, we need to push ahead with as little fear and as much confidence as we can muster.

 

[pilotyip]

Okay, I think I've had my fill of FI for another month or so.

Don't go, staying would be a sign of your confidence in everything you believe in. Your posts keep the conversations going, even if you think it is silly