Awa Merger

[Tonto]

I did not receive a letter, but I thought there had been an LOA that indicated the MEC said there are no recall rights for the furloughees. I am probably totally wrong, it was just something I read on this board. I hope we haven't, or don't lose them.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Any ideas about PDT/ALG with the merger? Or are we not on the radar scope....

Scott Kirby AWA Vice President Marketing likes the Dash 8 program. All 57 will be kept because"they are profitable and offer us some interesting flexibilty". Source was Aviation Daily about 2 weeks back. So I would say, yes you guys are on the radar screen!



PHXFLYR

Member Henson Aviation Alumni Comittee
4/86-7/96

 

[BraveSirRobin]

I've heard from a couple sources that they plan on offering an early retirement buyout to the top 300 USAir guys. If true, that would ease the need for furloughs.

Also, from talks in the hotel van, it seems there is a fair number of USAir guys who accept that their days were numbered and as long as they didnt get an outright screw job on seniority integration, they would be happy to finish out their final few years in peace. Fears of a big fight may be overblown.

Just my $.02

 

[SOVT]

I would expect that both MEC's will fight for fair integration. However, when it comes to the failing airline argument I think we need to look at the big picture. Here are a some comments from AWA's Parker just a couple of days ago.



"Both companies need this merger equally. It is important to the survival of both companies. Without it, the future is bleak for both companies. <<<



Parker said that without the merger, Uair would not be around for very long, and AWA would be in bankruptcy (Parker used that exact word: bankruptcy) in six to nine months.



>>> He will not play one employee group against another. It would be counterproductive. He doesn't think in those terms. <<<



Parker made this comment during the Q&A. This was parker’s response to xxxxx's question about “playing” one company against the other during the integration process."



I fully expect that my sixteen years at AAA will be recognized by my MEC and fought for voraciously

 

[Crzipilot]

I did not receive a letter, but I thought there had been an LOA that indicated the MEC said there are no recall rights for the furloughees. I am probably totally wrong, it was just something I read on this board. I hope we haven't, or don't lose them.

Tonto:

there's nothing in the LOA's that do away with any recall rights. Well scratch that, there is a provision if a furloughee takes a position with MDA and then resigns or leaves (think there's a time frame, not sure) then they will loose their recall rights back to mainline. (which is part of another on going argument) Otherwise, the recall rights are still there.
Either way there needs to be someone eyeballing the whole affair to ensure that the furloughees, and even at this point the people on the CEL list are protected for all that has occurred in the past 4 years.

BraveSirRobin, Define a total screw job????? AAA is to retire about 1600-1900 in the next 5 years....not counting the number of early outs, medicals etc........depending on the integration, who would stand to gain a large windfall just from that fact?

 

[Tonto]

I appreciate the accurate information. I'm not looking for a miracle, just a good flying job to go back to. With all the retirements coming there is no reason this can't work out in everyone's favor; with that being said, I hope it does.

 

[Crzipilot]

Agreed..

 

[Guppiedriver]

I would expect that both MEC's will fight for fair integration. However, when it comes to the failing airline argument I think we need to look at the big picture. Here are a some comments from AWA's Parker just a couple of days ago.



"Both companies need this merger equally. It is important to the survival of both companies. Without it, the future is bleak for both companies. <<<



Parker said that without the merger, Uair would not be around for very long, and AWA would be in bankruptcy (Parker used that exact word: bankruptcy) in six to nine months.



>>> He will not play one employee group against another. It would be counterproductive. He doesn't think in those terms. <<<



Parker made this comment during the Q&A. This was parker’s response to xxxxx's question about “playing” one company against the other during the integration process."



I fully expect that my sixteen years at AAA will be recognized by my MEC and fought for voraciously

Statements like those from Parker, who wants this merger to happen, are predictable. Saying anything to the contrary, could jeopardize the merger.

What are your expectations regarding the seniority list integration?

 

[BeCareful!]

Tonto:

there's nothing in the LOA's that do away with any recall rights.

Crzipilot: Are you sure? I mean, I've read this several times right here on flightinfo.com! I think there's no recall at all for U pilots, because, after all, and, as I already stated, I've read it several times on flightinfo.com

Check your sources, man, because, after all, what they're sayin' on flightinfo.com is all different.

OK....enough sarcasm.

My sources....the LOA's themselves, say you're correct: nothing other than breaking a training freeze at MDA prevents recall. Now, if we can just get the uninformed to quiet down a bit, we can get on with a reasonable integration.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Oooookaaayyyy........define "reasonable"



PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

If I may be so bold as to state the obvious: everyone has a different opinion of what's reasonable and it's usually self-serving. That's why I for one won't give my ideas.

As I've stated before I believe ALPA Merger policy is a fair process and I'll accept the results come what may.

 

[Cactus73]

Parker is going to say anything right now to get this merger cleared with the ATSB and the Court. His claims of us being BK are a little much considering he was singing a different song up until the merger announcement. His numbers just don't add up.

AWA posted a $36 million profit in the 1st quarter. AWA also made a $32 million dollar ATSB loan payment. The second and third quarters are expected to be break even and could even show a profit if oil stays at $50+ due to our fuel hedges. This means our cash balances won't change very much.
AWA has to make another ATSB loan payment in October. This could reduce cash but only by about $32 million. The other large debt payment due has already been funded by the sale/leaseback of the training center and MX hangar.

Not to mention, Parker has stated numerous times that there are plently of people willing to give AWA cash before a BK filing was ever needed.

Parker needs this doom and gloom outlook for BOTH airlines in order to get the approvals needed for this deal.

On a side note:

We were on the van in Denver the other day and a USAirways furloughed pilot was on our crew van returning to the airport after a corporate job interview. She was a early 1990's hire. She told my Captain that she fully expected to return to work once the merger went through and at least hold a FO position. She said all her "friends" in her furloughed seniority range expected the same. I asked her if I should give up my job for her return, and she stated that is how the seniority system works.

This seniority integration is going to be a mess. Terms like reasonable, career expectations, fair, etc...will never be agreed on. We will be arguing these things as the whole airline sinks to the bottom and we are all out of jobs.

 

[PHXFLYR]

These USAir folks are not to be trusted. Ive seen current and past US MEC's sell their souls to the devil just to further their
own agendas at the expense of all others,including their own company. Remember the "Delta/United plus 1% " contract of just a few years ago? Those guys were cashing checks that company couldn't cover when times we're good, never mind today.I've never met a more beligerent,obnoxious group
of pilots in my life. What you experienced in the van with "Dolly Dimples" is a perfect example.

PHXFLYR

 

[Doug Parker]

I've never met a more beligerent,obnoxious group
of pilots in my life.


Especially the women pilots in that group







TWAdude - whose @ss are you trying to kiss ????????







.

 

[B-atch]

Take a deep breath..it only gets worse!!

SOOO much negativety.....You know.. the day that you chose to be an AIRLINE PILOT...No one said things would be easy and stable...welcome to TURMOIL LANE!!! Strap yourself in cause it's gonna get rough!!

 

[TWA Dude]

TWAdude - whose @ss are you trying to kiss ????????

You mean, why in the world do I not wish to be insulting and condescending to my fellow pilots? I don't think that question needs to be answered.

 

[BeCareful!]

AWA posted a $36 million profit in the 1st quarter. AWA also made a $32 million dollar ATSB loan payment.

Yeah, USAir made an ATSB payment, $250 million, I believe, a few quarters ago when it was trying to hide some money, too.

So, Cactus73, if USAir starts showing a profit, will it change what a fair integration looks like? Is that the determining factor?

Who cares what the accountants do, the fact is that pilots generate revenue, and if this merger goes through we are going to have to share that work.

You, "Doug," and PHXFLYR have a really twisted sense of the U pilot group. One van ride doesn't tell the whole story, nor does a revisionist historical perspective on the Parity+1% contract. Management WANTED that contract; it's what they said they needed. Now people look at it like it was a win for labor. Pure BS and revisionist history. That contract was consessionary, because at the time USAir was generating awesome revenue.

One of you asked what I thought was "reasonable" as far as integration. Well, I dunno, why don't you tell me? I was hired at US Airways in 1999, and I eventually had just over 600 pilots junior to me (10% of the list.) I was furloughed and out of the picture for two years, and now I fly CRJ's for a wholly owned and my paychecks say US Airways Group on them, just like they did in 1999. I get the sense that my six year history with US Air Group doesn't mean much to you boys in PHX, but because this is the Internet and because it's Tuesday and because I'm really tired I'll go ahead and let you take a shot at it. Where does a guy like me go on a combined list? Junior to a AWA pilot hired in March 2005? Junior to a poolie? Let me know what you think, and remeber: what goes around comes around.

 

[Publishers]

Read the Boyd Group report on the other thread and realize that just not being dead is winning.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Yeah, USAir made an ATSB payment, $250 million, I believe, a few quarters ago when it was trying to hide some money, too.

So, Cactus73, if USAir starts showing a profit, will it change what a fair integration looks like? Is that the determining factor?

Who cares what the accountants do, the fact is that pilots generate revenue, and if this merger goes through we are going to have to share that work.

You, "Doug," and PHXFLYR have a really twisted sense of the U pilot group. One van ride doesn't tell the whole story, nor does a revisionist historical perspective on the Parity+1% contract. Management WANTED that contract; it's what they said they needed. Now people look at it like it was a win for labor. Pure BS and revisionist history. That contract was consessionary, because at the time USAir was generating awesome revenue.

One of you asked what I thought was "reasonable" as far as integration. Well, I dunno, why don't you tell me? I was hired at US Airways in 1999, and I eventually had just over 600 pilots junior to me (10% of the list.) I was furloughed and out of the picture for two years, and now I fly CRJ's for a wholly owned and my paychecks say US Airways Group on them, just like they did in 1999. I get the sense that my six year history with US Air Group doesn't mean much to you boys in PHX, but because this is the Internet and because it's Tuesday and because I'm really tired I'll go ahead and let you take a shot at it. Where does a guy like me go on a combined list? Junior to a AWA pilot hired in March 2005? Junior to a poolie? Let me know what you think, and remeber: what goes around comes around.

Don't even start with the "USAIR Group" signed paycheck with me,my friend,because I was drawing USAir Group signed paychecks 1986 thru
1996 , And you know what? It didn't mean a hill of beans to anyone at mainline. he11,you weren't even on the property at that time. So let's not go there, OK? As to where you go on the combined senority list, the arbitrator unfourtunetly will make that call because of your groups DOH mindset. It is and always has been all about you guys and regretably nothing has changed that.


PHXFLYR

 

[tlax25]

Pilots do not generate revenue. The passengers generate revenue for you. All pilots supply is the service for that revenue. In reality, within the company, pilots are a drain on revenue. Yes, I know, the planes don't go anywhere, the passengers don't go anywhere, without pilots flying the planes (same can be said of the mechanics and ground handlers). Nevertheless, that does mean you are generating revenue for your company. The revenue, if any, has already been generated by the time your flight pushes back.

 

[Guppiedriver]

On a side note:

We were on the van in Denver the other day and a USAirways furloughed pilot was on our crew van returning to the airport after a corporate job interview. She was a early 1990's hire. She told my Captain that she fully expected to return to work once the merger went through and at least hold a FO position. She said all her "friends" in her furloughed seniority range expected the same. I asked her if I should give up my job for her return, and she stated that is how the seniority system works.

This seniority integration is going to be a mess. Terms like reasonable, career expectations, fair, etc...will never be agreed on. We will be arguing these things as the whole airline sinks to the bottom and we are all out of jobs.

She and her friends are going to be disappointed.

She can return to work as soon as there are new vacancies as a new hire with accrued longevity minus the furloughed years.

Did you confront that obnoxious b!tch?

 

[Cactus73]

Yeah, USAir made an ATSB payment, $250 million, I believe, a few quarters ago when it was trying to hide some money, too.

I don't think AWA was hiding money when they made this scheduled bi-yearly payment. I also don't think USAirways was trying to hide money. Believe it or not, not every money move is an accounting scandal. We owe money to Citibank at a high interest rate and we have to make 2 payments a year or we are in default. I'm not sure what the terms of the Airways ATSB loan require.

So, Cactus73, if USAir starts showing a profit, will it change what a fair integration looks like? Is that the determining factor?

I never made a statement of what I thought was fair. All I said is that we weren't going bankrupt. Airway's is bankrupt. I'm just stating the obvious.
And yes, career expectations are part of ALPA merger policy - so there - I said it - profits, growth, and financials do matter.

Who cares what the accountants do, the fact is that pilots generate revenue, and if this merger goes through we are going to have to share that work.

Pilots are an expense and are listed as such in the books. We don't generate anything. If the company could provide the transportation without our services they most definitely would.

You, "Doug," and PHXFLYR have a really twisted sense of the U pilot group. One van ride doesn't tell the whole story, nor does a revisionist historical perspective on the Parity+1% contract. Management WANTED that contract; it's what they said they needed. Now people look at it like it was a win for labor. Pure BS and revisionist history. That contract was consessionary, because at the time USAir was generating awesome revenue.

One of you asked what I thought was "reasonable" as far as integration. Well, I dunno, why don't you tell me? I was hired at US Airways in 1999, and I eventually had just over 600 pilots junior to me (10% of the list.) I was furloughed and out of the picture for two years, and now I fly CRJ's for a wholly owned and my paychecks say US Airways Group on them, just like they did in 1999. I get the sense that my six year history with US Air Group doesn't mean much to you boys in PHX, but because this is the Internet and because it's Tuesday and because I'm really tired I'll go ahead and let you take a shot at it. Where does a guy like me go on a combined list? Junior to a AWA pilot hired in March 2005? Junior to a poolie? Let me know what you think, and remeber: what goes around comes around.

Don't tell me I have a twisted view. I'm willing to accept the list the merger committee's or the arbitrator decide. I want to see this new airline succeed. I want to be able to work with Airway's guys and actually enjoy a four day with you.

Your six year's at the US Air Group is great. I'm glad you were able to find employment after your furlough. But the fact remains your name is on the US Airway's seniority list as a furloughed pilot. There is no history of bringing back furloughed guys just to displace active pilots to the street. So yes, my being on the active seniority list at AWA and flying the line means more than your six years at the US Air Group. If we don't merge, when is your expected recall date? If we don't merge, what is the probability I will be furloughed from AWA? Yes, I understand I can get furloughed tomorrow, but what is the probability based on our retirements and aircraft deliveries? Do furloughed American pilots working at Eagle, Delta guys at Comair or ASA - do they get special treatment because they also work for wholly owned subsidiaries? Or do the Continental pilots owe me something for the 5 years my paycheck had Continental Airlines on it and was signed by Gordon Bethune?

So where do you go on the seniority list? I'm not the arbitrator, but it is my opinion that furloughed pilots should be brought back on the bottom of the list as positions become available. I also think that if AWA needs pilots they should fill the slots with furloughed Airway's guys in seniority order instead of taking anyone from our pool or off the street.

As for the integration of the active/flying pilots - I won't even go there. I don't advocate a stable - I think ALPA merger policy should be followed to the tee and I will accept the results.

 

[Cactus73]

She and her friends are going to be disappointed.

She can return to work as soon as there are new vacancies as a new hire with accrued longevity minus the furloughed years.

Did you confront that obnoxious b!tch?

I totally agree with you.

We didn't confront her. It was on that early 4:35am shuttle and we were just too tired to start the converstation.

What took as by surprise was her "expectation" and her statements that she and her fellow furloughees were gearing up for the fight.

There should be no fight.

 

[Crzipilot]

These USAir folks are not to be trusted. Ive seen current and past US MEC's sell their souls to the devil just to further their
own agendas at the expense of all others,including their own company. Remember the "Delta/United plus 1% " contract of just a few years ago? Those guys were cashing checks that company couldn't cover when times we're good, never mind today.I've never met a more beligerent,obnoxious group
of pilots in my life. What you experienced in the van with "Dolly Dimples" is a perfect example.

PHXFLYR

Interesting, if you knew the history of the 1% contract, you'd know that basically it was a management idea, and one which there was alot of grief taken over this. Basically everyone was expecting a pay cut from this deal. (At the time, US I believe had some of the higher payscales, as they did through most of the 90's.) When the number crunching got done, and the scales came out......the MEC started patting themselves on the back for such a great job done, when just a week prior, everyone was doom and gloom. BUT the idea came down from management, as a way to cut payscales to get them more in line with Delta and United.

 

[321 busdriver]

I'm U, and as such I believe that seniorty integration will be difficult at best. Not to turn against my "peeps", but that girl is in for a rude awakening.QUOTE=Cactus73]I totally agree with you.

We didn't confront her. It was on that early 4:35am shuttle and we were just too tired to start the converstation.

What took as by surprise was her "expectation" and her statements that she and her fellow furloughees were gearing up for the fight.

There should be no fight.[/QUOTE]

 

[321 busdriver]

Hey PhxFlyer, how do I say this with as much tact as possible. Here goes. BITE ME! What an ignorant statement to make. If you have a beef with U management, well, get in line. If you have a beef with some U pilot(s), or something they said that may have offended you, so be it. But to say that as a group that we are beligerent and obnoxious couldn't be farther from the truth. Try to refrain from making such a$$inine statements in the future.

These USAir folks are not to be trusted. Ive seen current and past US MEC's sell their souls to the devil just to further their
own agendas at the expense of all others,including their own company. Remember the "Delta/United plus 1% " contract of just a few years ago? Those guys were cashing checks that company couldn't cover when times we're good, never mind today.I've never met a more beligerent,obnoxious group
of pilots in my life. What you experienced in the van with "Dolly Dimples" is a perfect example.

PHXFLYR

 

[Crzipilot]

So where do you go on the seniority list? I'm not the arbitrator, but it is my opinion that furloughed pilots should be brought back on the bottom of the list as positions become available. I also think that if AWA needs pilots they should fill the slots with furloughed Airway's guys in seniority order instead of taking anyone from our pool or off the street.


Interesting concept here. Though talk of career expectations, Yes I'm furloughed at present time, BUT, as Airways has shown, it continues to limp along and survive, even though it's been rumored it's going Chp 7 for the past 5 yrs, or longer. With that said, expected recall date, with present fleet, prob. less than 5 years, more like 2 or less. Beyond that, I'm expected to spend last 10 yrs left seat of a widebody, retireing in the top 10 of the seniority list. With that being said, I should be brought back behind someone hired at AWA 3 months ago? Hmmmmm.......try again. Maybe take that concept, and as positions become open, the furloughees are brought back, with where they would be slotted with their seniority. Retains some sembelance of seniority and doesn't put any AWA people on the street.

 

[Cactus73]

So where do you go on the seniority list? I'm not the arbitrator, but it is my opinion that furloughed pilots should be brought back on the bottom of the list as positions become available. I also think that if AWA needs pilots they should fill the slots with furloughed Airway's guys in seniority order instead of taking anyone from our pool or off the street.


Interesting concept here. Though talk of career expectations, Yes I'm furloughed at present time, BUT, as Airways has shown, it continues to limp along and survive, even though it's been rumored it's going Chp 7 for the past 5 yrs, or longer. With that said, expected recall date, with present fleet, prob. less than 5 years, more like 2 or less. Beyond that, I'm expected to spend last 10 yrs left seat of a widebody, retireing in the top 10 of the seniority list. With that being said, I should be brought back behind someone hired at AWA 3 months ago? Hmmmmm.......try again. Maybe take that concept, and as positions become open, the furloughees are brought back, with where they would be slotted with their seniority. Retains some sembelance of seniority and doesn't put any AWA people on the street.

Crizpilot,

I think the problem here is that furloughed pilots are generally considered to have zero career expectations. I think that the situation you are in sucks. You obviously put in time at Airway's and got furloughed do to your managements poor performance over the last ten years. They have been so busy shopping the airline and attacking labor, they have let the entire airline get run over by LCC's and even some of the legacies. I'm no expert and I even question the statements of those that claim they are, but most agree that Airway's is dangerously close to liquidation. This isn't some accounting game or hiding money scheme. Airway's has been very fortunate in that GE and other creditors have been willing to lend money to the airline in hopes that it could somehow survive. Minus a merger deal or asset sale, GE and others were going to pull the plug on the airline. As to how much longer Airway's has/had, who knows? The economy could turn tomorrow and everyone could be making money again.

As for returning from furlough and pushing down guys like me from my career expectations, doesn't sound fair either. It is also quite unlikely that Parker is going to agree to a list whereby every time a high cost pilot retires another one comes on to take his place.

What do you do with all the USAir furloughed guys that currently work at AWA? Do they get to jump seniority when their recall off the USAir list comes?

I'm not going to argue this with you because obviously we have different perspectives. If I were in your shoes I would probably feel the same as you do. I do suggest that you read LOA 93. I've read it a few times and to be quite honest I don't understand much in it - I think you have to be a lawyer. It does seem to give away much of your bargaining power as fuloughees in the event Airway's enters into a merger while in bankruptcy.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well now, interesting the bringing up of LOA 93...and in reality, it is a fairly easy read. The term seat puts most everything out there in plain language. And if you had read it a few times, you would prob. understand that 99% of what's in there is changes to the Mainline contract and terms within it. There's nothing in there regarding recall rights or rights of furloughees etc, except for the small section on loosing your recall rights if you resign from MDA within 12months of training etc etc.

I agree there is not an argument to be had, As your career expectations are what they are, and mine are mine. Narrow body vs. Wide body, trickle of retirements, vs massive retirements. Who knows where any of it would go. Just as everyone is giving the arguement that Parker is saying that AWA is hurting financially to get the deal done, hmmmmm......couldn't US be showing numbers and such to show it close to liquidation to get the deal done. I think I remember specifically a quote from a past CEO, that if the merger wasn't completed US would definately liquidate, it was a goner, goodbye. Well that quote was ohhhhhhhh 4-5 years ago. It's still here. yes hurting, but there isn't a pilot out there that can tell what true shape US is in or the others, who knows what a year from now will be.
I definately don't have the answer as to how to handle the lower part of the lists, and definately don't know how to handle the upper parts. Take two reps from each side (upper seniority, lower seniority) Lock them in a room....no tv, no food, no water, no women, no beer and tell them they can come out when they have a combined list. Prob. the easiest and cheapest way to go.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Well now, interesting the bringing up of LOA 93...and in reality, it is a fairly easy read. The term seat puts most everything out there in plain language. And if you had read it a few times, you would prob. understand that 99% of what's in there is changes to the Mainline contract and terms within it. There's nothing in there regarding recall rights or rights of furloughees etc, except for the small section on loosing your recall rights if you resign from MDA within 12months of training etc etc.

I agree there is not an argument to be had, As your career expectations are what they are, and mine are mine. Narrow body vs. Wide body, trickle of retirements, vs massive retirements. Who knows where any of it would go. Just as everyone is giving the arguement that Parker is saying that AWA is hurting financially to get the deal done, hmmmmm......couldn't US be showing numbers and such to show it close to liquidation to get the deal done. I think I remember specifically a quote from a past CEO, that if the merger wasn't completed US would definately liquidate, it was a goner, goodbye. Well that quote was ohhhhhhhh 4-5 years ago. It's still here. yes hurting, but there isn't a pilot out there that can tell what true shape US is in or the others, who knows what a year from now will be.
I definately don't have the answer as to how to handle the lower part of the lists, and definately don't know how to handle the upper parts. Take two reps from each side (upper seniority, lower seniority) Lock them in a room....no tv, no food, no water, no women, no beer and tell them they can come out when they have a combined list. Prob. the easiest and cheapest way to go.

You may want to go back and re read that LOA again!!!! Here are a few hints for you BANKRUPT!! SECTIONS 1C D AND F of your contract DON'T Apply!! Check it out and report back.

WD.