Awa/usairs Arbitration In !

[gcsass]

and torturing the cat after watching him spell out the letters A W in the catbox with his dried turds.

quote]

Now that is truly classic!! Did anyone really think the east furloughees would get something besides a staple job? Good luck to all of you in integrating this mess..........

 

[737 Pylt]

So much for unity.

With Sincere Apologies to BenderGonzales and LearLove here I go on a rant.

This reaction is predictable. If there's one thing you can count on its the hubris of AAA pilots. Do you fly the same way? "What T-storm? I expect there to be good weather ahead..."

To recap:
Top 500 go to East
Wide Body Fences
No Bump and Flush
List Integrated by ALPA Merger Policy
Furloughed pilots slotted like pretty much every other merger in history.

And still you think you got hosed.... Lets not forget the pass policy is DOH. Or that you come back at your time in service pay. But no, you must have got hosed because now you're gonna fly your same equipment at the same relative seniority, OMFG! How did this happen to you!?

You guys were tools from the absolute beginning of this thing. We started at a reasonable point and you directed your MEC to go for broke. Guess what, you guys are BOTH OLD AND F@@CKING SENILE to expect any other outcome than this.

Now your senility is showing because you'd rather work under a BK agreement than work to get a new contract with better work rules (more time for that afternoon nap grandpa), better pay and a healthier company.

Sorry, but your 16 years would have looked real good at your next interview. You could have told 'em what a great place USAirways was before it F**cking liquidated....

Gear up Gramps! Or do you need your service monkey to reach over and get that for you so you don't throw out your trick back?

I've lost pretty much all respect for those who have gone before me, whinin' freaken' babies.

Grog:
That has to be one of the funniest rants I've ever read!
LMFAO!!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

737

 

[Turtle21]

"Boy you are a quick one. Short sighted and reactionary, but A+ for speed."

Please explain to me how I am being short sighted...This should be good....

Can you get it through your thick head...

Call me speed reading challenged. I 'm not a quick as you (and you are amenable to requests). I just don't have time to read all that. Sorta like you, I had to just stop reading after the first sentence. I’ll have to leave the response to folks quick enough to read it all.

Please remember your long stories for when I buy you a beer.:beer:

 

[Fast43]

Those who think this is lopsided need to read the Award and not just look at numbers and dates of hire. What the AAA guys asked for, actually demanded, was unreasonable and not at all in line with ALPA merger policy. Which by the way does not even mention DOH. So harping on DOH is a waste of time. Career Expectations is what needed to be compared and that is what the Arbitrator did. If you take the time to read the reasoning of the Award it will be more than clear to you that AAA had little or no Career Expectations and the Award reflected just that.

Do any of you guys on the sidelines taking pot shots care to speculate on the effect of AAA trying to put 104 guys who had never been hired by AAA or flown a Mainline jet, on a AAA-AWA combined list ahead of Active (Actually hired by one of the two Carriers) AWA pilots ??

Could it be that the energy spent trying to justify the unjustifiable would have been better spent elswhere???

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Exactly.

 

[LearLove]

So much for unity.

With Sincere Apologies to BenderGonzales and LearLove here I go on a rant.

No need to apologize to me, I've been put exactly where I expected to be put. I was never expecting or asking for anything more in my (CEL/ALG to MDA to the U list) position.

Now as for the real live U guys such as bender and the rest - especially the ones hired in the late 80's/early 90's - to you guys I'm very sorry for what has happened. It is absolutly criminal to see a guy the same age as me who was hired at Allegheny around the same time I was (99) and went to AWA in early 2004 now 100 numbers senior to a U guy hired in 88.

It doesn't matter anyway - the economy will be collapsing soon, and the airlines are the first to go and the last to recover. We will all be stuck j4j or furloughed for a very long time.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

True Lear, but I respect you and Bender. Sorry for the rant, my perspective is obviously skewed towards AWA.

Tailwinds

 

[Caveman]

I don't have a dog in this fight but from an outsiders observation it looks to me like the arbitrator got it just about right. The top 500 East guys are living large and everybody else that wasn't furloughed got roughly a relative seniority integration. The unfortunate 1700 furloughed guys and gals are still furloughed. It sucked to be them before the merger and it still sucks exactly the same post-merger. Don't blame the AWA new hire. Blame AAA management. They're the ones responsible for you being in this mess. Nicolau made the right call.

Actually, I do have a dog in this fight. All of the AAA furloughees at JetBlue are now going to stay at JetBlue. So much for my quick ascension up the seniority list. Goddamnit Nicolau! You screwed me!

 

[MCDU]

USAIR pilots: Time to shut the place down. You can only take so much, so I say to 3100 plus pilot:Its better to die standing up then live on your knees. Their are plenty of jobs around. Virgin, Skybus and lots of carriers overseas are better then what you got
Just do it.

Marty

 

[m80drvr]

I don't have a dog in this fight but from an outsiders observation it looks to me like the arbitrator got it just about right. The top 500 East guys are living large and everybody else that wasn't furloughed got roughly a relative seniority integration. The unfortunate 1700 furloughed guys and gals are still furloughed. It sucked to be them before the merger and it still sucks exactly the same post-merger. Don't blame the AWA new hire. Blame AAA management. They're the ones responsible for you being in this mess. Nicolau made the right call.

Actually, I do have a dog in this fight. All of the AAA furloughees at JetBlue are now going to stay at JetBlue. So much for my quick ascension up the seniority list. Goddamnit Nicolau! You screwed me!

You are exactly right. I wish more people saw it this way. It is a very emotional topic BUT what did east expect? Furloughed pilots brought nothing to the table. As for the last East guy on the list with over 18 yrs on property, did he actually expect to have his RELATIVE position change? Did he expect to come through this with 4 bars on his shoulder? Talk about a windfall! Like it or not it went relative seniority more or less.

I think much of the blame lies with the east merger committee. Not in so much as they didn't try their hardest but in the fact that DOH was a pipe dream from the beginning. The expectations of the East pilots were not managed well and they were led to believe that they could get DOH and capture some of their lost seniority at the expense of a another pilot group who were working for a growing carrier. That was just not going to happen. Someone on the east side should have been preparing the pilot group.

Now I read on the east messsage board of how guys are going to try to shut the company down so the west guys can suffer like they have. And that they should not vote on a new contract no matter what so the company has to operate the two airlines separately. And my favorite, decertify ALPA and reject the Arbitration Award. How short sighted is that? There are not too many jobs that pay 100k to an unemployed pilot that has been an FO all his career. It's time to get over it and move on. We are all lucky to be working.

 

[Lampshade]

This issue cannot be solved unless General Lee chimes in.

 

[m80drvr]

USAIR pilots: Time to shut the place down. You can only take so much, so I say to 3100 plus pilot:Its better to die standing up then live on your knees. Their are plenty of jobs around. Virgin, Skybus and lots of carriers overseas are better then what you got
Just do it.

Marty

Great one Marty, Go ahead shut the place down. I'm sure you will easily be able to find employment with 5000 plus pilots newly out of a job. Not to mention the other 30,000 employees that work for U. I think the to 40% of the U list will not follow your lead though. But "good luck storming the castle"

 

[m80drvr]

This issue cannot be solved unless General Lee chimes in.

Somehow he will tie in the name Oberstar, I can just feel it!

 

[Groucho]

For over 50 years DOH was the standard ALPA position. With provisions and protections for different types of flying, ie wide body international etc.

It was good enough for PI/US and for PSA/US and for Allegheny Mowhak etc etc etc. It was the standard until the junior United pilots got it changed because they were afraid of a merge with US.

IF you take this to it's ridiculous conclusion when this company merges with Virgin, or Skybus or Spirit then all those pilots, some with less than one year seniority, hired as captains off the street, will be senior to most West pilots. Your service time will count for nothing.

You will see more mergers, and you may not like what you get, praticularly as you grow older and spend more time in this industry. Your prior service time has no meaning. If the company merges with some upstart you will get hosed.

A great way to build ALPA unity.

 

[TWA Dude]

By the logic of this award, the slotting starts at the 500 and goes down from there.

The fault in your logic is that every integration is different.

 

[Lampshade]

AAA pilots were looking for payback for past injustices and they wanted to extract restitutuon from AWA pilots, they demanded there merger committee go for DOH. Justice prevailed and sometimes karma's just a bitch.

 

[TWA Dude]

For over 50 years DOH was the standard ALPA position.

And for over 50 years there were very few upstarts. Deregulation altered the industry completely. I don't know the exact reason why DOH was removed from ALPA Merger Policy (in the early '90s, I think) but it probably had to do with the fact that DOH may or may not be fair depending on the particular circumstances. DOH would've meant 2/3 of AWA pilots stapled to USA. You're free to believe that's fair but the arbitrator obviously didn't.

 

[5150]

They don't need to "Shut it down". USAirways will fail on it's own in short order. Better get your logbooks and resumes up to date !

 

[JetMonkey]

For over 50 years DOH was the standard ALPA position. With provisions and protections for different types of flying, ie wide body international etc.

It was good enough for PI/US and for PSA/US and for Allegheny Mowhak etc etc etc. It was the standard until the junior United pilots got it changed because they were afraid of a merge with US.

IF you take this to it's ridiculous conclusion when this company merges with Virgin, or Skybus or Spirit then all those pilots, some with less than one year seniority, hired as captains off the street, will be senior to most West pilots. Your service time will count for nothing.

You will see more mergers, and you may not like what you get, praticularly as you grow older and spend more time in this industry. Your prior service time has no meaning. If the company merges with some upstart you will get hosed.

A great way to build ALPA unity.

It'll all depend on our expectations and what we'll bring to the table at that time. Just like it did here.

 

[regionaltard]

odell got put ahead of colello - thats f'in bullsh1t. east got the shaft big time.

tell me how the fvck does someone that got hired in 2005 get put ahead of someone with an 1986 DOH?

Uh, because he had a job maybe? Pilots at an airline that was days from liquidation prior to the merger talking about other pilots receiving a windfall at their expense need to put down the crack pipe and take a reality bath. The prospects for AW's survival without the merger can be debated; USAir's cannot. The award seems consistent with both policy and precedent.

 

[Fast43]

You are exactly right. I wish more people saw it this way. It is a very emotional topic BUT what did east expect? Furloughed pilots brought nothing to the table. As for the last East guy on the list with over 18 yrs on property, did he actually expect to have his RELATIVE position change? Did he expect to come through this with 4 bars on his shoulder? Talk about a windfall! Like it or not it went relative seniority more or less.

I think much of the blame lies with the east merger committee. Not in so much as they didn't try their hardest but in the fact that DOH was a pipe dream from the beginning. The expectations of the East pilots were not managed well and they were led to believe that they could get DOH and capture some of their lost seniority at the expense of a another pilot group who were working for a growing carrier. That was just not going to happen. Someone on the east side should have been preparing the pilot group.

Now I read on the east messsage board of how guys are going to try to shut the company down so the west guys can suffer like they have. And that they should not vote on a new contract no matter what so the company has to operate the two airlines separately. And my favorite, decertify ALPA and reject the Arbitration Award. How short sighted is that? There are not too many jobs that pay 100k to an unemployed pilot that has been an FO all his career. It's time to get over it and move on. We are all lucky to be working.

Well Said !!

Since they would have you believe that they are the Superior more experienced and knowledgeable of pilot groups, lets see if their Leadership can step up and lead the way through this with the voice of reason. They shot for the moon and missed etc. If not and they take the STFD attitude then we will have proof that the west guys were right when they didn't jump for joy at the merger announcement.


Your Shot !!!

 

[Bringupthebird]

I avoid flying USAIR commuting. They are so unreliable. I wonder why pax still fly them. I give 5 years max.

Why do you need to fly USAir to commute to the 7th grade? Get back to snickering over the word booger on Myspace.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Call me stupid, but I used to fly with the 3100 USAir grampa pilots and I don't see them voting a 15-30% seniority improvement to 1800 HP savior of the world wonder kid pilots, at their own expense.

It is simple math. Grampa pilots are always willing to vote for junior pilots to loose seniority and money in exchange for a payoff to them. And grampa pilots were all too willing to vote 2000 pilots off the bottom of the USAir active list in exchange for a payoff.

In this situation Dave has to convince 3100 pilots (who collectively view themselves as senior) to acquiesce to a seniority loss to 1800 other pilots (that they perceive to be junior). The arbitrator’s ruling doesn’t change the fact that there are 3100 pilots who get to vote on when or if the list is effectively integrated.

To get the grampa pilots to adopt what they perceive as a seniority loss to themselves, it will cost a pay raise that I can't imagine Dave is interested in paying.

But who knows, maybe the grampa pilots have changed in their old age or maybe Dave is really a sugar daddy at heart.

I don't know, but I sure as heell wouldn't buy a ticket to be a customer while this is going on.

Dave? Doug? Whoever.

And why should anyone think that the US East pilots will ever work together for their common good? It's never happened in the past.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

So, with the widebodies fenced, will the senior USAirways East pilots be able to bump the AWA 757 pilots off their Hawaiian routes? When will East pilots be able to bid West domiciles like PHX and LAS and vice versa? Watch the older East pilots bid sunny Phoenix (pre-retirement) at the first chance.

I love to hear the East pilots crying about their arbitration result. Perhaps they should consider that they were weeks away from LIQUIDATION and the unemployment line? Does that ring a bell? They should consider themselves lucky in my opinion - especially the top 500...

The answer is no they can't. There must be a west vacancy in order to bid out here and our vp/fltops has just stated that there will be no west vacancies for the remainder of 07 at least.

No reason to pound chests over this thing and rub their noses in it. We must take the high road here and be professional.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Call me stupid, but I used to fly with the 3100 USAir grampa pilots and I don't see them voting a 15-30% seniority improvement to 1800 HP savior of the world wonder kid pilots, at their own expense.

It is simple math. Grampa pilots are always willing to vote for junior pilots to loose seniority and money in exchange for a payoff to them. And grampa pilots were all too willing to vote 2000 pilots off the bottom of the USAir active list in exchange for a payoff.

In this situation Dave has to convince 3100 pilots (who collectively view themselves as senior) to acquiesce to a seniority loss to 1800 other pilots (that they perceive to be junior). The arbitrator’s ruling doesn’t change the fact that there are 3100 pilots who get to vote on when or if the list is effectively integrated.

To get the grampa pilots to adopt what they perceive as a seniority loss to themselves, it will cost a pay raise that I can't imagine Dave is interested in paying.

But who knows, maybe the grampa pilots have changed in their old age or maybe Dave is really a sugar daddy at heart.

I don't know, but I sure as heell wouldn't buy a ticket to be a customer while this is going on.

Then they will simply get left behind while we ratify a contract on this side. They will not hold us hostage while they play out there games. The third part has spoken it's over so lets move on...

BTW who's Dave????

WD.

 

[johnsonrod]

Merger integration is always a b!tch... I'm sure the airport/hotel vans are going to be lively where the routes and layovers overlap... At least you all have decent jobs.... Imagine what would have happened had Delta been added to the picture - talk about an integration MESS............ It could have been worse.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

They don't need to "Shut it down". USAirways will fail on it's own in short order. Better get your logbooks and resumes up to date !

Based on what there partner???

I love how you dime store analyst come out of the wood work with this horse$hit. We were the most profitable carrier last yr and we are doing well this year so far inspite of the bad wx, high fuel and system glitches. So tell us airline business guru why are we going TU in short order???

WD

 

[nosoupforyou!]

Wow,

It is a sad day. What a suck place to work now. Sounds like the old Pan Am - National merger. "Integration by expectation". Well maybe not quite the same but man, it's still a chit sandwich.

Now I know why I don't need ALPA to help me here at JetBlue.

Good luck with it.

I should get out of this biz before it's too late.

 

[Turtle21]

Dave? Doug? Whoever.

And why should anyone think that the US East pilots will ever work together for their common good? It's never happened in the past.

You are correct. They have not. You won't get 3100 voting US pilots on one list to vote the same way, but they have never failed to have 60-80% on the top work together to hose the bottom.

And there are jsut a few grampas that think there are 1800 new pilots on the list that aren't in the circle of friends. The grampa pilots perceive that a joint contract will cost them a windfall. Maybe it isn't true, but try to tell them.

And if Jack Daniels thinks he can count on the top 500 pilots at US, then he better get busy, cause at the rate of negotiations the top 700 are gonna be retired before he gets a joint TA out for vote.

 

[Marko Ramius]

All these people that talk about the '3100' grandpa's voting this down to spite Parker and the AWA pilots are silly. If Parker wants these two carriers to be operated separately(always a possibility but unlikely with the Feds), than he'll let you play your games. If not, he'll throw out the one thing he knows will make U's pilots fold like Dirk Nowitzki-money. The AWA pilots never had a pension, U did and lost it without much time to make it up with or without 65. Considering what they lost and how much time they have to make it up, anything that will bump up their retirements will trump the rest of this garbage. No need for Parker to negotiate seriously prior to a list merger award, now he knows exactly what he's working with and what he needs to do to get a deal done. The U pilots have been punked for too long, they will fall for money and then go out and spend the rest of the time bitching about the award and litigating.