Awa Merger

[Boeing747Driver]

This from one of your own.... See what I mean?

PHXFLYR

Hey PHX I am an AWA F/O not one of them.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I know.


PHXFLYR

 

[BeCareful!]

Hey, Green -


How long have the gdmned newspapers been predicting the demise of US Airways?


Do you believe everything you read in USA Today? Everything the "analysists" say?

He!! yes US Airways will make it, with or without this merger. People were throwing money at it left and right long before the AWA merge was announced. Money talks, and Bronner and Lakefield know how to find LOTS of money.

As far as you saying: "Without trying to sound like a complete a##hole, you don't have any career expectations as a furloughed US Airways pilot.


Too late, man.....you already do. I know too many pilots who've survived furlough at other airlines to agree with what you and soooooo many AWA pilots keep saying here. Sure, it's the convenient thing to say when you think it might get you off reserve more quickly, or help boost that windfall-turbo-senoirity you're all salivating over. But, yes, it still makes you look like......well, you know, you said it yourself.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Hey, Green -


How long have the gdmned newspapers been predicting the demise of US Airways?


Do you believe everything you read in USA Today? Everything the "analysists" say?

He!! yes US Airways will make it, with or without this merger. People were throwing money at it left and right long before the AWA merge was announced. Money talks, and Bronner and Lakefield know how to find LOTS of money.

As far as you saying: "Without trying to sound like a complete a##hole, you don't have any career expectations as a furloughed US Airways pilot.


Too late, man.....you already do. I know too many pilots who've survived furlough at other airlines to agree with what you and soooooo many AWA pilots keep saying here. Sure, it's the convenient thing to say when you think it might get you off reserve more quickly, or help boost that windfall-turbo-senoirity you're all salivating over. But, yes, it still makes you look like......well, you know, you said it yourself.

Be Careful, let me help you out. You have indicated that I am angry and that I have been swinging for the fences since this thing was announced. You could not be more wrong!! I will tell you what does get under my skin. REGIONAL JET PILOTS such as yourself feeling that because you are furloughed from AAA that you are entitled to bump ANY ACTIVE MAIN LINE AWA PILOT to the street for your advancement!!!! Understand that I, TWA DUDE, PHX FLYR and others feel for you and most if not all of us would rather see that all hiring off the street stop until you furloughed pilots brought in FIRST but as new hires with longetivity for pay ONLY. Keep in mind my friend, AWA was hiring while you were flying for the wholly owned!!! We were running classes while AAA was furloughing and parking airframes!!! My guess is that as soon as the rhetoric regarding furloughes being entitled to anything stops you may find that we may be more inviteing...

WD.

 

[Green]

Becareful,

Again I think you are being ridiculously naieve to think that US Airways will survive on its own for the next 15-20 years in its present size/form. It's just not going to happen. We'll agree to disagree.

As for "turbo-seniority" that is not what I am looking for as a junior AWA employee. I am looking to "maintain or improve pre-merger career prospects." I believe that is right out of Alpa merger policy. For me that means a job and an upgrade in about 6-9 years. Now what were your pre-merger career expectations? Honestly?

For a furloughed Us Airways pilot to claim that his/her career expectations are higher than an active AWA pilot is absurd, regardless of what year you were hired. Find me a single knowledgable person who doesn't have an AAA seniority number that predicts a rosy future for Airways and I'll take back my statements.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Career expectations? Do you honestly believe that without a lifeline from AWA your airline would be in business in 5 years, let alone 15? Furloughs are a terrible thing and this is a dirty, unfair business but I don't think that you can sanely bring career expectations into this argument. Without trying to sound like a complete a##hole, you don't have any career expectations as a furloughed US Airways pilot. We should be fair but bringing hundreds of AAA pilots off the street to sit captain for an AWA fo is not fair, regardless of when US Airways hired you.

Green, my friend, you're reading way too much into what I said. I'm not advocating that furloughed USAirways pilots be brought in above junior AWA pilots. What I advocate in this merger is some serious fences that will protect your expectations and to protect the expectations of the junior and furloughed USAirways pilots. It is the only way to keep things fair. Somebody a lot smarter than me will have to sit down with the lists, look at ages, retirements, etc to come up with a fair and equiatable solution that best protects both pilot groups.

You say that you expect to be a Captain at AWA in 6 to 9 years. What would happen to that projection if AWA went bankrupt again ? It could easily happen. Post 9-11 AWA pilots were bailing for jetBlue left and right, what were their career expectations ? Why did they leave ? Right now AWA looks okay, not good, but okay. That could all change due to one of many factors.

Same thing at USAirways. It looks bad right now, but it could all change for the better. For what it's worth, even though I am furloughed, I woud expect to hold Captain there in 8 years maximum. So our career expectations at 8 years in the future are pretty similar. The difference is that my career expectations after that 8 years are a move up the list at around 300 to 400 numbers per year and retiring as the number 10 pilot or better in 2025.

On a combined list, I wouldn't expect to be placed in a position to hold you back from your expecation, but neither should you expect to placed on the list in a position to hold me back from mine. The only answer for that to happen is for fences to be erected around the different bases. I.E. you always hold your relative seniority and/or career expectation at your bases and I always hold mine at mine. If you choose to move east, then you have to come at date of hire. If I move west, I have to come at relative position.

The trouble with this scenario is when flying shifts from one base to another; base closure, new equipment types, etc. How to handle that would have to be spelled out in any agreement as well.


TP

 

[BeCareful!]

Find me a single knowledgable person who doesn't have an AAA seniority number that predicts a rosy future for Airways and I'll take back my statements.

Bruce Lakefield

 

[BeCareful!]

Be Careful, let me help you out.

No thanks.....I'll pass.

I will tell you what does get under my skin. REGIONAL JET PILOTS such as yourself feeling that because you are furloughed from AAA that you are entitled to bump ANY ACTIVE MAIN LINE AWA PILOT to the street for your advancement!!!!

WD, I guess you don't read the whole thread, or the person you have read it to you skipped something, but I have never, never, not even once, suggested that an active AWA pilot should see some street time.

Clear?

Am I gonna have to say it again?

Enjoy widebody school when it comes around.

Happy windfall to you and yours.

 

[BeCareful!]

Now what were your pre-merger career expectations? Honestly?

Recall in about five to six years, with rapid advancement after that due to retirements. Honestly.


Oh, but of course I read that we were going out of business a bunch of times in several newspapers, so I guess it's ok for you and your AWA brethren to say that my expectations were folly. We'll see what the arbitrator says.

 

[MCDU]

There is no such thing as career expectations. When Cactus was in bankruptcy, did they have career expectations? How about Continental? Again, there is no such thing as career expectations. Just look where United is now. No more 4 year upgrades there. People where leaving AMWEST daily to go to United etc, because every one thought AMWEST was going tits up a few years ago.

Marty

 

[Wiskey Driver]

No thanks.....I'll pass.






WD, I guess you don't read the whole thread, or the person you have read it to you skipped something, but I have never, never, not even once, suggested that an active AWA pilot should see some street time.

Clear?

Am I gonna have to say it again?

Enjoy widebody school when it comes around.

Happy windfall to you and yours.

You right I didn't read the whole thing (BUSTED)!!! Selective reading just as bad as selective hearing I guess. Now to the point. WD has a 6hr A$$ which means widebody school for me out!! Windfall I really doubt. Relative seniority is what most are looking for...

WD.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Bruce Lakefield

ROITFLMAO

 

[PHXFLYR]

You know,you USAir types are really getting strung out over this widebody Airbus issue. Most of the guys and gals I flew with in the 737 program had no desire to fly east of STL never mind Europe. That's why they didn't bid the Airbus here at AWA, even though they could have done so years ago. As for me after 1 year in the A319/320 I could care less if I ever fly another Airbus product again. So for me anyway,you can take those 330's ,350's or what ever other Aeronautical Puegueot we might have the poor misfoutune of purchasing in the future and you can keep 'em.


PHXFLYR

 

[Boeing747Driver]

I second that. Did the worldwide stuff in a previous life and have no desire to do it in a scarebus.

You know,you USAir types are really getting strung out over this widebody Airbus issue. Most of the guys and gals I flew with in the 737 program had no desire to fly east of STL never mind Europe. That's why they didn't bid the Airbus here at AWA, even though they could have done so years ago. As for me after 1 year in the A319/320 I could care less if I ever fly another Airbus product again. So for me anyway,you can take those 330's ,350's or what ever other airborne Puegueot we might have the poor misfoutune of purchasing in the future and you can keep 'em.


PHXFLYR

 

[Cactus73]

The A350 is simply an outgrowth of the A330. Same type rating, just spruced up to compete with the B787. Enjoy it! It should be a nice ride. Training on it will most likely be in CLT, as that's where the sim is. (the sim is convertible, even to the A340, as our options included A340's as well.....little known fact.) Believe it or not, great Mexican food very close to the hotel.

Not according to this Dow Jones release:

"Airbus originally planned to make the A350 a derivative of its existing A330 airliner, basically changing the wing and giving it new engines. But in view of the lukewarm customer interest in that project, the company has had to rethink its design in recent months, adding extra seats and tweaking its range performance.

The A350 that's being offered to airlines now will be a virtually all-new aircraft, and only about 10% of the A330's components will be retained. Cockpit commonality with other members of the Airbus wide-body range will ensure that training costs will be minimized."

You guys (furloughed) pilots seem so sensitive that some AWA guy is going to come in and steal your "career expecation" wide-body A330 seat. Honestly, most of us don't want it. I fly the 737 because I don't like red-eyes and I don't like legs over 2 hours.

Just be careful (no pun intended) about posting information without the facts. The A350 will be a new type to both airlines.

 

[FNB]

one more vote

The 37 is old, and loud. But I would much rather stay in it and never have to see the sunrise over memphis with another 2 hours to go. Assume all you want, I'll fly up and down the west coast and go to Europe on vacation.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Relative seniority combination of the two Active lists. Then recall furloughs as needed at the bottom of the newly combined seniority list.

Or quit and find a new job...no one will force you to stay (or be recalled).

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Relative seniority combination of the two Active lists. Then recall furloughs as needed at the bottom of the newly combined seniority list.

Or quit and find a new job...no one will force you to stay (or be recalled).

Can't be made any clearer than that!!! Well said.

WD.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Things that make you go Hmmm:

CO class breakdown
The breakdown for our June 7th class as follows,

ExJet (4)
USMC
America West
DAL Jet Mgmt.
Skywest
ATA
American Eagle
West Coast Charters

My welcome to all who join us, and are intrested in this company.

TP

 

[typhoonpilot]

Relative seniority combination of the two Active lists. Then recall furloughs as needed at the bottom of the newly combined seniority list.

Or quit and find a new job...no one will force you to stay (or be recalled).

Sorry, that won't work. It gives super seniority to all America West pilots after 10 years.

Almost all the active USAir pilots will be gone in ten years. In this scenario the AWA pilots get roughly 220 more aircraft worth of growth in ten years leaving the furloughed USAirways pilots ( many with 15 years of service ) out in the cold. Not fair and shouldn't happen this way. Please try again and stop thinking selfishly.

There is a workable solution and it involves fences. That is the best way to go for both groups.

TP

 

[Cactus73]

Things that make you go Hmmm

TP

TP,

Doesn't make anyone go Hmmm. It was one pilot on the 757 that was here only a few months. He was a IAH commuter. Lived there and was from there.

He also came from XJT.


There isn't some mass exodus from here. It was one guy on the bottom of the list.

 

[BeCareful!]

There isn't some mass exodus from here. It was one guy on the bottom of the list.

I don't doubt it. With the potential windfall coming AWA's way, I would think most people would hold still......especially if they commute from parts east.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Sorry, that won't work. It gives super seniority to all America West pilots after 10 years.

Almost all the active USAir pilots will be gone in ten years. In this scenario the AWA pilots get roughly 220 more aircraft worth of growth in ten years leaving the furloughed USAirways pilots ( many with 15 years of service ) out in the cold. Not fair and shouldn't happen this way. Please try again and stop thinking selfishly.

There is a workable solution and it involves fences. That is the best way to go for both groups.

TP

Sorry, It will work. It would work perfectly fine. What you meant to say is that you don't like it. That's ok. Although I would think that you would be happy just having a job down the road.

Look at it this way...right now your career expectation is to be recalled at the bottom of a seniority list. With my proposal you will be recalled at the bottom of a seniority list.

Anyways, if you're on the street right now you don't have much of a say in it.

 

[Cactus73]

I don't doubt it. With the potential windfall coming AWA's way, I would think most people would hold still......especially if they commute from parts east.

I seriously doubt AWA pilots are going to get a windfall. Almost all of us just want to keep our PHX/LAS base and current seats. There should be fences and if someone wants to head east in a few years they should have to wait for a vacancy and then go where their seniority can take them.

What is the precedent for furloughed pilots returning and jumping seniority ahead of active pilots? Has it happened in the past? I'm asking because I don't know. What type of fence and how long would it need to be in effect?

Based on statements from our CEO's Parker and Lakefield, I think you are dreaming if you think this is going to happen.

I personally think you should have permanent recall rights. With 1900 furloughed, you are going to need a 10-15 year fence. Do you think the company is going to agree to such a long fence? It cost a lot of money to do this.

You still haven't answered my question about the furloughed AAA guys working here at AWA. It's a sizable number.

 

[jon coqtoestone]

There is a workable solution and it involves fences. That is the best way to go for both groups.

TP

I couldn't agree more with the fence idea. I, personally, would like to see a good old fashioned block wall that extends at least 25 years (with a provision to extend it further after age-60 goes bye-bye). [Thought ya'all could use a little levity . . .]

Cheers!

 

[321 busdriver]

No, that won't work. What about us 20 year guys who aren't furloughed? It would absolutely give AWA super seniorty. If your idea of "fair" is to put a 20 year F/O at the 70% mark at U the same relative position at the combined airline, then you need to rethink your position. I am fairly sure that an arbitrator will look at some sort of fence agreement long before your "scenerio" ever comes to pass.

Sorry, It will work. It would work perfectly fine. What you meant to say is that you don't like it. That's ok. Although I would think that you would be happy just having a job down the road.

Look at it this way...right now your career expectation is to be recalled at the bottom of a seniority list. With my proposal you will be recalled at the bottom of a seniority list.

Anyways, if you're on the street right now you don't have much of a say in it.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Hey Kids<


HERE'S an idea!!! Why don't we all just shut our yaps and let the 2 Merger Comittees sit down and see what they can come up with, OK? He11, a PID hasn't even been set yet.


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

.....

 

[Green]

321 Busdriver,

I don't see what isn't fair about combing the active pilots using relative seniority. You work for a stagnant airline with little or no movement. You chose to stay at an airline where you are in the bottom 30%, so after a merger why should you leap ahead of the bottom third of AWA? We are a financially stronger airline offering you a lifeline and yet you think you should be senior to all of our FO's who have been here under 9 years?

 

[Doug Parker]

Green,

I'd vote to staple AAA to the bottom

Now that is fair !