Awa Merger

[nitrogen]

Simple

The combining of the two carriers is a merger. It should be a buyout. Thats the only thing that could save AWA career expectations. Under a merger agreement AWA loses major leverage. Look at past mergers among ALPA carriers. If its a merger and you're both ALPA, DOH might not be the end of the tale, but close. It will run along those lines. Which is absurd for a non bankrupt carrier when merging with a bankrupt one. But it won't matter. It's all about what you each bring to the table.. On that basis its about even, maybe even slanted in US AW favor. They have the east coast routes. Reality is lost.

BTW, what is the post merger name of this carrier gonna be??

Oh, thats right US Airways.

Yeah, you'll do well.

LOL.

1. I'm not talking about the people in the pool. They are probably screwed.

2. Give me facts that the pilot recruiter was fired. Her letter just states that she's leaving for an outside job. AWA doesn't exactly pay their management people competitive wages.

3. Tell me about the ALPA "policy of seniority integration." I've read Section 45 of the ALPA administration manual many times and it doesn't list DOH anywhere in it (which I am assuming by "AWA pilots are screwed on that" is what you mean).

4. How did the bankrupt carrier pull this "screw job off." It hasn't been approved and the Union's haven't even begun to talk.

 

[nitrogen]

Yeah, you're right

In fact, Tiffany was actually informed her position wouldnt need to exist anymore so she "opted for greener pastures". What the heck is the difference how you posture it. The bottom line is that after this AWA will never have a need for a pilot recruiter ever again. Trust me.

Nitrogen, you need to lay off the nitrous man.

I know Tiffany personally, and this had nothing to do with the merger. Period. She was not fired, you need to keep your mouth shut about things you know absolutely nothing about.

ALPA policy of seniority integration. DOH is not part of ALPA's merger policy. That was removed.

The status of furloughed USair guys will be determined at the negotiating table or through arbitration.


Peace....

 

[Cactus73]

For the LAST TIME, the NAME OF THE AIRLINE makes no difference!

According to court documents, USAirway's will be brought into America West Holdings under the Barbell name. Current AWA management will control the 13 member board with a majority.

Yes, this is a merger, but you predicting what an arbitrator will find is crazy.

BTW, AWA brings a profitable and growing airline to the table. Yes, growing. Even with the ten airplanes leaving, we are getting 13 new Airbus by the end of 06.

I suggest you read some of the court documents to better understand this deal. I have been reading them and they are quite revealing in the plan behind this deal.

 

[Captain Overs]

I'm actually surprised that the US Airways name is going to survive. America West has not had the best history with name recognition. Sit around and hear people talk at the airport and you hear "America Worst". But keeping US Airways? I think they should have opted for a new name altogether. But what do I know?

 

[PositiveRate]

Nitrogen is a flamer. Stop biting...it's not worth it.

 

[nitrogen]

What?

I don't need to predict what an arbitrator will find. I know the setup going in. It's a merger. All mergers are based upon past mergers under ALPA rules. As will this one. US AW will be given at least equal footing in what value they bring to the table. Based on that if you look at all the past ALPA mergers and how they were integrated it doesnt take a crystal ball to know how this one will turn out.

Why do you think this will go to an arbitrator? I think that is highly unlikely. The one thing that could derail this the most is a drawn out squabble between the unions that ends up having to go to arbitration. No, this thing will be settled by the union leadership. And it won't be pretty for AWA. US AW just has too many long suffering employees to take a back seat to AWA in a merger. They're gonna get credit for their longevity at US AW. Mark my words. The writing is already on the wall.

BTW one thing I think you will get is no recalled US AW pilots supplanting AWA jobs. But.......I bet many of them get seniority preference shhould they ever get recalled. You heard it here first.

For the LAST TIME, the NAME OF THE AIRLINE makes no difference!

According to court documents, USAirway's will be brought into America West Holdings under the Barbell name. Current AWA management will control the 13 member board with a majority.

Yes, this is a merger, but you predicting what an arbitrator will find is crazy.

BTW, AWA brings a profitable and growing airline to the table. Yes, growing. Even with the ten airplanes leaving, we are getting 13 new Airbus by the end of 06.

I suggest you read some of the court documents to better understand this deal. I have been reading them and they are quite revealing in the plan behind this deal.

 

[nitrogen]

Not

I'm not a flamer. In time you will se how accurate I really am.

Nitrogen is a flamer. Stop biting...it's not worth it.

 

[321 busdriver]

I do believe that you're on nitrogen. You have no idea what's going to happen, just like the rest of us. I realize that you're upset because of the unknown, but rather than spouting off like some expert, which you are not, why not wait and see what happens. I think there will be some healthy fences to protect " career expectations", there are no recall rights ( which I think is wrong, but which our MEC signed off on, effectively screwing the guys on the street), and we have a tremendous amount of retirements happening every year for the next ten or so. So , take another hit of nitro, and try to relax for a while.

Well lets see. The combined carrier will have about 60 fewer aircraft than the two separately have now. Thats an initial estimate. Add the fact that a combining of the overlap will shrink it even more and its a virtual guarantee that some current employess are going to lose their jobs. It isn't speculation it's simple math. The most hilarious part is the gross disparagy that exists between the bottom US AW guy and the bottom AWA guy. The only way AWA pilots wouldnt get screwed is if this was a buyout. That would preserve their career expectations. In a merger they get creamed. Period. AWA pilots are toast.

 

[exagony]

321 busdriver,

If AWA needs pilots at the end of the year and USAir is getting ready to furlough, then some deal needs to be worked out to bring the USAir guys over to the AWA side instead of the street. They can be stapled for the time being, and their seniority will be determined at a later date during the actual merger discussions/arbitration. But to bring guys on that never had a seniority number when the end result is going to be a combined airline, is just grossly unfair.


What would be even more unfair is that U furloughed pilots would end up having more senority at AWA then the poolies would should the merger fail to go thru. Just think, U pilots who currently have no rights to a senority # at AWA, never interviewed/never hired, would get jobs that others pilots have pursued in the traditional manner ie applications and interviews. Now 6 months from now and the merger falls apart what recourse would the poolies have? None most likely. The poolies should be brought onto the property first (prior to the actual merger) and then the furloughed pilots. Otherwise the U pilots who have never even tried to get onto AWA will get jobs that other pilots went through all the hoops required. Now once the merger is "official and completed" I agree that U furloughees should have first shot at any openings.

 

[321 busdriver]

I really could care less what they call the new airline. Paint the planes yellow, combine the names, it really doesn't matter to anyone at U. Let's face it. Niether airline has that much to brag about when it comes to name recognition. With one VERY important difference. We run a first class operation to Europe, the Carribbean, and Central America, which is where the money is. To have a combined national low cost domestic system coupled with a strong international route system might just be a very good thing. Being a former Piedmont guy, I have no great loyalty to the USAirways name , so to speak, but there are a ton of great guys here and the name does carry alot of weight overseas. And to a person, not one of us goes around beating our chest and drooling about the possibilty of screwing some AWA guy out of his seniorty. In fact, on the line , it's not really being talked about that much. We're all to old to get that excited I guess. Best of luck to all.

I'm actually surprised that the US Airways name is going to survive. America West has not had the best history with name recognition. Sit around and hear people talk at the airport and you hear "America Worst". But keeping US Airways? I think they should have opted for a new name altogether. But what do I know?

 

[TWA Dude]

The one thing that could derail this the most is a drawn out squabble between the unions that ends up having to go to arbitration.

That's that one thing you've written that has any merit. I don't know what ax you have to grind but it seems nobody from either side trusts your opinion. (I'm the one who should have axes to grind!) Are you a Lowecur alter-ego?

 

[321 busdriver]

Please see an earlier post reguarding this. So you are saying that a guy that DID pay ALPA dues for 15 years or so, that DID have a senority # , should go behind some poolie that had neither? You're high!

321 busdriver,

If AWA needs pilots at the end of the year and USAir is getting ready to furlough, then some deal needs to be worked out to bring the USAir guys over to the AWA side instead of the street. They can be stapled for the time being, and their seniority will be determined at a later date during the actual merger discussions/arbitration. But to bring guys on that never had a seniority number when the end result is going to be a combined airline, is just grossly unfair.


What would be even more unfair is that U furloughed pilots would end up having more senority at AWA then the poolies would should the merger fail to go thru. Just think, U pilots who currently have no rights to a senority # at AWA, never interviewed/never hired, would get jobs that others pilots have pursued in the traditional manner ie aplications and interviews. Now 6 months from now and the merger falls apart what recourse would the poolies have? None most likely. The poolies should be brought onto the property first (prior to the actual merger) and then the furloughed pilots. Otherwise the U pilots who have never even tried to get onto AWA will get jobs that other pilots went through all the hoops required. Now once the merger is "official and completed" I agree that U furloughees should have first shot at any openings.

 

[exagony]

Please see an earlier post reguarding this. So you are saying that a guy that DID pay ALPA dues for 15 years or so, that DID have a senority # , should go behind some poolie that had neither? You're high!

So you are assuming that these pilots have never been ALPA members? Maybe they are furloughed pilots from AA, United, ACA, or any number of other ALPA or other union carriers. Maybe they are currently at another airline and AWA is a better fit for them financially, career wise or location wise then they are right now. So YES I do think that until the merger is complete that a poolie should have more priority then a furloughed U pilot who hasn't jumped through all the proper hoops to get hired onto AWA. You are just showing the prima donna attitude that the employees of U are famous for. U and AWA are NOT the same company yet, until then U employees have less of a right to a job at AWA then a poolie like it or not. If U employees wanted a AWA job, you should have sent in an application. Pass the bong because you obviously have some good s#*t!

 

[willard]

All pilots currently employed with both companies will all retain there jobs minus normal attrition. The issue here is the integration of recalled US pilots.

1. Recall will not be for a long, long time if ever
2. If it happens, AW guys at the bottom will be there FOREVER...$UCKS!

 

[TWA Dude]

Until the deal is closed we are two separate companies with separate hiring and/or furloughing needs. It doesn't look likely to happen but if AWA should hire before that point it's appropriate for AWA to hire from the pool. After all, the deal could still fall through. After the closing (anticipated this Fall) Single-Carrier status is inevitable so all hiring should be furloughees even though the seniority lists will not have been integrated yet. At that point of course the poolies are out of luck. Not fair but it's reality.

See, this can be discussed without resorting to insults.

 

[USMC319]

Exagony,

With all due respect, a "poolie" doesn't count for squat. It simply means that you have made it to the point in the hiring proccess, that if or when another class is scheduled, you will be invited to finish the selection proccess and then probably be assigned a seniority number. At many airlines they don't even do a background check on you until you are invited to class. I know of a few guys that were disqualified and sent home after finishing their paperwork during Initial Training.

That said, I think that the pilots at US should be treated with a little more respect on here. Most of them were flying at US Air before many of the AWA guys decided to take their first Discovery Flight in a Cessna 152.

 

[xanderman]

All pilots currently employed with both companies will all retain there jobs minus normal attrition. The issue here is the integration of recalled US pilots.

1. Recall will not be for a long, long time if ever
2. If it happens, AW guys at the bottom will be there FOREVER...$UCKS!

It is unfortunate, BUT, and listen carefully on this one. THEY HAVE NO RECALL RIGHTS IF THIS DEAL GOES THROUGH!!!! PERIOD!!!! (LOA 93). Now having said that I do think it would be fair to see that they are recalled before any new hire comes in off the street. I know it sucks for them but that issue should be directed to the U MEC. Obviously they wanted to be in a position to shop themselve around to other carriers. Maybe I'm wrong but what does it cost the company here and now to have recall rights? The only time it would cost them something is during recall (training) or in the event they wanted to be bought or merged. Not all airlines would want to deal with the mess of integrating (cost) the U furloughed. So I suppose the U MEC was pressed to let that clause slip away and now we are in the situation we are in.

Andy

 

[nitrogen]

History fixing to repeat itself

How stupid can you possibly be? Can't you see that past history WILL dictate future performance. This isnt a random occurrence genius. Theres plenty of precedent that exists that tells you exactly what will happen in this merger. Your unwillingness to accept it will be your downfall.

I'll put it even more plainly. If I worked for AWA as a pilot I would do EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO STOP THIS. Management is praying you don't see how bad a deal this is for you until its too late. Keep drinking their koolaid.

For you ignorance truly is bliss. I hope there are at least some pilots at AWA a lot more astute than you or youre really screwed.

The only thing that amazes me more is your level of denial.

Good luck with that. And in the mean time try to stop this merger. Maybe when you've been pulling gear for a few years for the US AW guys in the left seat you'll wise up.

I do believe that you're on nitrogen. You have no idea what's going to happen, just like the rest of us. (what a maroon)



I realize that you're upset because of the unknown (what a friggin lemming)


, but rather than spouting off like some expert, which you are not, why not wait and see what happens.(because it will be too late for you by then Einstein)


I think there will be some healthy fences to protect " career expectations", there are no recall rights ( which I think is wrong, but which our MEC signed off on, effectively screwing the guys on the street), and we have a tremendous amount of retirements happening every year for the next ten or so. So , take another hit of nitro, and try to relax for a while.
(youre going down and youre doing it to yourselves. how sad)

 

[nitrogen]

TWA dude

Thanks for posting more mindless dribble. Didn't we get rid of you PITA's long ago? I mean the ones that haven't been furloughed have mostly retired I thought. If memory serves we had the wisdom to furlough you personally, so we got that right at least. Please keep your future oral farts to yourself, or at least swallow them. Amazing how I cant fully get rid of those TWA jokers no matter where I go.

That's that one thing you've written that has any merit. I don't know what ax you have to grind but it seems nobody from either side trusts your opinion. (I'm the one who should have axes to grind!) Are you a Lowecur alter-ego?

 

[TheDonger]

Being a former Piedmont guy, I have no great loyalty to the USAirways name ,.

(Banging my head against the wall...)
(Banging my head against the wall...)
I beg everyone if this merger goes through, concetrate on the present and the future, not the past. IMHO, too many stubborn people looking back at the past is what held USAir/US Airways from great success. FWIW, I was not original USAir no need to tell you where I came from before it just doesn't matter anymore.

 

[vtwin]

It is unfortunate, BUT, and listen carefully on this one. THEY HAVE NO RECALL RIGHTS IF THIS DEAL GOES THROUGH!!!! PERIOD!!!! (LOA 93). Now having said that I do think it would be fair to see that they are recalled before any new hire comes in off the street. I know it sucks for them but that issue should be directed to the U MEC. Obviously they wanted to be in a position to shop themselve around to other carriers. Maybe I'm wrong but what does it cost the company here and now to have recall rights? The only time it would cost them something is during recall (training) or in the event they wanted to be bought or merged. Not all airlines would want to deal with the mess of integrating (cost) the U furloughed. So I suppose the U MEC was pressed to let that clause slip away and now we are in the situation we are in.

Andy

Could you or someone maybe 321 busdriver, tell me where in the 30+ pages of LOA 93 Transformation Plan it addresses "NO RECALL RIGHTS" since you are so emphatic about this?

 

[Doug Parker]

Could you or someone maybe 321 busdriver, tell me where in the 30+ pages of LOA 93 Transformation Plan it addresses "NO RECALL RIGHTS" since you are so emphatic about this?

Page 22 - paragraph 12





no wait - was that page 12, paragraph 22 ????

 

[321 busdriver]

Hardly worth responding to, but I'll try. I'm not assuming anything with these pilots. If they are furloughed from AA, United, ACA, or any number of other ALPA carriers, then I would say the same thing. They should have rights at whatever company they would be merging with before hiring from some pool. I certainly don't consider myself some prima donna that we are apparently famous for. I think that most of the guys that I have corresponded with at AWA would back me up on that score. And if anyone has gone through some hoops, it would be those 15 year guys that have suffered tremendously. Bottom line for me, if you have a senority number, then you are intitled to some protection. If not you don't.

Please see an earlier post reguarding this. So you are saying that a guy that DID pay ALPA dues for 15 years or so, that DID have a senority # , should go behind some poolie that had neither? You're high!

So you are assuming that these pilots have never been ALPA members? Maybe they are furloughed pilots from AA, United, ACA, or any number of other ALPA or other union carriers. Maybe they are currently at another airline and AWA is a better fit for them financially, career wise or location wise then they are right now. So YES I do think that until the merger is complete that a poolie should have more priority then a furloughed U pilot who hasn't jumped through all the proper hoops to get hired onto AWA. You are just showing the prima donna attitude that the employees of U are famous for. U and AWA are NOT the same company yet, until then U employees have less of a right to a job at AWA then a poolie like it or not. If U employees wanted a AWA job, you should have sent in an application. Pass the bong because you obviously have some good s#*t!

 

[Guppiedriver]

Confirmed, Nitrogen is a flamer!!!!!

I'm not a flamer. In time you will se how accurate I really am.

This guy is a flamer. Ignor him and he will go away. A quick look at his post history will confirm he is nothing more than a flamer.

 

[TWA Dude]

Didn't we get rid of you PITA's long ago?

The only PITA I'm familiar with is what my felafel sandwich comes wrapped in. Add hummus, tehina, and harif (hot spices) and you have nature's most perfect food. My personal preference is to go easy on the salad items. How do you like yours?

 

[exagony]

[QUOTE=321 busdriver]Hardly worth responding to, but I'll try. I'm not assuming anything with these pilots. If they are furloughed from AA, United, ACA, or any number of other ALPA carriers, then I would say the same thing. They should have rights at whatever company they would be merging with before hiring from some pool. I certainly don't consider myself some prima donna that we are apparently famous for. I think that most of the guys that I have corresponded with at AWA would back me up on that score. And if anyone has gone through some hoops, it would be those 15 year guys that have suffered tremendously. Bottom line for me, if you have a senority number, then you are intitled to some protection. If not you don't.
If you have a senority # at U you are not entitled to a senority # at AWA until the merger is final. U is NOT a part of AWA yet and therefore a seperate company. No one made the 15 year U employee stick around after being furloughed by U (you put # in) times. Why shouldn't a AA pilot be entitled to protection at AWA as you seem to believe U pilots should enjoy. U is not AWA any more thanAA, ACA is or United is. As I stated before ,until the merger is finalized U pilots are and should be below poolies. It just sounds like th U pilots salivating over another company's jobs just like when the United merger was attempted. We all know how that turned out. After the merger (if it even occurs)then I agree with you that U furloughees should be brought on before poolies. I am sorry that the 15 year guys made a piss poor decision to work for U but like all of us you never know if you've made the right career decisions until after you retire.

 

[Cactus73]

Although the merger closing date is not until September or October of this year, it will be almost a sure thing if the BK court approves the plan and rejects competitive offers.

Once the 30-45 day bidding process is over, which will be in the next month or two, we will know the outcome. The closing date is then just an artificial date set by the banks and money people to transfer control of the company - much like a house closing.

The biding process in BK court is much like the 10 day house inspection period when you sell your home. If nothing comes up and both agree on the deal, then the time to the closing date is when the money is actually secured and the paperwork finalized.

To screw USAir guys and put them on the street and still hire at AWA once the deal is approved by the court and there are no other bidders, is just WRONG!

 

[spitfire1500]

The merger plans to cut 59 airplanes. Has anyone heard about pilot furloughs? I've heard through the grapevine they are going to try and keep all pilots on property, even though that seems hard to believe. Anyone?

I think retirement attrition at USAirways will keep pilots on the property. The avg. pilot age at Airways is like 55 Years old....they furloghed back to a 1988 hire date.

 

[Saabslime]

Once the 30-45 day bidding process is over, which will be in the next month or two, we will know the outcome.

NOT true! All that means is there are no other competing restructuring offers for AAA. The deal will then have to get the blessing of the ATSB, shareholders, government, creditors, etc. which will probably take about 6 months if what I've read is accurate. All this integration bickering could still end up just being wasted breath.

On the upside (for me personally) it sounds like ALPA national won't be supporting a change to the age 60 rule since a majority of the voting membership want status quo. (Didn't national say this vote would be the big determining factor on which way to go?) So if this merger goes through, the high attrition on the AAA side of the "fence" should ease a lot of integration fears as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Cactus73]

NOT true! All that means is there are no other competing restructuring offers for AAA. The deal will then have to get the blessing of the ATSB, shareholders, government, creditors, etc. which will probably take about 6 months if what I've read is accurate. All this integration bickering could still end up just being wasted breath.

On the upside (for me personally) it sounds like ALPA national won't be supporting a change to the age 60 rule since a majority of the voting membership want status quo. (Didn't national say this vote would be the big determining factor on which way to go?) So if this merger goes through, the high attrition on the AAA side of the "fence" should ease a lot of integration fears as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure Parker/Lakefield have already held discussions with the ATSB and the government. They did this during the ATA deal. Parker has been in Washington quite a bit over the last month. He would not announce a merger without first consulting these people.
The largest USAirway's/AWA creditors are the ones putting up the money - not much objection there. The Gov't has already indicated that there are no anti-trust issues in the deal.
As for the shareholders - TPG is the largest shareholder at 57% - they have signed off on the deal. The voice of the class B stockholders is rather meaningless. TPG has also agreed to convert their "veto" shares to class B once the deal is closed.

Again, I suggest people read the court documents.

I stand by my word that once the bidding process is over and approved by the BK court, this is pretty much a done deal.