Buffett Bites Back at NetJets Pilot Complaints

[imacdog]

I wouldn't say that. A lot of people are holding it together... just not ... well you know who.

In the end, it's the pilots who are given the crap sandwich and are expected to make it work. Issues like a scheduled zero minute turn to pick up owners , having to fly a plane with many writeups including passenger comfort/convenience, or being run ragged to the point of calling fatigue are not the pilot's doing.

 

[Semore Butts]

Hey Pervis, I'm with you, I was just answering the other guy.

In fact, I happen to stumble across this this morning!

http://online.barrons.com/articles/n...als-1431737039

 

[gunfyter]

In the end, it's the pilots who are given the crap sandwich and are expected to make it work. Issues like a scheduled zero minute turn to pick up owners , having to fly a plane with many writeups including passenger comfort/convenience, or being run ragged to the point of calling fatigue are not the pilot's doing.

Crap rolls downhill and we live in the valley...

I would hate to be an owner services rep though....

What I am trying to avoid is falling for the tactic that the Bridgeway Information Ministry is seemingly trying:

Dividing the different worker groups against each other.

 

[gunfyter]

26 pilots on the April seniority list are not on the May seniority list.

about 1%. If it continues 1% attrition per month, could get interesting. 300 new type-ratings a year just to tread water? Many were Gulfstream and Falcon. I wonder what those cost?

Buy FSI stock

 

[Mooneymite]

26 pilots on the April seniority list are not on the May seniority list.

Replaced with pilots on first year pay.

I wonder where the trade off between training costs and lower salary is....?

 

[fischman]

The question was really for fischman...he said NJ is the industry and bigger than its compeditors combined, suggestion the industry is just the frax. But wants to use the majors' pay comparision. Apples to oranges.

Fight for all you can get. I'm just saying that an airline payscale seems out if the realm of possibility until NJ profits near 1B....like the majors.

Like I said, it's a matter of perspective. What you don't understand is, it's not apples and oranges. The pilots at NJA fly in the same environment at the guys at Delta. When our engines stop turning, we have the same problem a Delta crew has. We use the same airports, the same runways, the same approaches, etc... Yet we are expected to earn 60% of their wages? Why? Because NJA pilots fly a Citation where a Delta pilot flies a Boeing? A plane is a plane is a plane. You pull back, they go up. You push forward, they go down. "Well a Boeing carries more people." So what? Do you think if there's 1 soul or 200 souls on board the people in the back trust in their crew less? No! NJA pilots have EARNED the trust the passengers place in us. We're good at what we do. Very good. And we are now demanding to be compensated accordingly.

When I stated that NJA is the industry I was referring to the foolish wages the NBAA says we should be making because that is the company's perspective. If they want to use that, FINE. If that's the case, the NBAA will have to formulate some new tables, because we are about to redifine them. We saw it in '05 when after the CBA was signed, the rest of the frax all got a hefty raise. Why? Because WE decide what it is. Not some arbitrary orginazation.

Now, I'd like for you to tell me why I'm worth only 60% of a pilot who works at Delta. Good luck.

 

[msculley6905]

Like I said, it's a matter of perspective. What you don't understand is, it's not apples and oranges. The pilots at NJA fly in the same environment at the guys at Delta. When our engines stop turning, we have the same problem a Delta crew has. We use the same airports, the same runways, the same approaches, etc... Yet we are expected to earn 60% of their wages? Why? Because NJA pilots fly a Citation where a Delta pilot flies a Boeing? A plane is a plane is a plane. You pull back, they go up. You push forward, they go down. "Well a Boeing carries more people." So what? Do you think if there's 1 soul or 200 souls on board the people in the back trust in their crew less? No! NJA pilots have EARNED the trust the passengers place in us. We're good at what we do. Very good. And we are now demanding to be compensated accordingly.

When I stated that NJA is the industry I was referring to the foolish wages the NBAA says we should be making because that is the company's perspective. If they want to use that, FINE. If that's the case, the NBAA will have to formulate some new tables, because we are about to redifine them. We saw it in '05 when after the CBA was signed, the rest of the frax all got a hefty raise. Why? Because WE decide what it is. Not some arbitrary orginazation.

Now, I'd like for you to tell me why I'm worth only 60% of a pilot who works at Delta. Good luck.

It's not up to me to define your worth...like i said, try to get the world, but i just dont think its feasable.

I did rather enjoy the new njasap ad. Company says no major concessions are being asked for, union says thery're in a fight for their livlihoods. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and see who is actually proposing what.

What is more? NJ+ 40% or SWA+ 1%?

I'd also like to know what pilot had ever worked 98 hours in a 7 day tour. Or is that in the ad because you're LEGALLY allowed to work 14x7. Want an airline type deal? Are you willing to be paid by flight hours which for the avg NJ pilot can be far, far less.

 

[gunfyter]

Flight hours plus duty rig.

Someone figured it out. I'd be making $345K if I had Southwest flight hours and duty rig.

 

[fischman]

It's not up to me to define your worth...like i said, try to get the world, but i just dont think its feasable.

I did rather enjoy the new njasap ad. Company says no major concessions are being asked for, union says thery're in a fight for their livlihoods. I'd love to be a fly on the wall and see who is actually proposing what.

What is more? NJ+ 40% or SWA+ 1%?

I'd also like to know what pilot had ever worked 98 hours in a 7 day tour. Or is that in the ad because you're LEGALLY allowed to work 14x7. Want an airline type deal? Are you willing to be paid by flight hours which for the avg NJ pilot can be far, far less.

With the business model, there's no way an hourly structure would work. Sorry, but before I address any of your queries, you have to address mine. I'd like to know why I'm worth less than 60% a Delta pilot.

 

[gunfyter]

With the business model, there's no way an hourly structure would work. Sorry, but before I address any of your queries, you have to address mine. I'd like to know why I'm worth less than 60% a Delta pilot.

I believe SW has a .74 duty rig. You are on duty 10 hours you get paid for 7.4 hours of flight time minimum.


Duty rig 101
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/articles/job-search-articles/trip-and-duty-rigs-101.html

Southwest has a maximum scheduled duty day of 10.5 hours, and all hours after that are paid in overtime. They have a minimum credit day of 6.5 hours, and are given full credit for deadheading. They also have a duty RIG of 0.73, meaning that for every hour that they are on duty they are credited 0.73 block hours. So, for a 10 hour day, they will be credited 7.3 hours. In addition to all these parameters, they also have limits to the amount of days they can work in a row (5), and in a month (15-16), for safety and efficiency reasons.

 

[dime line]

Like I said, it's a matter of perspective. What you don't understand is, it's not apples and oranges. The pilots at NJA fly in the same environment at the guys at Delta. When our engines stop turning, we have the same problem a Delta crew has. We use the same airports, the same runways, the same approaches, etc... Yet we are expected to earn 60% of their wages? Why? Because NJA pilots fly a Citation where a Delta pilot flies a Boeing? A plane is a plane is a plane. You pull back, they go up. You push forward, they go down. "Well a Boeing carries more people." So what? Do you think if there's 1 soul or 200 souls on board the people in the back trust in their crew less? No! NJA pilots have EARNED the trust the passengers place in us. We're good at what we do. Very good. And we are now demanding to be compensated accordingly.

When I stated that NJA is the industry I was referring to the foolish wages the NBAA says we should be making because that is the company's perspective. If they want to use that, FINE. If that's the case, the NBAA will have to formulate some new tables, because we are about to redifine them. We saw it in '05 when after the CBA was signed, the rest of the frax all got a hefty raise. Why? Because WE decide what it is. Not some arbitrary orginazation.

Now, I'd like for you to tell me why I'm worth only 60% of a pilot who works at Delta. Good luck.

The guy in the back of our plane, owns the airline

 

[realityman]

Replaced with pilots on first year pay.

I wonder where the trade off between training costs and lower salary is....?

Better go back to the union boards and our seniority list. The numbers for the past month show a net LOSS of 12 pilots. Regardless of how many they hire, "hired" does not equate to "trained and released to fly the line". And if attrition picks up even a little bit, they're really screwed. It's going to be a very, uh, "interesting" busy season if the trend continues.

 

[Mooneymite]

And if attrition picks up even a little bit, they're really screwed. It's going to be a very, uh, "interesting" busy season if the trend continues.

No problem....they'll just work the XL guys harder.

 

[T-1GUY]

Replaced with pilots on first year pay.

I wonder where the trade off between training costs and lower salary is....?

I wonder where the tipping point is? There comes a point where you can't meet flight demand because the training pipeline can't keep up with attrition. Replacing 26 pilots = 100 + interviews x 26 initial courses + new hire company orientation + IOE delays + IOE training = what about four to five months to get a qualified crew member online ?

Oh shizzle:

Five months X 26 pilots just quit again = we can no longer meet our flight obligations.

 

[jtf]

They already cannot hire and train faster than current attrition that is definitely on the rise. I believe we lost 13 pilots who were not furloughees who didn't come back last month. Last year we lost over 90 pilots. This year is accelerating faster. I won't be surprised to see 150 to 200 leave not including the furloughees who didn't come back. No way will they be able to hire and train enough this year to keep up with attrition. I'm kind of worried they will finally see the writing on the wall and offer fairly meager improvements across the board and the lemmings will jump on it when we could have extracted much more.

 

[jonjuan]

With the business model, there's no way an hourly structure would work. Sorry, but before I address any of your queries, you have to address mine. I'd like to know why I'm worth less than 60% a Delta pilot.

Why are you worth less than a JiffyLube manager who makes $150K?

 

[T-1GUY]

In the immortal words of Richard Santulli, " You could of had more... "

Don't settle for small increases. This has gone too far for that.

 

[G4dude]

So we should follow all the other lemmings??? The job I had prior to Netjets had us pay a portion of the insurance bill. Funny, every year that bill went up about 25%, and yet I couldn't even get a COLA raise from the crying poor company. I prefer the status quo on insurance. I would rather see parked airplanes than give on this issue. I would also expect a huge raise, more vacation time, and limits on duty days. Your line about auto unions and bankruptcy is nothing but a crock of sh$t. I don't put bolts on a tire all day long, day after day. I fly airplanes. It is a highly technical skill that takes decades and huge amounts of cash to get to the level of competency that Netjets and it's clients demand.

You do realize "parked airplanes" means furloughed pilots, right?

 

[G4dude]

FG...time to research what the company is telling you. The reality is we won't now or ever trigger additional taxes to the company's although they have been feeding you that for two years now, and it's the pilots fault.

Secondly, if you don't think we already subsidize the company's healthcare plane, then you should pay me the over $10,000 I've paid out of pocket the past 5 years. You do know the company is "self insured" correct? So in essence I've paid the company and for my "insurance" that $10k.

Third, my fight isn't in large part about money, mine is about the QOL that has diminished since the advent of computerized scheduling, computerized booking of hotels, and computerized triggering of intimidating pilot "firing squads"!!!!

Lastly we hear that pilots are now shadowing floor people in CMH. I'd love for you to shadow us sometime. My guess,mis you couldn't take it very long before you started crying uncle!

Pisses me off when people call BS on pilots from a cozy desk in a temperature controlled environment, eating the meal of their choosing, at a time of their choosing, while I'm up to my ass in snow, in Thunder Bay with ramp temps at -40 C, at 3am having gone to bed at 6pm, all while trying to find my sixth PB and J for the week. And in case you forgotten, I do that daily over 180 days a year....you're welcome for me generating enough profits for you to have a great job and life.

Gosh. I never realized how heroic we pilots are...

 

[G4dude]

That can cut both ways....if Hansell's mission is to get rid of all the unions at NetJets, management will be pushing to be released to "self help" where a non-negotiated contract will be presented to those pilots who wish to continue to work, the rest of us will be locked out.

If that's Hansell's plan, I suspect there is also a plan to keep NetJets going while our replacements are hired and trained.

It could get real ugly, real fast.

Not enough pilots available for that to happen, hopefully.