Atp Circ Apch Vmc Only

[Dumb Pilot]

ANA training is quite well known for being very difficult and in the case of the circling approach I have heard that it's hand flown with a +20'/-zero during the circle. This is a lot harder than it sounds and there are numerous "former ANA trainees" that will attest to it.

True, but they do give you a ton of sim sessions for you to fly to those standards and they also put a lot of emphasis on hand flown maneuvers, the relentless pursuit of the perfect hand flown visual pattern. Oh my lord I'm getting flashbacks

 

[Spooky 2]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

Well first of all many if not most 121 pilots have this restriction on their certificates so I'm not sure where your coming from on that one? I have never been able to decipher the reasoning between one person having the VMC restrition on their certificate and another one, from the same airline not having one other than the fact that one would assume that the cirlce was a part of the training module once and then changed to not being there.

As others have noted the circle is a hazardous maneuver, that if not flown perfectly will get you into a lot of trouble, hence most airlines have adopted the VMC concept. The side benefit is that they can use the sim time for more active issues like VNAV/RNAV/GPS approaches.

 

[CA1900]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program.

Uhhh... that's a crock.

I got my ATP and first type rating at a 121 air carrier, and have no circle-to-land restriction on any of my type ratings. The circle-to-land restriction only marks you as a pilot for an operation that was saving a buck by issuing restricted types.

Our 737 pilots (like all our pilots) are issued full unrestricted types. Does that make them amateurs?

BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous.

Maybe, maybe not. It's an arbitrary restriction issued to save an airline a few bucks in training; nothing more.

"Circling" can be anything from flying around the airport to an approach that's offset by 31 degrees or has a descent rate just outside the the TERPS envelope for a straight-in approach.

I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

Have you looked at an approach chart lately?

Just to pick a few at random, with their AGL MDAs and visibility mins:

MDW 31C (500/1)
BOS 4R and BOS 27 (621/1)
CLE 6R (509/1)

...and so on. That's not even close to any definition of VMC I'm familiar with.

 

[pilotyip]

mis read

Our 737 pilots (like all our pilots) are issued full-unrestricted types. Does that make them amateurs?

Have you looked at an approach chart lately?

Maybe, maybe not. It's an arbitrary restriction issued to save an airline a few bucks in training; nothing more.
..

Where did anyone say anything about amateurs? No it means they probably got their certificate before 1998.

In 1998 the Fed's came up with Vmc Circle to land restriction on the certificate if you were not training and checking on that maneuver. The circle to land is seldom done by 121 air carriers something that is not practiced on a routine basis tends to become a greater challenge. There are few airline, I believe Alaska being one that he Circle is a routine maneuver.

I did look at some charts I did not find one Cat D circle with less than 2 miles vis or 550' ceiling. I did find VOR A YIP Cat D 750' 2-1/2 miles. I find ONZ Cat D 900' 3 miles, and DET Cat D 790' 2/1/2 miles. I think those are close to VFR BTW I have restrcition on my DC-9 type Vmc circle to land only.

 

[BEECH-SLAPPED]

Originally Posted by ForgedBlade
Who gives a crap if it is on there?!?! Most of my Types have the limitation, but a couple don't - so what. When will you ever do a circling approach in an airliner? Why would you want to waste your money getting that "limitation" removed.

At Allegiant!

Uh, no. We have a 1000-3 limitation like almost everyone else. If you work for us, please refer to Ops Spec C075 and educate yourself.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The circle-to-land restriction only marks you as a pilot for an operation that was saving a buck by issuing restricted types.

Bingo

 

[AC560]

Not sure what you are implying

I was questioning your statement that a circling approach was not an IFR procedure.

if you cannot maintain visual conditions while circling, i.e., lose sight of the runway, you should execute a missed approach. At no time during the circling maneuver should you be IMC.

Maybe, even in category D you will generally have minimums that are less then VFR. ILS 9R at ORD gives you 2 miles, you need 3 miles to be VFR.

 

[Spooky 2]

I was questioning your statement that a circling approach was not an IFR procedure.



Maybe, even in category D you will generally have minimums that are less then VFR. ILS 9R at ORD gives you 2 miles, you need 3 miles to be VFR.

Your point is well taken and I see where you are coming from but the circling maneuver is still a VFR procedure and if it turns into an IMC issue you must excecute the appropraite MAP. Let me see if I can find a reference for my statement and thus see if we can agree on the final issue. As you may recall a typical cirling approach has langauge from the controller that asks you to report the airport in sight and then and only then he/she will clear you for circling maneuver. Prior to that time you had been cleared for instrument approach leading up to the circle.

More tomorrow...if I can find it!

 

[AC560]

if it turns into an IMC issue you must excecute the appropraite MAP. Let me see if I can find a reference for my statement and thus see if we can agree on the final issue.

I don't disagree with the lose site of the runway execute the missed approach portion of your statement. It definitely isn't a VFR procedure though and it can be done in IMC.

(C)If visual reference is lost while circling‐to‐land from an instrument approach, the missed approach specified for that particular procedure must be followed (unless an alternate missed approach procedure is specified by ATC). To become established on the prescribed missed approach course, the pilot should make an initial climbing turn toward the landing runway and continue the turn until established on the missed approach course. Inasmuch as the circling maneuver may be accomplished in more than one direction, different patterns will be required to become established on the prescribed missed approach course, depending on the aircraft position at the time visual reference is lost. Adherence to the procedure will help assure that an aircraft will remain laterally within the circling and missed approach obstruction clearance areas. Refer to paragraph h concerning vertical obstruction clearance when starting a missed approach at other than the MAP

 

[Spooky 2]

I don't disagree with the lose site of the runway execute the missed approach portion of your statement. It definitely isn't a VFR procedure though and it can be done in IMC.

Well you have me confused now. How can it be a visual procedure if you lose sight of the runway while circling. Take a look at JAROPS 1.435 (a) (1) which talks about the "visual phase of an instrument approach". Also might want to look at ICAO DOC 8168 Procedures for Air Navigation, PAN OPS Vol.1

I have to go out for the rest of the day so I'm not ignoring you, and I'll get back tomorrow. Thanks for this provoking conversation.