Atp Circ Apch Vmc Only

[Dumb Pilot]

ANA training is quite well known for being very difficult and in the case of the circling approach I have heard that it's hand flown with a +20'/-zero during the circle. This is a lot harder than it sounds and there are numerous "former ANA trainees" that will attest to it.

True, but they do give you a ton of sim sessions for you to fly to those standards and they also put a lot of emphasis on hand flown maneuvers, the relentless pursuit of the perfect hand flown visual pattern. Oh my lord I'm getting flashbacks

 

[Spooky 2]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program. Someone who earned his or her rating, as opposed to someone with enough money who can buy a rating without the airline restriction. BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous. I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

Well first of all many if not most 121 pilots have this restriction on their certificates so I'm not sure where your coming from on that one? I have never been able to decipher the reasoning between one person having the VMC restrition on their certificate and another one, from the same airline not having one other than the fact that one would assume that the cirlce was a part of the training module once and then changed to not being there.

As others have noted the circle is a hazardous maneuver, that if not flown perfectly will get you into a lot of trouble, hence most airlines have adopted the VMC concept. The side benefit is that they can use the sim time for more active issues like VNAV/RNAV/GPS approaches.

 

[CA1900]

The Vmc circle to land only marks you as a professional pilot. It marks you as someone who got your type rating upon competition of an air carrier-training program.

Uhhh... that's a crock.

I got my ATP and first type rating at a 121 air carrier, and have no circle-to-land restriction on any of my type ratings. The circle-to-land restriction only marks you as a pilot for an operation that was saving a buck by issuing restricted types.

Our 737 pilots (like all our pilots) are issued full unrestricted types. Does that make them amateurs?

BTW Circling under a four hundred foot ceiling in a big jet is dangerous.

Maybe, maybe not. It's an arbitrary restriction issued to save an airline a few bucks in training; nothing more.

"Circling" can be anything from flying around the airport to an approach that's offset by 31 degrees or has a descent rate just outside the the TERPS envelope for a straight-in approach.

I think you will also find that the Cat D or E mins are very close to Vmc

Have you looked at an approach chart lately?

Just to pick a few at random, with their AGL MDAs and visibility mins:

MDW 31C (500/1)
BOS 4R and BOS 27 (621/1)
CLE 6R (509/1)

...and so on. That's not even close to any definition of VMC I'm familiar with.

 

[pilotyip]

mis read

Our 737 pilots (like all our pilots) are issued full-unrestricted types. Does that make them amateurs?

Have you looked at an approach chart lately?

Maybe, maybe not. It's an arbitrary restriction issued to save an airline a few bucks in training; nothing more.
..

Where did anyone say anything about amateurs? No it means they probably got their certificate before 1998.

In 1998 the Fed's came up with Vmc Circle to land restriction on the certificate if you were not training and checking on that maneuver. The circle to land is seldom done by 121 air carriers something that is not practiced on a routine basis tends to become a greater challenge. There are few airline, I believe Alaska being one that he Circle is a routine maneuver.

I did look at some charts I did not find one Cat D circle with less than 2 miles vis or 550' ceiling. I did find VOR A YIP Cat D 750' 2-1/2 miles. I find ONZ Cat D 900' 3 miles, and DET Cat D 790' 2/1/2 miles. I think those are close to VFR BTW I have restrcition on my DC-9 type Vmc circle to land only.

 

[BEECH-SLAPPED]

Originally Posted by ForgedBlade
Who gives a crap if it is on there?!?! Most of my Types have the limitation, but a couple don't - so what. When will you ever do a circling approach in an airliner? Why would you want to waste your money getting that "limitation" removed.

At Allegiant!

Uh, no. We have a 1000-3 limitation like almost everyone else. If you work for us, please refer to Ops Spec C075 and educate yourself.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

The circle-to-land restriction only marks you as a pilot for an operation that was saving a buck by issuing restricted types.

Bingo

 

[AC560]

Not sure what you are implying

I was questioning your statement that a circling approach was not an IFR procedure.

if you cannot maintain visual conditions while circling, i.e., lose sight of the runway, you should execute a missed approach. At no time during the circling maneuver should you be IMC.

Maybe, even in category D you will generally have minimums that are less then VFR. ILS 9R at ORD gives you 2 miles, you need 3 miles to be VFR.

 

[Spooky 2]

I was questioning your statement that a circling approach was not an IFR procedure.



Maybe, even in category D you will generally have minimums that are less then VFR. ILS 9R at ORD gives you 2 miles, you need 3 miles to be VFR.

Your point is well taken and I see where you are coming from but the circling maneuver is still a VFR procedure and if it turns into an IMC issue you must excecute the appropraite MAP. Let me see if I can find a reference for my statement and thus see if we can agree on the final issue. As you may recall a typical cirling approach has langauge from the controller that asks you to report the airport in sight and then and only then he/she will clear you for circling maneuver. Prior to that time you had been cleared for instrument approach leading up to the circle.

More tomorrow...if I can find it!

 

[AC560]

if it turns into an IMC issue you must excecute the appropraite MAP. Let me see if I can find a reference for my statement and thus see if we can agree on the final issue.

I don't disagree with the lose site of the runway execute the missed approach portion of your statement. It definitely isn't a VFR procedure though and it can be done in IMC.

(C)If visual reference is lost while circling‐to‐land from an instrument approach, the missed approach specified for that particular procedure must be followed (unless an alternate missed approach procedure is specified by ATC). To become established on the prescribed missed approach course, the pilot should make an initial climbing turn toward the landing runway and continue the turn until established on the missed approach course. Inasmuch as the circling maneuver may be accomplished in more than one direction, different patterns will be required to become established on the prescribed missed approach course, depending on the aircraft position at the time visual reference is lost. Adherence to the procedure will help assure that an aircraft will remain laterally within the circling and missed approach obstruction clearance areas. Refer to paragraph h concerning vertical obstruction clearance when starting a missed approach at other than the MAP

 

[Spooky 2]

I don't disagree with the lose site of the runway execute the missed approach portion of your statement. It definitely isn't a VFR procedure though and it can be done in IMC.

Well you have me confused now. How can it be a visual procedure if you lose sight of the runway while circling. Take a look at JAROPS 1.435 (a) (1) which talks about the "visual phase of an instrument approach". Also might want to look at ICAO DOC 8168 Procedures for Air Navigation, PAN OPS Vol.1

I have to go out for the rest of the day so I'm not ignoring you, and I'll get back tomorrow. Thanks for this provoking conversation.

 

[AC560]

Well you have me confused now. How can it be a visual procedure if you lose sight of the runway while circling.

You need 3 miles to be VFR, you have 2 miles then ergo you are IFR. You are confusing visual references for conditions of flight. A contact approach is an IFR procedure with visual references as well, that doesn't make it a VFR procedure (at least not in the US).

 

[CA1900]

Where did anyone say anything about amateurs?

You said the circle-to-land restriction marked a pilot as a professional; the corollary would be that someone without that restriction is an amateur -- "someone with enough money who can buy a rating," in your words.

I'm telling you there are plenty of people, myself included, who "earned" unrestricted type ratings at air carriers.

No it means they probably got their certificate before 1998.

Uhhh... no. We didn't get our first 737 until 1999.

 

[qxdash8]

VFR does not mean visual flight - it means visual flight RULES. There are many IFR maneuvers that are conducted visualy that are still IFR not VFR.

The circling approach is a visual maneuver conducted on an IFR approach. It is not a VFR (visual flight rules) maneuver - and as stated previously is often conducted in weather that is less then that required for VFR operations

 

[Papa Woody]

Who gives a crap if it is on there?!?! Most of my Types have the limitation, but a couple don't - so what. When will you ever do a circling approach in an airliner? Why would you want to waste your money getting that "limitation" removed.

The chicks at the bar know that, when they see "CIRC APPCH -- VMC ONLY" on you license, that you are not a "real" pilot.

 

[Spooky 2]

You need 3 miles to be VFR, you have 2 miles then ergo you are IFR. You are confusing visual references for conditions of flight. A contact approach is an IFR procedure with visual references as well, that doesn't make it a VFR procedure (at least not in the US).[/quot

Sorry, I had to take one more peak before I left. Let me restate my position I should hve been more carefull in my first post. The circle to land maneuver is not allowed in IMC conditions period. It is a structured visual maneuver. You cannot leave the MDA unless you have the runway of intended landing in sight and are able to continue the landing within the stabilized approach criteria, which by the way is where most checkride busts occur. One mile, two miles or greater does not make any difference as your still doing a visual maneuver. Now if for some reason you don't believe that and think you can slip in and out of IMC or non-visual conditions set for your specific category aircraft, well then I suspect we will be reading about someday. Remember the TERPS only guarantee 300" terrain clearance on these approaches.


Tomorrow!

 

[Ralph Cramden]

A friend got his circle restriction removed at CAE in DEN. Involved a half day of GS and a shared sim session. Two guys, first half of a regular 4 hr sim block was training, then the examiner stepped in the box for the one each maneuver ride while they swapped seats. This was in the Airbus BTW.

I won't quote the price he told me as I don't know if it was a special deal, but shared with another guy it wasn't as much as some of the other posts here.

And yes, they have an approved short course for just this situation. He needed it for overseas work. Now the Asians are questioning his temporary certificate!

Most US airline earned type ratings will have this restriction for the cost savings reason and the wash out rate was too high before the rule change. There goes the conspiracy theory!

I've got 8 types and only have the restriction on the A320 one. In the Gulfstream (my last one) it was a FAA part 61 ride and you bet your posterior we circled! LOC 27 circle 18R in MEM. With the jepp plate on the nav display and the little green airplane flying around the chart it was the easiest circle I've ever done! Gotta love that planeview cockpit. I really miss it...

 

[pilotyip]

set theroy

You said the circle-to-land restriction marked a pilot as a professional; the corollary would be that someone without that restriction is an amateur -- "someone with enough money who can buy a rating," in your words.

I'm telling you there are plenty of people, myself included, who "earned" unrestricted type ratings at air carriers.

Uhhh... no. We didn't get our first 737 until 1999.

The collection of pilots with the Vmc restriction is most likely almost 100% professional pilots where the company paid for their type rating. If I were to sample from the Vmc only set I would find almost every sample from that set was a professional pilot at the time they got their type rating. This does not infer that only professional pilots are limited to the Vmc only set. If I had a set of all type rated pilots, a sample from that set would not have the same probability as the Vmc only set of picking a professional pilot where the airline paid for the type rating. You are reading too much into this. As far as the 1998 date, it was late 1998 that our POI made the restriction. He could be your POI made he change later. This is really an exciting topic

 

[AC560]

Now if for some reason you don't believe that and think you can slip in and out of IMC or non-visual conditions set for your specific category aircraft, well then I suspect we will be reading about someday.

I never said that read QXDASH8's post he summarizes it correctly. A circling approach is an IFR approach is all that I stated.

You cannot leave the MDA unless you have the runway of intended landing in sight and are able to continue the landing within the stabilized approach criteria

You can leave the MDA without having the runway in sight see 91.175.

 

[pilotyip]

Circle MAP

I never said that read QXDASH8's post he summarizes it correctly. A circling approach is an IFR approach is all that I stated.



You can leave the MDA without having the runway in sight see 91.175.

Once the circle commences, you must have the runway in sight the entire time on the approach or it is mandatory MAP.

 

[navigatro]

Once the circle commences, you must have the runway in sight the entire time on the approach or it is mandatory MAP.

Yip is right. You guys keep confusing VFR and VMC, and Vmc(a), and now I am confused!!!