Brian Wilson Endorses The ASA Coalition!

[atlcrjdriver]

I do not think they will proffer us at this time, but I believe they'll send us back to the table with a git 'er dun mandate.

The gap can be narrowed without sitting at the table. All the MEC has to do is drop some of their more outlandish demands, and notify the mediator that they're ready to talk. I think the MEC is there, and waiting for the NMB decision so as to avoid negotiating against themselves.

And yes, I think we should "stay the course" (I can say that now that Bush has dropped it). It's too late in the game to fire the whole army, including the generals, train new ones, then resume the war with a bunch of FNGs!

That would be a very foolish move.

You bring up some interesting points. You say that you don't believe that a proffer will come anytime soon and that all the MEC has to do is drop some of their outlandish demands.

During the last sessions w/ the mediator both sides past proposals to see how close/far they were. Why didn't the MEC drop these some of these outlandish demands then? We were at the table w/ the mediator like they/we wanted to bring this "end game" to a close. Don't get me wrong, the company was no saint during this time either but the MEC didn't budge much at all.

 

[FightingIrish]

You bring up some interesting points. You say that you don't believe that a proffer will come anytime soon and that all the MEC has to do is drop some of their outlandish demands.

During the last sessions w/ the mediator both sides past proposals to see how close/far they were. Why didn't the MEC drop these some of these outlandish demands then? We were at the table w/ the mediator like they/we wanted to bring this "end game" to a close. Don't get me wrong, the company was no saint during this time either but the MEC didn't budge much at all.

At this point, NEITHER side should have outlandish proposals on the table. If ALPA still has outlandish demands, then they are partially to blame for this not being done 4+ years later.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

You already did get to vote. The MAJORITY voted 92.7% to strike. Sorry your team lost.

I actually voted yes during the vote only to give this team the leverage to put an end to this 4+ year disaster.

To rephrase my question, IF a proffer was issued wouldn't you want to see it and have a say the outcome or would you leave ALL in the hands of the MEC?

 

[FightingIrish]

You already did get to vote. The MAJORITY voted 92.7% to strike. Sorry your team lost.

I voted YES, but that doesn't mean I am happy about the way things are being handled. It was very important for us to come together and give the MEC the power to negotiate with a strong strike vote. We needed that for leverage to reach a fair deal. Many of us who voted YES however are starting to question why we still have some of the outlandish demands on the table. Don't assume that all 92.7% are going to vote to continue with the status quo.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I actually voted yes during the vote only to give this team the leverage to put an end to this 4+ year disaster.

To rephrase my question, IF a proffer was issued wouldn't you want to see it and have a say the outcome or would you leave ALL in the hands of the MEC?

Do you even understand what a proffer is?

I could be mistaken, but you make it sound like like a proffer is some sort of take it or leave deal.

It's not. It is a an OFFER, by the NMB to both sides to submit to final binding arbitration.

Do you understand the process???

 

[atlcrjdriver]

PM, I am not sure of how to ask this question any clearer for you so I am not even going to try. Simply reread the post and answer yes I would like to see it or no I give full faith in the MEC.

I believe we can agree that the chances of the NMB even offering a proffer is slim at best.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

PM, I am not sure of how to ask this question any clearer for you so I am not even going to try. Simply reread the post and answer yes I would like to see it or no I give full faith in the MEC.

I believe we can agree that the chances of the NMB even offering a proffer is slim at best.

I read it. I read it again. It still makes no sense. The question is would I like to see the proffer and vote on it.

The answer: NO.

I don't need to vote. I don't wan't my contract arbitrated by the NMB.

I have full faith in my MEC.

My Question, why would you want to vote on a proffer. Do you know what a proffer is. It sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I actually voted yes during the vote only to give this team the leverage to put an end to this 4+ year disaster.

To rephrase my question, IF a proffer was issued wouldn't you want to see it and have a say the outcome or would you leave ALL in the hands of the MEC?

You clearly have no understanding of how the process works.

First, to answer your question, I HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE IN MY MEC. If I did not, I would be the first person leading a drive to recall them. Trust me on this, I've done it before!

Second, YOU DO NOT "VOTE" ON A PROFFER.

A proffer is an offer of binding arbitration. No worker in his/her right mind would submit to this in our current pro-management political climate, unless you want an industry standard contract with a long duration.

So, obviously, our MEC would say no. Why would you have them say differently? Do you WANT us to go to arbitration?

 

[atlcrjdriver]

My point is this, yes I understand clearly that this is an offer from the NMB that if either side denies this proffer then the clock starts for the 30 day cooling off period w/ super mediated talks. How do you know that this proffer/offer will be as horrible/pro mgmnt? What harm would it cause for the rank and file to see it read it and tell the reps accept it/refuse it. Just as the company could very well refuse it.

As stated earlier, the chances of a proffer coming to light is moot. So to our negotiations experts PM and JP what now? Do we continue wait in the hopes that LP will change his mind about the gap in proposals and call us back or do we adjust our strategy and start communicating w/ mgmnt again.

 

[John Pennekamp]

My point is this, yes I understand clearly that this is an offer from the NMB that if either side denies this proffer then the clock starts for the 30 day cooling off period w/ super mediated talks. How do you know that this proffer/offer will be as horrible/pro mgmnt? What harm would it cause for the rank and file to see it read it and tell the reps accept it/refuse it. Just as the company could very well refuse it.

As stated earlier, the chances of a proffer coming to light is moot. So to our negotiations experts PM and JP what now? Do we continue wait in the hopes that LP will change his mind about the gap in proposals and call us back or do we adjust our strategy and start communicating w/ mgmnt again.

What do you mean "see it and read it"? There's nothing to see and read! It's an offer from the board to enter into binding arbitration. You either say yes or no! Yes from both sides means arbitration (management will likely say yes, if given the chance). The union will say no, launching the 30 day cooling off period. Why is this confusing to you?

And by the way, it's not up to LP, it's up to the Board.

Let me ask you again:
Do you believe binding arbitration is in the best interests of our pilot group?

 

[atlcrjdriver]

My Question, why would you want to vote on a proffer.

You may be correct that this proffer would horrible, pro mgmnt, and cause us to take hugh concessions. It also may not be a bad deal w/ advances for the rank and file. Until I read it I will never know....

 

[John Pennekamp]

You may be correct that this proffer would horrible, pro mgmnt, and cause us to take hugh concessions. It also may not be a bad deal w/ advances for the rank and file. Until I read it I will never know....

You don't get it. The word "proffer" is synomous with "offer". It's not a decision on the merits of our negotiations, except to declare them at an impasse.

 

[FightingIrish]

My point is this, yes I understand clearly that this is an offer from the NMB that if either side denies this proffer then the clock starts for the 30 day cooling off period w/ super mediated talks. How do you know that this proffer/offer will be as horrible/pro mgmnt? What harm would it cause for the rank and file to see it read it and tell the reps accept it/refuse it. Just as the company could very well refuse it.

As stated earlier, the chances of a proffer coming to light is moot. So to our negotiations experts PM and JP what now? Do we continue wait in the hopes that LP will change his mind about the gap in proposals and call us back or do we adjust our strategy and start communicating w/ mgmnt again.

The proffer of arbitration isn't an actual "offer" or contract. It is simply a choice given to both ALPA and management to allow an arbitrator to rule on the remaining open issues. If the profer is granted, which everyone agrees it won't, then the two sides have to accept the profer. If either side doesn't accept the profer than a 30 day cooling off period begins. There isn't anything in the profer to actually vote on, in other words it isn't a TA.

That being said, I agree with you that we should alter our game plan in order to get this done.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

What are your interests? What are my interests? What are the interests of the pilot group?

I can tell you what my primary interest is. That is stopping the transfer of airplanes to Skywest and job protection. Many pilots I talk to say the same thing.

To continue on with what I said. Once again, who isn't interested in job security and stopping the transfer of assets to Skywest! If you aren't, then what the hell do you stand for. NOTHING! In a world where the DOW is above 12000, unemployment is below 4.5%, SKYW is showing record profits, Delta is about to emerge from BK, gas is down to levels of 3 years ago, I will ask you the same question. Other than the obvious, what do you stand for? What do you want? My guess is to be able to sit around the GO working on "Scenerio's" at 100 hours guarantee every month. By being a messenger of the sky falling era, you are part of the problem, and by no means, part of the solution. We have gone without a pay raise for at least 4 years ( we both know that will turn into 5 in the wink of an eye), and they(you) want a 5 year contact that will take 5 years to amend. I my book, the simple math comes out to more than a few moons, extended out to dam near a generation without ANY raises. Explain that to your children and wife, if you have either to answer to or provide for, how you didn't feel standing up for what is rightfully due you during good times. I stand for all these.

Once again, I say this is about having conviction, a spine and the 8all's to finish the tough fight that is occuring NOW, not in 5 years.

Dick

 

[AsaLossPaywAlpa]

:smash:

EVERYONE, SHUT UP !!!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I just fail to see the point in all this any longer of even having a union if our biggest tool is taken away from us.

They're taking Joe Merchant away from us?

 

[Tarzan]

And that one's outta here!!!!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

You just can't hang a curveball like that and expect to get away with it.

 

[ASARJMan]

They're taking Joe Merchant away from us?

Good one !!!

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[Texx]

I already voted, and I voted for the fab 4. I know Lynn and Barry, and they both meet most of the requirements you mentioned above. Lynn knows the current contract (helped negotiate it), worked with the NMB, and worked with the company on issues. Barry was the hotel committee chairman and worked with the company on hotel issues. I don't know any of the FO rep candidates, on either side, so I am going with the whole team. I am ready to take some improvements and save our jobs.

Lynn had very little to do with the last contract. She and JB stepped in after the first TA was voted down. She has worked with 1 mediator. When did she work with an arbitrator?

Barry, he meets which of the requirements? Hotel committee......

 

[Richard Gozinya]

They're taking Joe Merchant away from us?

Have to talk about the conversation I heard the other day at Flight Safety. It was between B. Wilson and Beal. We all know who this is so I'll leave it at that. B. Wilson is obviously on the clock hanging around surfin porn or something on that 100 hour guarantee. Beal walks up to him and they exchange hellos. I took notes so it is factual.

BW: Whats going on online?
Beal: SOS, don't you get out there to check it out.
BW: Naw, working on these scenerios they have me looking at. Heard about the coalition BL has gotten together to try and fix this contract problem? (No mention of LJ, just BL.)
Beal: yea, We've all heard.
BW: Just happen to run into BL the other day while I was turning in my Am Ex expense report and we talked for a minute about the contract. He said that something was going to have to give soon or things were "done". He told me that they have given all they can and can't go any more. Things are going to change soon. JA has given all he can and is prepared to act.(Pretty strong inside info to just be openly discussed with a union member.)
Beal: Why should we trust these people. They have lied to us SO many times in the past. I really don't beleive any of that can be true. I don't trust them! They are sitting on around 13% profit and don't want to talk about raises? You got to be spoofin' me.
BW: Well, I had lunch with Drew the other day(this really perked my ears up. Why is he talking with already recycled management unless he wants to find out how to get on their gravy train.) Lets look at the 13%. Beal walks behind computer and they are looking at the finanacial statements of SKYW.) First you take the $10 million, Drew said to take this and cut it in half with taxes. This is our operating expenses. Interest on loan payments is another is 5-10%.
Beal: If you give me a raise, then it will be added to the operating expenses before taxes. Then get rid of all that dead weight at the GO. Then quite rewriting the LOFT scenerios for starters.
BW: So we are down to 6%, could you run your family on 6%.
Beal; 6% is better than -6%. Don't ask me what I can run my family on. I haven't had a raise in 4 years and you want me to sit around till after I retire without a pay raise. Take a pay cut while they are making money? No way. They can stick it.
BW brings up descretionary spending.
Beal, Descretionary spending my a$$. Cut out the dead weight and give us a raise. 4 years is to long.
BW; Well if you look at.....
Beal: don't want to hear it, you are in their pockets.

All over. Beal had it right, the Jackson 5 is real, alive and ready to sell us out. What is their stake in selling us out. This is indicative of them trying to take over the union and put JB in charge. Put on the jocks and cups, they are coming after our nads!

I know, long winded but had to let everyone know about this happening.

Dick

 

[VeeOne]

Regardless of how the process works I think many are missing the major and blaring point. And that is that many pilots want one final opportunity to vote on a T/A before a strike. True, a 92% strike vote was cast by our pilot group, but many view this as a negotiating tool- not a license by our MEC to execute company wide destruction for the long term in an effort to prove a point. In short- I want the final say in MY destiny. If my vote is overturned by the majority, then so be it- but I have a major issue with not being given a T/A prior to walking.

 

[ohplease!]

Regardless of how the process works I think many are missing the major and blaring point. And that is that many pilots want one final opportunity to vote on a T/A before a strike. True, a 92% strike vote was cast by our pilot group, but many view this as a negotiating tool- not a license by our MEC to execute company wide destruction for the long term in an effort to prove a point. In short- I want the final say in MY destiny. If my vote is overturned by the majority, then so be it- but I have a major issue with not being given a T/A prior to walking.

union 101: its mob rule (majority). Don't give up your right to have a "final" say unless you REALLY are willing to walk away from it. Your "yes" vote was not to prove a point.

 

[ASARJMan]

And that is that many pilots want one final opportunity to vote on a T/A before a strike. True, a 92% strike vote was cast by our pilot group, but many view this as a negotiating tool- not a license by our MEC to execute company wide destruction for the long term in an effort to prove a point. In short- I want the final say in MY destiny. If my vote is overturned by the majority, then so be it- but I have a major issue with not being given a T/A prior to walking.

Did you vote YES? If you did, it's too late. OhPlease is right.The MEC can call a strike if that time comes without you voting for a TA and having a last chance as you say. It's the way the RLA works, and you should educate yourself before making a bad decision in the future. No one wants a strike, although there may be a small percentage that do. One hopes that a TA can be reached that is acceptable to the pilot group. I know I do. But, I'm prepared to walk too.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[VeeOne]

Did you vote YES? If you did, it's too late. OhPlease is right.The MEC can call a strike if that time comes without you voting for a TA and having a last chance as you say. It's the way the RLA works, and you should educate yourself before making a bad decision in the future. No one wants a strike, although there may be a small percentage that do. One hopes that a TA can be reached that is acceptable to the pilot group. I know I do. But, I'm prepared to walk too.

VOTED IN FAVOR!

I didn't make a bad decision- I voted "NO"- and now you realize EXACTLY why. I've been to this BBQ before- unfortunately. I am a pro ALPA guy, but not having a final say and hearing the MEC bluntly boast that no T/A would be sent to the pilot group without his say so was a sticking point with me.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Here's the part that stood out to me:

Heard about the coalition BL has gotten together to try and fix this contract problem? (No mention of LJ, just BL.)

So BW's admitting that Liar LeBrecque ORGANIZED THE COALITION? That ought to tell the ASA pilots everything they need to know. The "coalition" is 100% organized, supported, and financed by management as an attempt to eliminate our union representation.

A vote for the coalition is a vote to abolish ALPA at ASA, and cave on the contract.

Vote your conscience and vote wisely.

 

[gcaflyer]

Just curious when the last time anyone (those that are so critical of this MEC) on this thread attended a LEC/MEC meeting. Perhaps if you spent less time whining here and volunteering instead then your criticism would have some basis. As it stands you do nothing but create division in this pilot group at a time when we need most to be united to finsh this contract.

 

[701EV]

Just curious when the last time anyone (those that are so critical of this MEC) on this thread attended a LEC/MEC meeting. Perhaps if you spent less time whining here and volunteering instead then your criticism would have some basis. As it stands you do nothing but create division in this pilot group at a time when we need most to be united to finsh this contract.

:0

gcaflyer you are so right!

Monday October 30, 2006
ASA Council 112 Meeting
1000AM

With whats going on at ASA right now this meeting should be STANDING ROOM ONLY!

MY bet is that their will be the same 20 people that always show up for the LEC meetings.

Boy and girls its time to get off your ass and get involved!

Who knows maybe the Jackson 5 will show up ansd sing us a tune

701EV

 

[701EV]

deleted

 

[Speedtape]

ll

The fab 4 is offering a plan. Agree with or not, at least they have a plan. The opposition (ASARJMAN, Pennekamp, Pogue Mahone, etc.) offer Jerry Springer style personal attacks and status quo. You decide.

Their plan is "we'll roll over and have you a contract in 90 days." They also are promising a jean day on Monday's and Friday's.

Those other 3 people that LJ has roped into her little scheme have no idea of what they have gotten themselves into. A fellow pilot that is in R/T with one of the F/O's that is running on her ticket, was asked today some real basic questions about their platform and how they were going to achieve their 90 day goal, and the poor guy doesn't have a clue! HMMMM!

I think we need to think this one out real carefully.

L.J. , quit hiding out in the smoking room and behind Chuck Vier's office door! Come into the crew lounge and face the pilots you want to vote for you. You need to answer some questions about your ALPA experience. You need to answer some questions with more detail about how your plan can work. You need to answer some questions about why you think you deserve our trust. Why are you hiding behind three other innocent pilots?

Why did you get recalled? Why did you go into mangagement? Why did you leave management--sounds like you may not have? Why did you quit the MEC Vice-Chair job? Why should you deserve the trust of this pilot group?

Those are things that need to be answered--or maybe not!

Most of us that have been here for any length of time have been paying attention and don't have short memories!


I vote NO to the CO----alition! Of really ONE!