ASA VP FLT OPs tries to scare the pilots

[NoR * CaL]

None of the ALPAites have answered my question, so I will state it again.

Why can't we put it up to a vote?

If you actually listened to your P2P reps, you might come to understand how the process works....

 

[FL990]

What a plesant surprise to open up flica and see this CRAP!!!!

Howin the HELL can he possibly say that we are not competative NOW when we have the highest profit margins in the industry!!!!

If we are uncompetative, then lower the price and profit margins will come down to industry averages.

I am tired of all this crap about how our costs are out of line with industry averages when our PROFIT MARGINS are out of line with industry averages. They want everything to be average but our profit margins, which they want to be way above average!!! WHY?? BECAUSE THEY GET PAID BONUSES OFF OF PROFIT MARGINS AND IF THOSE LOWER TO INDUSTRY AVERAGE, THERE PAY GOES DOWN!!!!!

I am sick of this!!! Take the 700's, 900's, who cares. I won't work for free. And when you take them, lets see if your argument holds true, cause if it does, we will quickly become the largest 50 seat operator in the US!!! NO MORE THREATS, TAKE'M ALL BUT I AM NOT WORKING FOR LESS!!!

 

[79%N1]

I care, because......
A. If they take the SLC 700's and dont replace them, my 5-6 year upgrade turns into a 8-10 year upgrade.
B. When the SLC 700's leave, I will be bumped back to the 50 seater.....thus giving me the same dam# paycut the company is proposing I take anyway!!!!

And all you Junior 700 Captains will take a much bigger paycut when you get displaced to the 50 seater.
And you Junior 50 Captains will take a much bigger paycut when you go back to the freakin right seat!!! Enjoy the whiz wheel and weight and balance forms. See ya on the walk around. When will you guys see, we are way above those we are competing with on these 700's. Why is it a bluff of JA to say they will take them away? Then everyone gets a big paycut!

 

[jehtplane]

Well, to be devils advocate......IF what Tutt says is true, ASA is going to fuc%ing suck a$$ to work at! Junior Captains will go back to FO, Senior FO's will NEVER upgrade, and Junior FO's will be furloughed! Don't forget, the ATR's will be gone next year, and 13 or more 700's and one base closure! Not what I signed up for, thats for sure. I'm not sure why we think they won't do this. Calling their bluff is walking on really thin ice! Why won't they give the 900's to Skywest??? THEY FLY THEM FOR 50 SEAT RATES!!!!!! I'm not saying we should, at ASA.....but, ALPA is definitely asking for too much! Read the open sections email. We need to prioritize. If keeping 700 pay is priority number 1, then lets drop rigs and a funded retirement. Lets drop the 50 seater increases a bit. If rigs is the #1 issue, then lets come down on 70 seat pay. I'm all about getting whats fair, and I aint no management kool-aid drinker, however, I just don't see us being almost 25% higher in pay on the 700 than industry average, which is about what ALPA is asking for, and keeping those planes. If you think we will, you don't understand todays Regional Lift Provider environment! Who decided this? I was never 'polled' on what I think 700 pay should be. Lets get back in there, and compromise and come to an agreement so we dont go the way of ACA/Indy Air.

Quit being a *************************

 

[sweptback]

I care, because......
A. If they take the SLC 700's and dont replace them, my 5-6 year upgrade turns into a 8-10 year upgrade.
B. When the SLC 700's leave, I will be bumped back to the 50 seater.....thus giving me the same dam# paycut the company is proposing I take anyway!!!!

And all you Junior 700 Captains will take a much bigger paycut when you get displaced to the 50 seater.
And you Junior 50 Captains will take a much bigger paycut when you go back to the freakin right seat!!! Enjoy the whiz wheel and weight and balance forms. See ya on the walk around. When will you guys see, we are way above those we are competing with on these 700's. Why is it a bluff of JA to say they will take them away? Then everyone gets a big paycut!

Go ahead, sell out your fellow pilots so you can get your precious upgrade.

 

[AV8700]

I care, because......
A. If they take the SLC 700's and dont replace them, my 5-6 year upgrade turns into a 8-10 year upgrade.
B. When the SLC 700's leave, I will be bumped back to the 50 seater.....thus giving me the same dam# paycut the company is proposing I take anyway!!!!

And all you Junior 700 Captains will take a much bigger paycut when you get displaced to the 50 seater.
And you Junior 50 Captains will take a much bigger paycut when you go back to the freakin right seat!!! Enjoy the whiz wheel and weight and balance forms. See ya on the walk around. When will you guys see, we are way above those we are competing with on these 700's. Why is it a bluff of JA to say they will take them away? Then everyone gets a big paycut!

They will take the SLC700's and the 900's were probably never coming here anyway. I don't think it has much to do with our costs, we are competetive. It has a lot to do with Skywests costs. You have people on these boards posting upper 40's second year pay. Jerry said before in his little crew room chat that Skywest was very expensive for the 50. Add more aircraft with more seats, lower the cost. More upgrades, less chance of ALPA on the property. Hasn't Skywest been advertising open pilot interviews?

 

[atlcrjdriver]

It's about picking your battles. You may win the fight and get your pay increases on the CR7, but JA will win the war in the end. You have a higher rate with no a/c to fly when he shifts CR7 flying to SKW. This is not the last contract negotiation we will endure. At the end of five years we start all over again and if industry will support it a bump in pay will occur.

Pick your battles and get it done...

 

[SuperKooter]

Go ahead, sell out your fellow pilots so you can get your precious upgrade.

and sell out your fellow pilots who will be out of a job with your "Burn this motha down" crap.

 

[sweptback]

and sell out your fellow pilots who will be out of a job with your "Burn this motha down" crap.

Tell me, what airline has shut down as a direct result of pilot costs?

 

[FL990]

I care, because......
A. If they take the SLC 700's and dont replace them, my 5-6 year upgrade turns into a 8-10 year upgrade.
B. When the SLC 700's leave, I will be bumped back to the 50 seater.....thus giving me the same dam# paycut the company is proposing I take anyway!!!!

And all you Junior 700 Captains will take a much bigger paycut when you get displaced to the 50 seater.
And you Junior 50 Captains will take a much bigger paycut when you go back to the freakin right seat!!! Enjoy the whiz wheel and weight and balance forms. See ya on the walk around. When will you guys see, we are way above those we are competing with on these 700's. Why is it a bluff of JA to say they will take them away? Then everyone gets a big paycut!

Congrats Charles, congrats Scott... you have won this sucker over, anyone else!!!


Did you not expect this right before the strike vote??? Come on 79%...they can transfer those planes back just as fast as they took them away. you act like they were on property. We never even had them to begin with...THEY ARE REACHING. They want you to be scared so you vote no...it is all part of the game. I have been here for a while too, and before that I was flying other places...I would love to upgrade, but what good does the upgrade do me if i keep replacing the jobs that I am striving to get. If we keep going lower and lower on pay, there will be no major jobs left....we will have replaced them all.

It is amazing to me how they can convince you that we are doing that bad. Do you think that they are going to shut down the most profitable airline in the industry (according to profit margins, we are).....NOOOOO!!!

When there margins go up, there bonuses go up. If we take a cut, we will be the laughing stock of the industry.... I can see the headlines now

MANAGEMENT SUCKERS MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE INTO CONCESSIONS!!!

We Have to stand up to them. This is all to be expected. PLEASE, FOR EVERYONES SAKE, DON'T BUY IT!!! IF WE DON'T HAVE A STRONG VOTE, WE WILL GET OUR A$$'S HANDED TO US ON THIS CONTRACT....MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT.

 

[FL990]

It's about picking your battles. You may win the fight and get your pay increases on the CR7, but JA will win the war in the end. You have a higher rate with no a/c to fly when he shifts CR7 flying to SKW. This is not the last contract negotiation we will endure. At the end of five years we start all over again and if industry will support it a bump in pay will occur.

Pick your battles and get it done...

Its not just about the decrease on the 700 but about the 200 as well. We cannot accept a contract that has no cost of living increase for anyone. That in and of itself is concessionary. It is unacceptable. NO ONE INCLUDING ALPA EXPECTS A HUGE RAISE...WHAT YOU SAW IN THE ALPA CHART ABOUT PAY IS THERE TO GIVE ROOM FOR NEGOTIATION. THE REASON NEGOTIATIONS STOPPED IS BECAUSE THE COMPANY DIDN'T BACK OFF OF THERE MULTIPLE CONCESSIONARY PROPOSAL.

Remember, they did not just want one cut, but two separate cuts from 700 pilots. They did not back down from that at all. Also, there was no increase for any FO's and 13 % initial decrease for 700 FO's (that means you 79%) This is to motivate you to hose yourself in the future for possible growth. Afterall, no one can live for very long on this FO pay, and that is the idea...Its not that they can't afford to pay you, its that they don't want you to get comfortable, so they can leverage growth, JUST LIKE THEY ARE DOING NOW!!!!

 

[SuperKooter]

Tell me, what airline has shut down as a direct result of pilot costs?

Mesaba is looking that way so is comair.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I believe the current environment that we are all stuck in is management's fault. For years they used bluffs and dangled carrots to try and get what they wanted during every contract negotiations at MOST airlines. They moaned doom and gloom to get what they wanted. They said the paycut was temporary when it never was meant to be (SKW) They said they needed concessions for growth, which never came (CMR) Based on past performance THEY ARE LYING, LYING, LYING,

However, I am afraid it IS possible that Tutt's letter has a ring of truth to it. In the current environment Delta DOES require us to be within a certain cost stucture or someone else gets the flying.

However, because of past dishonesty and LACK of credibility from MGMT during past negotiations, 99.9% of the pilot group say "It's all smoke and mirrors" and "its just to dangle growth for concessions" when it is possible that it is not.

It is all ASA Management's fault. G.O. workers, get YOUR resume ready

 

[COOPERVANE]

By the way, I am voting YES on the strike vote, and I still enjoy having D'anjello on my ignore list.

 

[dardar]

Not that I'm in favor of a pay cut or anything, but you guys really need to rethink the whole "most profitable airline" thing. That really doesn't say a whole lot. If you're going to make an argument, do it with numbers. Management will understand that more.

 

[JustaNumber]

So the big question is, is this a bluff or not? Will Skywest Inc. actually shrink ASA to punish us for not being competitive enough?

I personally can't believe that Skywest had previously made a firm decision (with a big announcement) on sending the 900's to ASA based on their assumption that the pilots would have agreed to a concessionary contract by now, and we would all be happy campers flying for less money as of August 1st. They knew that a concessionary contract was far from being signed, but they bet the farm anyway, and arranged for a huge delivery of a new type of aircraft? I know the people in charge around here are not too brilliant as managers, but that would have been a collossally stupid business decision.

If somehow this actually isn't a bluff, an even bigger question is, how can we stop management from doing this to us again and again in the future? ("Everybody needs to take a 20% paycut this time, or else we take xxx more airplanes away and give them to Skywest.")

I think our primary contract negotiating goal needs to be scope. And at this point, I'm thinking the best scope includes merging at least the ASA/Skywest seniority lists. Anyone else with me? Any better ideas?

 

[FL990]

Not that I'm in favor of a pay cut or anything, but you guys really need to rethink the whole "most profitable airline" thing. That really doesn't say a whole lot. If you're going to make an argument, do it with numbers. Management will understand that more.

I AGREE

13.1% profit margins...$85MIL+ profits

 

[FL990]

However, I am afraid it IS possible that Tutt's letter has a ring of truth to it. In the current environment Delta DOES require us to be within a certain cost stucture or someone else gets the flying.

COOPERATIVE,

do you think delta gives a CRAP what ASA's costs are if they are getting a good price?? or to put it another way, when you go to the grocery store, do you care how much kroger paid for the box of cookies??? NOOOOOOO

All you care about is what YOUUUU pay for the cookies!!

Our company has plenty of room to come down on there prices and still be competative. With 13.1% margins (which are over 2% higher than the number 2 airline, which by the way, WASN'T skywest), they can lower prices to remain competative, still be profitable, and still pay there bills (us).

The problem is, when ASA profit margins go down, that means there bonuses go down, and why would management want to give up there money when they can sucker us into giving up ours?? Because that is exactly the situation...THAT IS REALITY...THE REST IS JUST LIES AND THREATS!!!

 

[ASABound]

Super Cooter

We all know what super cooters feelings are with a name like that. All the junior guys care about is a darn upgrade and to drink the COOL AID. !! Get a life and go work for SKW if you dont want to try to keep /raise the bar!!

 

[IFLYASA]

Way to go you ASA MEC clowns you just cost people their jobs. I hope you are happy. I wish there was a way that some of us pilots with brains could negotiate our own contract and be put on another list were those who actually wanted growth and some chance leaving this dump with pic could do that. If we strike I WILL KEEP FLYING and I don't give 2 craps about you losers and you precious Alpa MEC. I hate them and their Criminal leaders.

"I hope we never cross paths in operations, it could get real ugly"

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why can't we put it up to a vote?

Well, they do surveys and the scary thing is - ALPA's opener on pay is right what I've been saying when they ask. At least I've gotten smart enough to say SCOPE is priority #1 and Pay is #2 and I don't give a rats a$$ about the Company having to pay for Flica.

 

[IFLYASA]

that you childree, dang, you're everywhere

LMAO !!!!!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

So the big question is, is this a bluff or not? Will Skywest Inc. actually shrink ASA to punish us for not being competitive enough?

I personally can't believe that Skywest had previously made a firm decision (with a big announcement) on sending the 900's to ASA based on their assumption that the pilots would have agreed to a concessionary contract by now,

Classic Carrot and Stick. But it is not a bluff. Atkin doesn't bluff (doesn't have to - they are his airplanes and we got no scope with Skywest)

...an even bigger question is, how can we stop management from doing this to us again and again in the future? ("Everybody needs to take a 20% paycut this time, or else we take xxx more airplanes away and give them to Skywest.")

I think our primary contract negotiating goal needs to be scope. And at this point, I'm thinking the best scope includes merging at least the ASA/Skywest seniority lists. Anyone else with me? Any better ideas?

You are exactly right!

 

[IFLYASA]

COOL!!! 900's for 50 seat pay!!! I can't wait!

Come on guys... in general, us at SKYW are NOT happy about getting 900's on the property especially when they're used to whipsaw us against each other. In my opinion, our pilot group made a really poor decision voting through what was supposed to be an 18 month agreement. Just for the record, I voted down that TA and knew we were setting a precedent we didn't want to set. Here we are almost four years later and nothing's changed.

Personally, I wish you guys all the best and support you 100%.

"If only all of your pilots had your stance. Thank You."

 

[~~~^~~~]

If we were the only game in town, we could possibly force higher costs on mainline carriers, but all of us know this is an extraordinarily competitive business. Our Delta Connection Agreement (DCA) requires that by year three (2008), we must have average costs of all DCI carriers and that by year five (2010), we must have the second lowest costs of all DCI carriers.

Most sincerely,

Charlie Tutt
Vice President, Flight Operations​

Guys - I know some of you, especially ATR driver - have long been critical of my position that small jet carriers should be allowed to enter into scope agreements with mainline carriers. But if ALPA had not taken he position outlined in this letter, we would not be in this "extraordinarily competitive business" where the difference between a successful airline and an airplane on the path to sudden destruction is whether or not the pilot is paid as a professional.

http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

Guys we are in this position because ALPA put us here. There is no other reason.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

I hate the union and SkyWest managment could feel good knowing that I would vote no on any drive for alpa.

That's why we don't want or need you here!

 

[wms]

CRJ 700

3RD Quarter 2005​

​

ASA SKYW CMR

Operating Data

Revenue Passenger Miles (mil.)
593.36 514.58 399.01
Available Seat Miles (mil.)
746.15 655.28 554.85
Load Factor
79.52% 78.53% 71.91


Revenue Miles (000)
10,659 9,783 7,926
Revenue Hours
24,253 22,666 19,385
Block Hours
30,180 28,551 24,331
Aircraft Days
2,028 3,126 2,366
Revenue Departures
15,584 15,162 14,672
Gallons of Fuel (000)
14,367 14,103 11,601




Financial Data (000)

Flight Crew Expense
$9,730 $9341 $8,227
Fuel Expense
$27,127 $29,633 $22,199
Total Flying Expense
$38,953 $39,737 $31,264


Direct Maint. - Airframe
$4,331 $1,715 $3,391
Direct Main. - Engines
$888 $3,530 $317
Total Direct Maintenance
$5,219 $5,245 $3,708
Maintenance Burden
$693 $0 $1,462


Depreciation
$7,012 $2608 $6,059
Aircraft Rent
$1,033 $11,984 $255


Total Aircraft Operating Expense
$53,112 $59,574 $42,748


Operating Cost per Block Hour ($)

Flight Crew Cost
$322 $327 $338
Fuel Cost
$899 $1038 $912
Other Costs
$69 $27 $34


Total Flying Cost
$1,291 $1392 $1285


Direct Main. - Airframe
$144 $60 $139
Direct Main. - Engines
$29 $124 $13
Total Direct Maintenance
$173 $184 $152
Maintenance Burden
$23 $0 $60


Total Maintenance Costs
$196 $91 $212


Depreciation
$232 $91 $249
Aircraft Rent
$34 $420 $10


Total Cost per Block Hour
$1,760 $2087 $1,757


Ratios and Operating Indicators

Cost per Available Seat Mile
7.12 9.09 7.70
Flight Crew Cost per ASM
1.30 1.43 1.48
Cost per Aircraft Mile
$5 $6 $5
Daily Utilization
14.9 9.1 10.3
Average Speed
353 343 326
Gallons of Fuel per Block Hour
476 494 477
Fuel Cost per Gallon
$1.89 $2.10 $1.91
Average Stage Length
684 645 540
Average Departures per Day
8 5 6
Cost per Departure
$3,408 $3,929 $2914

Data Derived from DOT Form 41

Overall ASA is cheaper, even on the 700's. How about a little something for the effort. No deal until all ASA employees and mgmt take cuts.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

FL990, It is not about overall company profits per quarter. It is about DL going to DCI and saying, I need a 70 seat a/c on this route for the lowest price what can you do. If ASA is not competative, they will move on a not think another thing of it. They are not going to say well ACEY, I like you and you are cheaper on the 50 seater, I'll lose potential revenue and downgrade.

As far as CR2 rates, yes I agree that current contract yearly increases are required.

It's all about business...

 

[COOPERVANE]

COOPERATIVE,

do you think delta gives a CRAP what ASA's costs are if they are getting a good price?? or to put it another way, when you go to the grocery store, do you care how much kroger paid for the box of cookies??? NOOOOOOO

All you care about is what YOUUUU pay for the cookies!!

Our company has plenty of room to come down on there prices and still be competative. With 13.1% margins (which are over 2% higher than the number 2 airline, which by the way, WASN'T skywest), they can lower prices to remain competative, still be profitable, and still pay there bills (us).

The problem is, when ASA profit margins go down, that means there bonuses go down, and why would management want to give up there money when they can sucker us into giving up ours?? Because that is exactly the situation...THAT IS REALITY...THE REST IS JUST LIES AND THREATS!!!

You bring up some good points. I truly hope you are right.

 

[goahead]

How about our great new friend ex chief pilot that is posting BS on our union web site..... So you fu_k us for how many years and now you want to be our bud so you can get your final 6 months of pay and be gone. It's senior di_ks like that that make me want to vote hell yea. Fuc-in fag.