Awa Merger

[Guppiedriver]

On a side note:

We were on the van in Denver the other day and a USAirways furloughed pilot was on our crew van returning to the airport after a corporate job interview. She was a early 1990's hire. She told my Captain that she fully expected to return to work once the merger went through and at least hold a FO position. She said all her "friends" in her furloughed seniority range expected the same. I asked her if I should give up my job for her return, and she stated that is how the seniority system works.

This seniority integration is going to be a mess. Terms like reasonable, career expectations, fair, etc...will never be agreed on. We will be arguing these things as the whole airline sinks to the bottom and we are all out of jobs.

She and her friends are going to be disappointed.

She can return to work as soon as there are new vacancies as a new hire with accrued longevity minus the furloughed years.

Did you confront that obnoxious b!tch?

 

[Cactus73]

Yeah, USAir made an ATSB payment, $250 million, I believe, a few quarters ago when it was trying to hide some money, too.

I don't think AWA was hiding money when they made this scheduled bi-yearly payment. I also don't think USAirways was trying to hide money. Believe it or not, not every money move is an accounting scandal. We owe money to Citibank at a high interest rate and we have to make 2 payments a year or we are in default. I'm not sure what the terms of the Airways ATSB loan require.

So, Cactus73, if USAir starts showing a profit, will it change what a fair integration looks like? Is that the determining factor?

I never made a statement of what I thought was fair. All I said is that we weren't going bankrupt. Airway's is bankrupt. I'm just stating the obvious.
And yes, career expectations are part of ALPA merger policy - so there - I said it - profits, growth, and financials do matter.

Who cares what the accountants do, the fact is that pilots generate revenue, and if this merger goes through we are going to have to share that work.

Pilots are an expense and are listed as such in the books. We don't generate anything. If the company could provide the transportation without our services they most definitely would.

You, "Doug," and PHXFLYR have a really twisted sense of the U pilot group. One van ride doesn't tell the whole story, nor does a revisionist historical perspective on the Parity+1% contract. Management WANTED that contract; it's what they said they needed. Now people look at it like it was a win for labor. Pure BS and revisionist history. That contract was consessionary, because at the time USAir was generating awesome revenue.

One of you asked what I thought was "reasonable" as far as integration. Well, I dunno, why don't you tell me? I was hired at US Airways in 1999, and I eventually had just over 600 pilots junior to me (10% of the list.) I was furloughed and out of the picture for two years, and now I fly CRJ's for a wholly owned and my paychecks say US Airways Group on them, just like they did in 1999. I get the sense that my six year history with US Air Group doesn't mean much to you boys in PHX, but because this is the Internet and because it's Tuesday and because I'm really tired I'll go ahead and let you take a shot at it. Where does a guy like me go on a combined list? Junior to a AWA pilot hired in March 2005? Junior to a poolie? Let me know what you think, and remeber: what goes around comes around.

Don't tell me I have a twisted view. I'm willing to accept the list the merger committee's or the arbitrator decide. I want to see this new airline succeed. I want to be able to work with Airway's guys and actually enjoy a four day with you.

Your six year's at the US Air Group is great. I'm glad you were able to find employment after your furlough. But the fact remains your name is on the US Airway's seniority list as a furloughed pilot. There is no history of bringing back furloughed guys just to displace active pilots to the street. So yes, my being on the active seniority list at AWA and flying the line means more than your six years at the US Air Group. If we don't merge, when is your expected recall date? If we don't merge, what is the probability I will be furloughed from AWA? Yes, I understand I can get furloughed tomorrow, but what is the probability based on our retirements and aircraft deliveries? Do furloughed American pilots working at Eagle, Delta guys at Comair or ASA - do they get special treatment because they also work for wholly owned subsidiaries? Or do the Continental pilots owe me something for the 5 years my paycheck had Continental Airlines on it and was signed by Gordon Bethune?

So where do you go on the seniority list? I'm not the arbitrator, but it is my opinion that furloughed pilots should be brought back on the bottom of the list as positions become available. I also think that if AWA needs pilots they should fill the slots with furloughed Airway's guys in seniority order instead of taking anyone from our pool or off the street.

As for the integration of the active/flying pilots - I won't even go there. I don't advocate a stable - I think ALPA merger policy should be followed to the tee and I will accept the results.

 

[Cactus73]

She and her friends are going to be disappointed.

She can return to work as soon as there are new vacancies as a new hire with accrued longevity minus the furloughed years.

Did you confront that obnoxious b!tch?

I totally agree with you.

We didn't confront her. It was on that early 4:35am shuttle and we were just too tired to start the converstation.

What took as by surprise was her "expectation" and her statements that she and her fellow furloughees were gearing up for the fight.

There should be no fight.

 

[Crzipilot]

These USAir folks are not to be trusted. Ive seen current and past US MEC's sell their souls to the devil just to further their
own agendas at the expense of all others,including their own company. Remember the "Delta/United plus 1% " contract of just a few years ago? Those guys were cashing checks that company couldn't cover when times we're good, never mind today.I've never met a more beligerent,obnoxious group
of pilots in my life. What you experienced in the van with "Dolly Dimples" is a perfect example.

PHXFLYR

Interesting, if you knew the history of the 1% contract, you'd know that basically it was a management idea, and one which there was alot of grief taken over this. Basically everyone was expecting a pay cut from this deal. (At the time, US I believe had some of the higher payscales, as they did through most of the 90's.) When the number crunching got done, and the scales came out......the MEC started patting themselves on the back for such a great job done, when just a week prior, everyone was doom and gloom. BUT the idea came down from management, as a way to cut payscales to get them more in line with Delta and United.

 

[321 busdriver]

I'm U, and as such I believe that seniorty integration will be difficult at best. Not to turn against my "peeps", but that girl is in for a rude awakening.QUOTE=Cactus73]I totally agree with you.

We didn't confront her. It was on that early 4:35am shuttle and we were just too tired to start the converstation.

What took as by surprise was her "expectation" and her statements that she and her fellow furloughees were gearing up for the fight.

There should be no fight.[/QUOTE]

 

[321 busdriver]

Hey PhxFlyer, how do I say this with as much tact as possible. Here goes. BITE ME! What an ignorant statement to make. If you have a beef with U management, well, get in line. If you have a beef with some U pilot(s), or something they said that may have offended you, so be it. But to say that as a group that we are beligerent and obnoxious couldn't be farther from the truth. Try to refrain from making such a$$inine statements in the future.

These USAir folks are not to be trusted. Ive seen current and past US MEC's sell their souls to the devil just to further their
own agendas at the expense of all others,including their own company. Remember the "Delta/United plus 1% " contract of just a few years ago? Those guys were cashing checks that company couldn't cover when times we're good, never mind today.I've never met a more beligerent,obnoxious group
of pilots in my life. What you experienced in the van with "Dolly Dimples" is a perfect example.

PHXFLYR

 

[Crzipilot]

So where do you go on the seniority list? I'm not the arbitrator, but it is my opinion that furloughed pilots should be brought back on the bottom of the list as positions become available. I also think that if AWA needs pilots they should fill the slots with furloughed Airway's guys in seniority order instead of taking anyone from our pool or off the street.


Interesting concept here. Though talk of career expectations, Yes I'm furloughed at present time, BUT, as Airways has shown, it continues to limp along and survive, even though it's been rumored it's going Chp 7 for the past 5 yrs, or longer. With that said, expected recall date, with present fleet, prob. less than 5 years, more like 2 or less. Beyond that, I'm expected to spend last 10 yrs left seat of a widebody, retireing in the top 10 of the seniority list. With that being said, I should be brought back behind someone hired at AWA 3 months ago? Hmmmmm.......try again. Maybe take that concept, and as positions become open, the furloughees are brought back, with where they would be slotted with their seniority. Retains some sembelance of seniority and doesn't put any AWA people on the street.

 

[Cactus73]

So where do you go on the seniority list? I'm not the arbitrator, but it is my opinion that furloughed pilots should be brought back on the bottom of the list as positions become available. I also think that if AWA needs pilots they should fill the slots with furloughed Airway's guys in seniority order instead of taking anyone from our pool or off the street.


Interesting concept here. Though talk of career expectations, Yes I'm furloughed at present time, BUT, as Airways has shown, it continues to limp along and survive, even though it's been rumored it's going Chp 7 for the past 5 yrs, or longer. With that said, expected recall date, with present fleet, prob. less than 5 years, more like 2 or less. Beyond that, I'm expected to spend last 10 yrs left seat of a widebody, retireing in the top 10 of the seniority list. With that being said, I should be brought back behind someone hired at AWA 3 months ago? Hmmmmm.......try again. Maybe take that concept, and as positions become open, the furloughees are brought back, with where they would be slotted with their seniority. Retains some sembelance of seniority and doesn't put any AWA people on the street.

Crizpilot,

I think the problem here is that furloughed pilots are generally considered to have zero career expectations. I think that the situation you are in sucks. You obviously put in time at Airway's and got furloughed do to your managements poor performance over the last ten years. They have been so busy shopping the airline and attacking labor, they have let the entire airline get run over by LCC's and even some of the legacies. I'm no expert and I even question the statements of those that claim they are, but most agree that Airway's is dangerously close to liquidation. This isn't some accounting game or hiding money scheme. Airway's has been very fortunate in that GE and other creditors have been willing to lend money to the airline in hopes that it could somehow survive. Minus a merger deal or asset sale, GE and others were going to pull the plug on the airline. As to how much longer Airway's has/had, who knows? The economy could turn tomorrow and everyone could be making money again.

As for returning from furlough and pushing down guys like me from my career expectations, doesn't sound fair either. It is also quite unlikely that Parker is going to agree to a list whereby every time a high cost pilot retires another one comes on to take his place.

What do you do with all the USAir furloughed guys that currently work at AWA? Do they get to jump seniority when their recall off the USAir list comes?

I'm not going to argue this with you because obviously we have different perspectives. If I were in your shoes I would probably feel the same as you do. I do suggest that you read LOA 93. I've read it a few times and to be quite honest I don't understand much in it - I think you have to be a lawyer. It does seem to give away much of your bargaining power as fuloughees in the event Airway's enters into a merger while in bankruptcy.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well now, interesting the bringing up of LOA 93...and in reality, it is a fairly easy read. The term seat puts most everything out there in plain language. And if you had read it a few times, you would prob. understand that 99% of what's in there is changes to the Mainline contract and terms within it. There's nothing in there regarding recall rights or rights of furloughees etc, except for the small section on loosing your recall rights if you resign from MDA within 12months of training etc etc.

I agree there is not an argument to be had, As your career expectations are what they are, and mine are mine. Narrow body vs. Wide body, trickle of retirements, vs massive retirements. Who knows where any of it would go. Just as everyone is giving the arguement that Parker is saying that AWA is hurting financially to get the deal done, hmmmmm......couldn't US be showing numbers and such to show it close to liquidation to get the deal done. I think I remember specifically a quote from a past CEO, that if the merger wasn't completed US would definately liquidate, it was a goner, goodbye. Well that quote was ohhhhhhhh 4-5 years ago. It's still here. yes hurting, but there isn't a pilot out there that can tell what true shape US is in or the others, who knows what a year from now will be.
I definately don't have the answer as to how to handle the lower part of the lists, and definately don't know how to handle the upper parts. Take two reps from each side (upper seniority, lower seniority) Lock them in a room....no tv, no food, no water, no women, no beer and tell them they can come out when they have a combined list. Prob. the easiest and cheapest way to go.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Well now, interesting the bringing up of LOA 93...and in reality, it is a fairly easy read. The term seat puts most everything out there in plain language. And if you had read it a few times, you would prob. understand that 99% of what's in there is changes to the Mainline contract and terms within it. There's nothing in there regarding recall rights or rights of furloughees etc, except for the small section on loosing your recall rights if you resign from MDA within 12months of training etc etc.

I agree there is not an argument to be had, As your career expectations are what they are, and mine are mine. Narrow body vs. Wide body, trickle of retirements, vs massive retirements. Who knows where any of it would go. Just as everyone is giving the arguement that Parker is saying that AWA is hurting financially to get the deal done, hmmmmm......couldn't US be showing numbers and such to show it close to liquidation to get the deal done. I think I remember specifically a quote from a past CEO, that if the merger wasn't completed US would definately liquidate, it was a goner, goodbye. Well that quote was ohhhhhhhh 4-5 years ago. It's still here. yes hurting, but there isn't a pilot out there that can tell what true shape US is in or the others, who knows what a year from now will be.
I definately don't have the answer as to how to handle the lower part of the lists, and definately don't know how to handle the upper parts. Take two reps from each side (upper seniority, lower seniority) Lock them in a room....no tv, no food, no water, no women, no beer and tell them they can come out when they have a combined list. Prob. the easiest and cheapest way to go.

You may want to go back and re read that LOA again!!!! Here are a few hints for you BANKRUPT!! SECTIONS 1C D AND F of your contract DON'T Apply!! Check it out and report back.

WD.

 

[BeCareful!]

Crizpilot,

I think the problem here is that furloughed pilots are generally considered to have zero career expectations..

Yeah, Cactus, I agree.

I think that you think that certainly is a problem.

You mean to tell me if AWA furloughed you tomorrow you'd pack up, leave PHX, and never, ever expect to be recalled? If they started restructuring, cutting costs, cleaning house, buying more RJ's than god can count, you'd just pack it in and say there's nothing there for you?

Riiiiight!

Like Criz, I've always had the expectation that when the resturcturing was complete and US Airways' massive retirements started occuring, I would be recalled, have fairly rapid advancement, and retire in the left seat of the A330. The past 4 years were a big speed bump, for sure, but the fundamental seniority picture hasn't changed. We still have more retirements coming in the next 10-15 years than you do total pilots.

I take it that you feel entitled to fly the A330/A350 before I get to. Can you explain this irrational expectation? Were they part of AWA's fleet plan when you hired on?

 

[Crzipilot]

You may want to go back and re read that LOA again!!!! Here are a few hints for you BANKRUPT!! SECTIONS 1C D AND F of your contract DON'T Apply!! Check it out and report back.

WD.

Actually Section 1C3, 1d, 1j1 Will not apply to distribution of equity, or redistribution of equity associated with endeavoring to achieve, or achieving, a confirmed plan or reorganization.

Section 1F doesn't apply in case of fragmentation while in BK.

Now what do those sections apply to???? recall of furloughs? no......why don't u report back as to what the ML contract states...

 

[BeCareful!]

You may want to go back and re read that LOA again!!!! Here are a few hints for you BANKRUPT!! SECTIONS 1C D AND F of your contract DON'T Apply!! Check it out and report back.

WD.

Yeah, we've all flown with a guy like you, WD. "Don't confuse me with the facts! I've made up my mind!"


You're wrong about the LOA.....I've read it and discussed it with my former mainline rep. May I suggest a cup of herbal tea and some deep breathing?


BTW, when US Air Group emerges in September, will you stop calling us BANKRUPT (?), especially since we are only reorganizing in CH11 as opposed to 7? thanks, man.....appreciate it.

 

[miles otoole]

Crizpilot,

I think the problem here is that furloughed pilots are generally considered to have zero career expectations.

Maybe we should ask the AWA CA who left for WN what he thought of his career expectations at AWA. Did he see the writing on the wall that the AAA furloughees are now reading????

 

[TWA Dude]

Boy, this is degenerating into a typical TWA vs AA argument. The difference is the roles keep reversing. So much anger. Life's too short.

 

[aa73]

Boy, this is degenerating into a typical TWA vs AA argument. The difference is the roles keep reversing. So much anger. Life's too short.

Hate to break it to you but these type of arguments are Modus operandi in EVERY airline merger that has ever taken place.

You are right, life is too short.

73

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Yeah, we've all flown with a guy like you, WD. "Don't confuse me with the facts! I've made up my mind!"


You're wrong about the LOA.....I've read it and discussed it with my former mainline rep. May I suggest a cup of herbal tea and some deep breathing?


BTW, when US Air Group emerges in September, will you stop calling us BANKRUPT (?), especially since we are only reorganizing in CH11 as opposed to 7? thanks, man.....appreciate it.

First of all son back the F up!!!!! "we've all flown with a guy like you" get your head on right. This thinking of entitlement by you furloughed types is way off. What makes you think just because WE toss your carrier a life line you can just come in here stomping??? You had better take you own advice and chill out. Parker could always use controlled liquidation to further slim you down. Rememeber with times such as they are your contract is worth about as much as the paper it's typed on YOUR BANKRUPT!!!!!! time to face the fact here don't you think??? Now regarding your thoughts of emerging from bankruptcy in Sept HOW?? Oh yeah THRU A MERGER WITH A VIABLE CARRIER that's how... You are entitled to NOTHING!!!! so you need to stop with that non sense. All you folks bring to the table is Debt and employees nothing profitable...

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Actually Section 1C3, 1d, 1j1 Will not apply to distribution of equity, or redistribution of equity associated with endeavoring to achieve, or achieving, a confirmed plan or reorganization.

Section 1F doesn't apply in case of fragmentation while in BK.

Now what do those sections apply to???? recall of furloughs? no......why don't u report back as to what the ML contract states...

It's unnecessary!!!! The contract is worthless!!! If it's too costly Management will simply use bankruptcy laws to terminate and liquidate!!! Controlled liquidation is the only option no one has even mentioned!!! That can start the minute this thing is signed off on. No need to get into heated debate over this. It will be decided and done without input from either of us!!! I feel for the furloughed AAA pilots but if the arguement is to place active AWA line pilots on the street in place of furloughed AAA pilots then you already know my stance.

WD.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Hey PhxFlyer, how do I say this with as much tact as possible. Here goes. BITE ME! What an ignorant statement to make. If you have a beef with U management, well, get in line. If you have a beef with some U pilot(s), or something they said that may have offended you, so be it. But to say that as a group that we are beligerent and obnoxious couldn't be farther from the truth. Try to refrain from making such a$$inine statements in the future.

Just look at the post by Crzipilot right after yours posted above ... I rest my case.


Re: "Bite Me" I thought you original Piedmont guys had more class than that

PHXFLYR

 

[Cactus73]

Yeah, Cactus, I agree.

I think that you think that certainly is a problem.

You mean to tell me if AWA furloughed you tomorrow you'd pack up, leave PHX, and never, ever expect to be recalled? If they started restructuring, cutting costs, cleaning house, buying more RJ's than god can count, you'd just pack it in and say there's nothing there for you?

Riiiiight!

Like Criz, I've always had the expectation that when the resturcturing was complete and US Airways' massive retirements started occuring, I would be recalled, have fairly rapid advancement, and retire in the left seat of the A330. The past 4 years were a big speed bump, for sure, but the fundamental seniority picture hasn't changed. We still have more retirements coming in the next 10-15 years than you do total pilots.

I take it that you feel entitled to fly the A330/A350 before I get to. Can you explain this irrational expectation? Were they part of AWA's fleet plan when you hired on?

Where did I ever say I expected to fly the A330/A350? Currently AWA doesn't have the A330. I have no/zero career expecation of every flying this airplane. The A350 will be a new type to both airlines, so yes I guess I can have a small expectation if I'm around long enough.

Who says you would be recalled? By most accounts, including the road show given to you guys before the merger was announced, it was find a partner or liquidate. I believe ALPA and the Unions did their own economic analysis and knew too that the writing was on the wall.

I don't have any crazy career expectations. In fact, I'll be happy to keep my job. But I don't think that I should go to the street for some guy that has given six years flying a CRJ for a wholly owned. We have guys here that put in 10 years at US Air wholly owned regionals. Should they get a jump in seniority to honor their time?

The line has to be drawn in the sand at some point. I don't want to fly your precious A330 and I don't want you bumping me out of PHX.

It's funny, the only sounds of anger are coming from the USAir furloughed guys. Most of the current flying guys on here seem great and they seem all for letting ALPA merger policy run its course. They also seem like stand-up guys that will be great to fly with once the dust settles.

As I said before, I think it sucks you were furloughed. But you were furloughed for reasons that had nothing do to with AWA. I'm not willing to give up my job to bring you back - nothing personal.