Brian Wilson Endorses The ASA Coalition!

[FmrFreightDog]

If you answered no to any of these questions then, no matter how great DN and the MEC are as people, it may be tx for a change.

You know, I'm just too tired to get involved in this debate. The majority will speak, and I still have faith in the majority. If the majority proves me wrong and installs Johnny's coalition, I will have lost a lot of faith in this pilot group. I would wager that those of you pushing for blind change (even Brian Wilson's letter basically said, "What are they going to do? I dunno, but we should give them the chance to show us.") have never spent a day volunteering for an ALPA committee or educating themselves on the true labor-management dynamic that exists at this company. Pushing for a change without really knowing what that change hopes to bring is a truly desperate measure and it shows panic. Furthermore, in my opinion, it shows your lack of backbone.

Anyway... like I said, I'm too tired to get involved in this debate. Do what you want. I've done my campaigning. ALPA is already on the ropes on a national level. Voting in Lynn and company will mark the end of any real representation you have at this company. Think SAPA. If you're comfortable with your reps answering to management's whim, then these people are your guys. If not, research the candidates and make a choice for strong representation. If anyone cares, PM me and I'll be happy to tell you who I nominated and why.

But back to the original reason I posted a response.... ATLCRJDRIVER..... is it really that hard to type the word "time"? The "tx" is just annoying.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Here is something for the "majority" to think about, IF this proffer is handed down from the NMB. Do you believe the CNC will allow the rank and file to review it and vote on if WE want to approve or reject it or will they say based on the mandates we will make the decision for you?

You say we should should all be quiet and stay the course, which course do you believe they will take?

 

[sweptback]

Here is something for the "majority" to think about, IF this proffer is handed down from the NMB. Do you believe the CNC will allow the rank and file to review it and vote on if WE want to approve or reject it or will they say based on the mandates we will make the decision for you?

You say we should should all be quiet and stay the course, which course do you believe they will take?

Sorry, that's not how it's done. You don't get to vote on whether or not you accept a proffer. Ask a member of Congress if you get to vote on every bill that comes before them...

I think some of you guys are thinking that a proffer equals a strike. That could not be farther from the truth. What a proffer gives us is leverage in the form of time pressure. Maybe I'm optimistic, but I think if we were pushed into a 30-day cooling off period we would have an acceptable TA at the 29-day mark. SkyWest may be happy to let us strike, but Delta would put their foot down and say settle this thing.

 

[John Pennekamp]

JP, do you believe that the NMB will hand down a proffer of arbitration? Do you have confidence in the this "Stay the Course" mentality that our present MEC has put in place? Do you believe that we can get the gap between proposals closer together if we don't actually sit at the table and communicate? If you answered no to any of these questions then, no matter how great DN and the MEC are as people, it may be tx for a change.

I do not think they will proffer us at this time, but I believe they'll send us back to the table with a git 'er dun mandate.

The gap can be narrowed without sitting at the table. All the MEC has to do is drop some of their more outlandish demands, and notify the mediator that they're ready to talk. I think the MEC is there, and waiting for the NMB decision so as to avoid negotiating against themselves.

And yes, I think we should "stay the course" (I can say that now that Bush has dropped it). It's too late in the game to fire the whole army, including the generals, train new ones, then resume the war with a bunch of FNGs!

That would be a very foolish move.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Here is something for the "majority" to think about, IF this proffer is handed down from the NMB. Do you believe the CNC will allow the rank and file to review it and vote on if WE want to approve or reject it or will they say based on the mandates we will make the decision for you?

You say we should should all be quiet and stay the course, which course do you believe they will take?

You already did get to vote. The MAJORITY voted 92.7% to strike. Sorry your team lost.

 

[FightingIrish]

I do not think they will proffer us at this time, but I believe they'll send us back to the table with a git 'er dun mandate.

The gap can be narrowed without sitting at the table. All the MEC has to do is drop some of their more outlandish demands, and notify the mediator that they're ready to talk. I think the MEC is there, and waiting for the NMB decision so as to avoid negotiating against themselves.

And yes, I think we should "stay the course" (I can say that now that Bush has dropped it). It's too late in the game to fire the whole army, including the generals, train new ones, then resume the war with a bunch of FNGs!

That would be a very foolish move.

So are you saying that the MEC knows it needs to come off some of the "outlandish" demands, but is waiting for the NMB to force them to do it? Why can't they just do it. Sounds like they are playing games. One way or the other, they are going to have to come of those demands. Why wait for the NMB to force them. Show some leadership and do what it takes to get the job done.

 

[FightingIrish]

You and your fellow hand puppets want change then vote for it. And if your change candidates don't win then how about getting on board with the majority and stop all your whining.

And if they do win, will you get on board with them?

 

[Tarzan]

Whats the point anymore. Even if it does come down to a strike, the Imperial Federal Government will not allow it to happen just as Mesaba will not be able to strike.

And before any W bashers start, Clintonoid disallowed an American strike just minutes after it started. So that dog, vote for a politician because he pays lip service to labor, won't hunt.

I just fail to see the point in all this any longer of even having a union if our biggest tool is taken away from us.

 

[John Pennekamp]

So are you saying that the MEC knows it needs to come off some of the "outlandish" demands, but is waiting for the NMB to force them to do it? Why can't they just do it. Sounds like they are playing games. One way or the other, they are going to have to come of those demands. Why wait for the NMB to force them. Show some leadership and do what it takes to get the job done.

If you will continue to spin my words, we'll have nothing else to debate.

As I said above, it wouldn't be smart strategy to negotiate against themselves. They should wait for the company's counterproposal first, since it IS THE COMPANY'S TURN.

And nothing is going to come from EITHER SIDE until the NMB rules on the proffer. That's pretty standard at every company. Once you request a proffer, you stand by for the result, because if you want a proffer, negotiating voluntarily will most likely cause the board to say there's no need for one. A proffer is made when there's an impasse. If you're voluntarily negotiating, there's no impasse. The union needs a proffer to set a completion date for negotiations. Until that happens, this company will not get serious. They will just continue stringing us and the mediator along by throwing out scraps.

Clearly you know nothing about NMB negotiations. I would suggest you stop embarassing yourself until you get some education on negotiating strategy. Contrary to popular belief, it's a lot more in-depth than buying a car!

 

[John Pennekamp]

Whats the point anymore. Even if it does come down to a strike, the Imperial Federal Government will not allow it to happen just as Mesaba will not be able to strike.

And before any W bashers start, Clintonoid disallowed an American strike just minutes after it started. So that dog, vote for a politician because he pays lip service to labor, won't hunt.

I just fail to see the point in all this any longer of even having a union if our biggest tool is taken away from us.

Just for your information, Clinton stopped the APA strike (American Pilots) because the AFL-CIO asked him to. The other labor groups at AA had asked the APA not to do it, and to get on board so as not to bankrupt the company, but the APA flipped them off and called a strike. The other groups had all taken their pay cuts, and felt it was unfair to let the APA take the company down. Apparently Clinton agreed, and did what the majority of the union workers wanted, not the minority.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

I do not think they will proffer us at this time, but I believe they'll send us back to the table with a git 'er dun mandate.

The gap can be narrowed without sitting at the table. All the MEC has to do is drop some of their more outlandish demands, and notify the mediator that they're ready to talk. I think the MEC is there, and waiting for the NMB decision so as to avoid negotiating against themselves.

And yes, I think we should "stay the course" (I can say that now that Bush has dropped it). It's too late in the game to fire the whole army, including the generals, train new ones, then resume the war with a bunch of FNGs!

That would be a very foolish move.

You bring up some interesting points. You say that you don't believe that a proffer will come anytime soon and that all the MEC has to do is drop some of their outlandish demands.

During the last sessions w/ the mediator both sides past proposals to see how close/far they were. Why didn't the MEC drop these some of these outlandish demands then? We were at the table w/ the mediator like they/we wanted to bring this "end game" to a close. Don't get me wrong, the company was no saint during this time either but the MEC didn't budge much at all.

 

[FightingIrish]

You bring up some interesting points. You say that you don't believe that a proffer will come anytime soon and that all the MEC has to do is drop some of their outlandish demands.

During the last sessions w/ the mediator both sides past proposals to see how close/far they were. Why didn't the MEC drop these some of these outlandish demands then? We were at the table w/ the mediator like they/we wanted to bring this "end game" to a close. Don't get me wrong, the company was no saint during this time either but the MEC didn't budge much at all.

At this point, NEITHER side should have outlandish proposals on the table. If ALPA still has outlandish demands, then they are partially to blame for this not being done 4+ years later.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

You already did get to vote. The MAJORITY voted 92.7% to strike. Sorry your team lost.

I actually voted yes during the vote only to give this team the leverage to put an end to this 4+ year disaster.

To rephrase my question, IF a proffer was issued wouldn't you want to see it and have a say the outcome or would you leave ALL in the hands of the MEC?

 

[FightingIrish]

You already did get to vote. The MAJORITY voted 92.7% to strike. Sorry your team lost.

I voted YES, but that doesn't mean I am happy about the way things are being handled. It was very important for us to come together and give the MEC the power to negotiate with a strong strike vote. We needed that for leverage to reach a fair deal. Many of us who voted YES however are starting to question why we still have some of the outlandish demands on the table. Don't assume that all 92.7% are going to vote to continue with the status quo.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I actually voted yes during the vote only to give this team the leverage to put an end to this 4+ year disaster.

To rephrase my question, IF a proffer was issued wouldn't you want to see it and have a say the outcome or would you leave ALL in the hands of the MEC?

Do you even understand what a proffer is?

I could be mistaken, but you make it sound like like a proffer is some sort of take it or leave deal.

It's not. It is a an OFFER, by the NMB to both sides to submit to final binding arbitration.

Do you understand the process???

 

[atlcrjdriver]

PM, I am not sure of how to ask this question any clearer for you so I am not even going to try. Simply reread the post and answer yes I would like to see it or no I give full faith in the MEC.

I believe we can agree that the chances of the NMB even offering a proffer is slim at best.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

PM, I am not sure of how to ask this question any clearer for you so I am not even going to try. Simply reread the post and answer yes I would like to see it or no I give full faith in the MEC.

I believe we can agree that the chances of the NMB even offering a proffer is slim at best.

I read it. I read it again. It still makes no sense. The question is would I like to see the proffer and vote on it.

The answer: NO.

I don't need to vote. I don't wan't my contract arbitrated by the NMB.

I have full faith in my MEC.

My Question, why would you want to vote on a proffer. Do you know what a proffer is. It sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I actually voted yes during the vote only to give this team the leverage to put an end to this 4+ year disaster.

To rephrase my question, IF a proffer was issued wouldn't you want to see it and have a say the outcome or would you leave ALL in the hands of the MEC?

You clearly have no understanding of how the process works.

First, to answer your question, I HAVE FULL CONFIDENCE IN MY MEC. If I did not, I would be the first person leading a drive to recall them. Trust me on this, I've done it before!

Second, YOU DO NOT "VOTE" ON A PROFFER.

A proffer is an offer of binding arbitration. No worker in his/her right mind would submit to this in our current pro-management political climate, unless you want an industry standard contract with a long duration.

So, obviously, our MEC would say no. Why would you have them say differently? Do you WANT us to go to arbitration?

 

[atlcrjdriver]

My point is this, yes I understand clearly that this is an offer from the NMB that if either side denies this proffer then the clock starts for the 30 day cooling off period w/ super mediated talks. How do you know that this proffer/offer will be as horrible/pro mgmnt? What harm would it cause for the rank and file to see it read it and tell the reps accept it/refuse it. Just as the company could very well refuse it.

As stated earlier, the chances of a proffer coming to light is moot. So to our negotiations experts PM and JP what now? Do we continue wait in the hopes that LP will change his mind about the gap in proposals and call us back or do we adjust our strategy and start communicating w/ mgmnt again.

 

[John Pennekamp]

My point is this, yes I understand clearly that this is an offer from the NMB that if either side denies this proffer then the clock starts for the 30 day cooling off period w/ super mediated talks. How do you know that this proffer/offer will be as horrible/pro mgmnt? What harm would it cause for the rank and file to see it read it and tell the reps accept it/refuse it. Just as the company could very well refuse it.

As stated earlier, the chances of a proffer coming to light is moot. So to our negotiations experts PM and JP what now? Do we continue wait in the hopes that LP will change his mind about the gap in proposals and call us back or do we adjust our strategy and start communicating w/ mgmnt again.

What do you mean "see it and read it"? There's nothing to see and read! It's an offer from the board to enter into binding arbitration. You either say yes or no! Yes from both sides means arbitration (management will likely say yes, if given the chance). The union will say no, launching the 30 day cooling off period. Why is this confusing to you?

And by the way, it's not up to LP, it's up to the Board.

Let me ask you again:
Do you believe binding arbitration is in the best interests of our pilot group?