Awa Merger

[BeCareful!]

You still haven't answered my question about the furloughed AAA guys working here at AWA. It's a sizable number.

Furloughed AAA guys now working at AWA are.......um.......AWA guys. I assume they resigned their U seniority. Right?

If not, then I suppose they can exercise whatever rights that might get them. Like you and everyone else, I figure that equals about ZERO.

When I was hired at U, there were AWA guys bailing and starting over at US, because things looked much better here in 1999. Of course, all that's out the window now and you guys rightfully should get everything and anything you want. Afterall, your now at that fanancially vibrant, super west coast powerehouse, and you deseve weekends off and quick upgrades.

Happy windfall!

 

[Fly-n-hi]

No, that won't work. What about us 20 year guys who aren't furloughed? It would absolutely give AWA super seniorty. If your idea of "fair" is to put a 20 year F/O at the 70% mark at U the same relative position at the combined airline, then you need to rethink your position. I am fairly sure that an arbitrator will look at some sort of fence agreement long before your "scenerio" ever comes to pass.

Oh trust me, it will work. Like I said. You just don't like it.

What about you 20 year guys? So you've been there 20 years. Great. 20 years at U.S. Airways isn't worth a bag of crap right now. If your 20 years is so wonderful then why are you a junior FO?

I don't care how long you've been there. I just care where you sit on the seniority list. If you are in the bottom 10% of you active list then you should be in the bottom 10% of the newly combined list.

Why you think that your 20 years entitles you to automatically be senior to me baffles me. Actually it doesn't baffle me. I can see that its just pure greed.

As far as the Arbitrator is concerned, yeah, he might go for the fence idea, as long as no one tells him that your own CEO, Lakefield, said that U.S. Airways was finished without this merger. Yes...he said that.

 

[321 busdriver]

Did you read the entire post? I doubt it. If you had, you would have read that I think that a fence agreement would be fair to both airlines. NEVER did I say that I should move ahead of some 9 year AWA person. And as far as throwing us a lifeline... you either have a short memory or career or have not been with AWA long enough to know their history with reguards to their dealings with bankruptcy. Relative position is no more fair than date of hire. And to PHXFlyer... sounds good to me.

321 Busdriver,

I don't see what isn't fair about combing the active pilots using relative seniority. You work for a stagnant airline with little or no movement. You chose to stay at an airline where you are in the bottom 30%, so after a merger why should you leap ahead of the bottom third of AWA? We are a financially stronger airline offering you a lifeline and yet you think you should be senior to all of our FO's who have been here under 9 years?

 

[321 busdriver]

Will you please point out to me where I said that I should move ahead of you on the seniorty list. Again, did I not say that a fence agreement is the only fair way to both parties.. A bag of crap?... Really.. You must not have alot of confidence in your CEO then. And I never said that my 20 years is wonderful..anything but. As far as being greedy goes...Please. If this thing ever comes to pass, we can compare notes and see which way the ( I would guess ) the arbitration goes. I highly doubt that a relative position award will happen any more than it happened when U and Piedmont merged.

Oh trust me, it will work. Like I said. You just don't like it.

What about you 20 year guys? So you've been there 20 years. Great. 20 years at U.S. Airways isn't worth a bag of crap right now. If your 20 years is so wonderful then why are you a juniour FO?

I don't care how long you've been there. I just care where you sit on the seniority list. If you are in the bottom 10% of you active list then you should be in the bottom 10% of the newly combined list.

Why you think that your 20 years entitles you to automatically be senior to me baffles me. Actually it doesn't baffle me. I can see that its just pure greed.

As far as the Arbitrator is concerned, yeah, he might go for the fence idea, as long as no one tells him that your own CEO, Lakefield, said that U.S. Airways was finished without this merger. Yes...he said that.

 

[PHXFLYR]

IDIOTS.....I'm surrounded by IDIOTS!!!

Green,

I'd vote to staple AAA to the bottom

Now that is fair !

Hey"Parker"


You know, this statement just goes to show that what Southwest President Colleen Barrett said about you being on drugs was correct. Merger negotations
are going to be contentious enough without some idiot like you spouting B$
like that. Your ignorance and immaturity knows no bounds,does it?


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Financially Stronger........ I DON"T THINK SO!!

321 Busdriver,

I don't see what isn't fair about combing the active pilots using relative seniority. You work for a stagnant airline with little or no movement. You chose to stay at an airline where you are in the bottom 30%, so after a merger why should you leap ahead of the bottom third of AWA? We are a financially stronger airline offering you a lifeline and yet you think you should be senior to all of our FO's who have been here under 9 years?

Green,

I wouldn't be so quick to spout off that AWA is the stronger airline financially. Sure we made a profit last quarter, but that was because of our fuel hedge. Absent that we would have posted a $10 million dollar loss. Even though our yields and loads have increased considerably over the last several quarters I think from a financial point of view the company is just treading water, and as such we are all just 'whistling while walking past the grave yard." With that said ,I think what we ARE bringing to the merger is management "talent" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one ! ) and access to credit;both of which are in extremely short supply at USAir . But to base your argument on us being the financially stronger of the two? I don't think so...

PHXFLYR

 

[Cactus73]

Green,

I wouldn't be so quick to spout off that AWA is the stronger airline financially. Sure we made a profit last quarter, but that was because of our fuel hedge. Absent that we would have posted a $10 million dollar loss. Even though our yields and loads have increased considerably over the last several quarters I think from a financial point of view the company is just treading water, and as such we are all just 'whistling while walking past the grave yard." With that said ,I think what we ARE bringing to the merger is management "talent" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one ! ) and access to credit;both of which are in extremely short supply at USAir . But to base your argument on us being the financially stronger of the two? I don't think so...

PHXFLYR

PHXFLYR,

I think you are starting to believe Parker's (the real one) speeches lately. Just two months ago he was saying that we were no where near bankruptcy and he had plenty of access to the financial markets for cash if we got into a crunch later in the year. He clearly needs to paint a dire picture at this point in order to get the ATSB and the Court to approve his merger.

Don't write off our profit just because it was based on fuel hedges. Southwest would have lost a significant amount of money if it weren't for their fuel hedges.

I would agree that we aren't in the best of financial shape, but I don't think we are as close to bankruptcy as Parker claims.

Our cash position has actually been building over the first six months. It doesn't matter that this is happening due to fuel hedges. We have more cash than we owe on our ATSB secured loan. USAir has significantly less cash than they owe on their loan. This balance sheet difference is substantial.

Would we be bankrupt in six months? Only Parker and his team have access to the books. Let's let our investment bankers determine if he is correct or not before you buy his line.

The recent statements by Parker are so opposed to what he has said in the past that you must question his motives.

As for the Doug Parker guy on this board. He's an ass to suggest a staple or anything unfair. He's no different though than the furloughed guys on here claiming some sort of career expectation to be in the top 5% in the next 5-10 years.

We need a fair and equitable list with fences. We have to all be able to work together when the dust settles. The only way this is going to happen is if we all sit back and let our merger committee's and/or and arbitrator work out a new list.

Who knows, maybe Southwest will offer a billion of their cash up for gates and planes and scuttle the deal. PLEASE Southwest, help us!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

No, that won't work. What about us 20 year guys who aren't furloughed? It would absolutely give AWA super seniorty. If your idea of "fair" is to put a 20 year F/O at the 70% mark at U the same relative position at the combined airline, then you need to rethink your position. I am fairly sure that an arbitrator will look at some sort of fence agreement long before your "scenerio" ever comes to pass.

Ok so if you feel that relative seniority won't work what exactally would be your solution??? We all know that DOH won't work because that is nothing more than a staple of our list to the bottom of yours. So what is the grand plan???

WD.

 

[Dizel8]

How about one for one on the combined list, now the only question is, who gets the top slot, U or AWA?

 

[Draginass]

Just remember, whoevers at the bottom of the list is going to be gone, gone, gone. There's not nearly enough money nor time won't fix the decay at U.

 

[PHXFLYR]

PHXFLYR,

I think you are starting to believe Parker's (the real one) speeches lately. Just two months ago he was saying that we were no where near bankruptcy and he had plenty of access to the financial markets for cash if we got into a crunch later in the year. He clearly needs to paint a dire picture at this point in order to get the ATSB and the Court to approve his merger.

Don't write off our profit just because it was based on fuel hedges. Southwest would have lost a significant amount of money if it weren't for their fuel hedges.

I would agree that we aren't in the best of financial shape, but I don't think we are as close to bankruptcy as Parker claims.

Our cash position has actually been building over the first six months. It doesn't matter that this is happening due to fuel hedges. We have more cash than we owe on our ATSB secured loan. USAir has significantly less cash than they owe on their loan. This balance sheet difference is substantial.

Would we be bankrupt in six months? Only Parker and his team have access to the books. Let's let our investment bankers determine if he is correct or not before you buy his line.

The recent statements by Parker are so opposed to what he has said in the past that you must question his motives.

As for the Doug Parker guy on this board. He's an ass to suggest a staple or anything unfair. He's no different though than the furloughed guys on here claiming some sort of career expectation to be in the top 5% in the next 5-10 years.

We need a fair and equitable list with fences. We have to all be able to work together when the dust settles. The only way this is going to happen is if we all sit back and let our merger committee's and/or and arbitrator work out a new list.

Who knows, maybe Southwest will offer a billion of their cash up for gates and planes and scuttle the deal. PLEASE Southwest, help us!

No I'm not. I've been here for 8 years now and I just can't help but wonder why we haven't been profitable on a consistent basis. I mean these people don't pay the going rate for anything, be it employees,infrastructure,aircraft leases, heavy checks,facilities, etc. You would think that would translate into boo-koo bottom line over and over,but it never really did. I really think this thing is structured alot like TWA was in the 50's and early 60's where it was all owned by Howard Hughes. Only our "Howard Hughes" was David Bonderman and his cronies at TPG who sunk just enough money in this thing over the years to keep it "above the water mark". Now he is using this merger to cut his losses and run. You know, I'm reaching the point whereI don't give a damm where I end up on the senority list. Just watching these USAir folks getting used to the AWA of doing business might be worth the aggravation and heartbreak in sheer "entertainment value" alone .

PHXFLYR

 

[nitrogen]

Oops

Don't ever speak the truth here. You'll get censored then banned. But I see some people are waking up to the reality of this situation which is good.

I'm sure I'll get suspended again for speaking the truth. That's not allowed here. Only handholding and Kumbaya singing. Thats how this facist board works. If they don't like what you say, boom.

Thank God we don't live in a country that operates that way. The moderators of this board are a joke and should be censored themselves. Sadly free speech doesn't count here. Pathetic.

UAL78, you and your company are a joke. Fortunately, neither of you will be around much longer. Typical UAL lemming attitude that got you to this point to begin with. Say hello to Texas Investors. They're about to rock your world. And boy do you deserve it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Post hijacked for my reply to this "gentleman"

Hello, my hot-headed friend. It's UAL78, one of the jokes of FlightInfo.com. It's said that perception is reality. It must be quite a world through your eyes. I wonder which of the low-lifes that I permanently banned that you've morphed into? I ban posters who cross the line of propriety or simply can't disagree without being disagreeable. I don't ban people who believe they speak the truth unless it becomes potentially legally perilous to the owner of the Board or for the two reasons discussed above.

So I'll let your rant and perception of me stand. I really couldn't care less what you think of me or my airline. Judging by your demeanor and your philosophy, you're simply not worth the time or effort.

By the way, what were the dates of your two UAL interviews where you were turned down? Now, run along and don't forget to add some O2 to the mix. It sounds like you're in serious need of some professional help.

Post away, junior- just abide by the rules.

UAL78

Just remember, whoevers at the bottom of the list is going to be gone, gone, gone. There's not nearly enough money nor time won't fix the decay at U.

 

[Filkster]

Just watching these USAir folks getting used to the AWA of doing business might be worth the aggravation and heartbreak in sheer "entertainment value" alone .

PHXFLYR

No problem, the advance team for this has been doing J4J at Mesa for a couple years. They are up on all the latest.

RF

 

[TWA Dude]

Nitro: you violated your by-line "no crying while posting".

 

[Dangerkitty]

Thank God I am watching this from the sidelines! I am starting to have AA/TWA seniority list integration talk flashbacks.

Why dont all you guys call Senator Kit Bond of Missouri? He has been so concerned about the "fair and equitable" integrations of seniority lists in the past that I am sure he will go to bat for you guys in the Senate with this merger.

Note to anyone reading the above statement. That was my pathetic attempt at sarcasm. Just trying to lighten up the mood around here. Good luck.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

I actually do not have a problem with the fence idea. Mostly because I believe that there are more USA guys who want to go west than there are AWA guys who want to go east.

I'm still suppoting the relative integration of the two active lists followed by any recalled furloughs at the bottom of the newly combined list.

Here's the problem: If we put some super long fences up, say 15 years, and in 3 years we need to hire pilots to fill vacancies in PHX or LAS who's gonna fill the vacancies? It will have to be new hires off the street, right? So will they be senior to the furloughs who haven't been recalled on the USA side? What if the east coast bases just continually shrink?

If those vacancies I just mentioned are filled by USA furlough recalls then there is absolutely no way they should be senior to me or any other AWA pilot.

Solution? Go with my integration plan and offer this to the USA furloughs: You can take the first opportunity to be recalled at any base. If you go to an USA base you will have fence protection for as long as the fence lasts. If you go to an AWA base you just go to the bottom of the list. And because I'm a nice guy I would allow these recalled furloughs to bid back across the fence once to get back to the east coast as vacancies opened up in the original USA system.

 

[PHXFLYR]

No problem, the advance team for this has been doing J4J at Mesa for a couple years.....RF

At the expense of how many Senior Mesa RJ F/O's........?


PHXFLYR

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Originally Posted by Filkster
No problem, the advance team for this has been doing J4J at Mesa for a couple years.....RF

I was one of them. It sucked.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

At the expense of how many Senior Mesa RJ F/O's........?


PHXFLYR

I was one of them. It sucked.

 

[Cactus73]

The latest AAA MEC updates finish with the following:

"Please remember we now have 1,574 pilots on furlough with approximately 400 pilots currently working at MDA or other Jets For Jobs carriers."

Just two weeks ago, they finished with:

"Please remember we now have 1,974 pilots on furlough."


So we now know the position of the AAA MEC in regards to you guys flying at J4J airlines.

Doug Parker was asked about this at his latest employee meeting and he stated that he considers them to be on the furloughed list, not a separate group.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Cactus 73


I think you are reading way too much into that statement. Those folks at J4J
are still on the AAA senority list,status shown as furloughed,therefore they will be a factor in the intergration.Most of your posts are pretty much spot on,but this one is pure flame bait. May I suggest you do your homework before posting.

PHXFLYR

 

[Cactus73]

Cactus 73


I think you are reading way too much into that statement. Those folks at J4J
are still on the AAA senority list,status shown as furloughed,therefore they will be a factor in the intergration.Most of your posts are pretty much spot on,but this one is pure flame bait. May I suggest you do your homework before posting.

PHXFLYR

PHXFLYR,

Maybe I came off the wrong way here, but this thread has turned into a furloughee battle ground.

I didn't make the above up. The above change in language concerned the AWA communications chair enough to make a statement about it. Reps I have talked to also noticed the change and believe that they may want to include these guys as active pilots - not furloughees. This change in language also concerned a pilot enough to ask Doug Parker about it at Wednesday's brown bag. Parker is very clear when it comes to furloughed vs. active status.

I didn't really do much homework, but I didn't just post this out of thin air either.

 

[Boeing747Driver]

The latest AAA MEC updates finish with the following:

"Please remember we now have 1,574 pilots on furlough with approximately 400 pilots currently working at MDA or other Jets For Jobs carriers."

Just two weeks ago, they finished with:

"Please remember we now have 1,974 pilots on furlough."


So we now know the position of the AAA MEC in regards to you guys flying at J4J airlines.

Doug Parker was asked about this at his latest employee meeting and he stated that he considers them to be on the furloughed list, not a separate group.

1574 is the total with 400 of the 1574 at a J4J airline. AAA never had 1974 furloughed. The 1574 is an adjusted number from the 1876 taking into consideration resignations and retirements.

 

[Cactus73]

1574 is the total with 400 of the 1574 at a J4J airline. AAA never had 1974 furloughed. The 1574 is an adjusted number from the 1876 taking into consideration resignations and retirements.

Thanks for the update. I was under the impression that there were 1900 or so on furlough and of these, 400 or so were at J4J airlines. 1574 is a better number - although that is still way too many pilots out of work and on the street.

Hopefully this industry can turn itself around.

 

[Crzipilot]

Blah, Blah blah....ya furlough battle ground. Whatever... Obviously the Jr. at AWA are pulling at straws, as the furlough number was adjusted to reflected those which have reached age 60/resigned/or deceased. I belive the original number was 1876. And the mention of the 400 or so, is the number of individuals that have taken a j4j position. Which was basically a flow back, in which most of us are flying and shown as ACTIVE on the AAA certificate, or flying for a wholly owned, which agreed to the J4J program, which created a CEL list consisting of all the WO pilots which now have the ability to flow UPWARDS to mainline. Ohhh wait..let me guess....the AWA want to cut all of them off to take advantage of the 1600-1900 retirements in the next 10 yrs or so??????
Yeah right... The furloughees deserve their position, as do the CEL pilots. These two groups are the ones that have paid the most out of this deal.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Blah, Blah blah....ya furlough battle ground. Whatever... Obviously the Jr. at AWA are pulling at straws, as the furlough number was adjusted to reflected those which have reached age 60/resigned/or deceased. I belive the original number was 1876. And the mention of the 400 or so, is the number of individuals that have taken a j4j position. Which was basically a flow back, in which most of us are flying and shown as ACTIVE on the AAA certificate, or flying for a wholly owned, which agreed to the J4J program, which created a CEL list consisting of all the WO pilots which now have the ability to flow UPWARDS to mainline. Ohhh wait..let me guess....the AWA want to cut all of them off to take advantage of the 1600-1900 retirements in the next 10 yrs or so??????
Yeah right... The furloughees deserve their position, as do the CEL pilots. These two groups are the ones that have paid the most out of this deal.

Paid the most of what???? I am now all for the 10 to 15 yr fence, you see that way those in the east will remain in the east and those of us out west will remain out west. Furlough s ucks no doubt about it but AWA has zero on furlough so give me a ligit reason why ANY AWA PILOT today should be bumped down to place you ahead of us????

WD.

 

[dually]

Oh trust me, it will work. Like I said. You just don't like it.

[What about you 20 year guys? So you've been there 20 years. Great. 20 years at U.S. Airways isn't worth a bag of crap right now. If your 20 years is so wonderful then why are you a junior FO?]

I don't care how long you've been there. I just care where you sit on the seniority list. If you are in the bottom 10% of you active list then you should be in the bottom 10% of the newly combined list.

Why you think that your 20 years entitles you to automatically be senior to me baffles me. Actually it doesn't baffle me. I can see that its just pure greed.

As far as the Arbitrator is concerned, yeah, he might go for the fence idea, as long as no one tells him that your own CEO, Lakefield, said that U.S. Airways was finished without this merger. Yes...he said that.

FYI: 20 years @ U can hold left seat in any base.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

FYI: 20 years @ U can hold left seat in any base.

It's 18yrs that can't hold it

WD.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

FYI: 20 years @ U can hold left seat in any base.

FYI: I don't care how long you've been there. Am I supposed to say to myself "Wow, this guy has been there for 20 years!!!"

All I care about is your relative seniority.

And another FYI: I'm quoting one of your guys who mentioned 20 year FO's.

Quote by 321 Busdriver: "If your idea of "fair" is to put a 20 year F/O at the 70% mark at U the same relative position at the combined airline, then you need to rethink your position."

When it comes to integration I don't care about your longevity. I only care about your seniority. You do understand those are totally seperate from each other, right? If you're a 39 year U pilot and you are in the bottom 10% of the U list you should go to the bottom 10% of the combined list along with the bottom 10% AWA pilot.

You want fences? Fine! We'll put up fences...after we do a relative seniority integration and establish that furloughs get recalled to the bottom of the newly combined list. This way in 15 years or whatever when all the furlough recalls have upgraded on the east coast they will be able to remain as CA's as long as they don't try to bid over to the west coast.

It matters to me because I will be here (assuming the company lasts) for alot more than 15 years to come.

 

[dually]

Many FOs are 20 years plus for QOL.
I was just trying to get the facts out there and did
not intend to upset anybody. I know its a very stressful period.
I have no horse in this race, resigned long ago.
Best of luck to all of you.