ASA hats

[PCL_128]

Rez,
What do you think about the DAL MEC not showing up for the picketing?

Do you have any proof that the DAL pilots were not there? I know for a fact that you weren't there, so how do you even know?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Agreed. All pilots should be supporting all pilots.

(do not spin this into a RJDC discussion point.....)

Now that we agree on something, let's continue. If we are all "bidding" for flying within a brand, if we are all being played against each other in RFPs, if we are all bargaining "separately", how does ALPA stop the whipsaw? Your primary points recently are to back the PAC and wear hats during informational picketing. I see neither as a roadblock to the portfolio bidding war.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Do you have any proof that the DAL pilots were not there? I know for a fact that you weren't there, so how do you even know?

Because it is coming from one of our MEC members who was there. I see absolutely NO evidence of any "brand scope" from either the DAL nor the NWA MECs. The current battles at ASA, CMR, PCL, and Mesaba are critical if ALPA is to salvage any of it's bargaining power at the regional level. I don't see much help from the mainline MECs.

 

[atrdriver]

Gents-

The clothes we wear are not what makes us professionals; instead, it is our attitudes. Playing dress-up doesn't do much to a person with an unprofessional attitude.

A passenger can't see your attitude from across the terminal, unless it is really really bad. But they can see if you look like a slob. And I guarantee that if you look like a slob, that WILL have a direct impact on their view of you.

 

[atrdriver]

Now that we agree on something, let's continue. If we are all "bidding" for flying within a brand, if we are all being played against each other in RFPs, if we are all bargaining "separately", how does ALPA stop the whipsaw? Your primary points recently are to back the PAC and wear hats during informational picketing. I see neither as a roadblock to the portfolio bidding war.....

No one was agreeing with you, they just don't turn it into an RJDC rant. Tell me how RFPs, and your brand scope has ANYTHING to do with whether you, or I, have to wear a hat in when we leave the Bada Bing lounge. And again, I think we should keep the hats, and while we're at it ditch the leather jackets.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Now that we agree on something, let's continue. If we are all "bidding" for flying within a brand, if we are all being played against each other in RFPs, if we are all bargaining "separately", how does ALPA stop the whipsaw? Your primary points recently are to back the PAC and wear hats during informational picketing. I see neither as a roadblock to the portfolio bidding war.....

Excellent point. Considering the RLA and political forces that favor CorpAmerica how is the current ability of ALPA effective?

IOW, change needs to occur, but will changes within ALPA be enough? Or do we need to change the RLA and others via ALPA? Or do have other ideas?

 

[PCL_128]

and while we're at it ditch the leather jackets.

I just wanted to repeat this one for Rez.

Agree with you 100%, atrdriver.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I just wanted to repeat this one for Rez.

Agree with you 100%, atrdriver.

UPS just got leather jackets...

I was talking to a NWA FO the other day and he was talking about ordering his... are NWA mainline guys getting the option too.... NWA mainline wings say US MAIL. I wonder if those guys back in the 1920's and 30's wore leather?

Leather jackets are great... they represent the past while functioning for the future....

Leather jackets should be second to the blazer at picketing and pilot funerals.

Leather jackets go with the pilot image. What does the average passenger think when they see a pilot with a leather jacket. They can go together...and they do... I've gotten compliments on the leather with the hat. It went like this.. 'Hey nice jacket.. looks good with the hat.. too bad you're ugly otherwise you'd have a nice appearance'

The question is.. who doesn't have leather now? CAL? DAL? UAL has em, AMR...too..

DAL was the last to get the jumpseat.. but the day we see the DAL guys crusing ATL with double breasted leather coats will be the day! I say go full length guys.... The gestapo look is in!

 

[PCL_128]

UPS just got leather jackets...

Good for them. I have yet to see one of them wearing it, however. Hopefully they'll resist the urge to look like fighter-pilot wannabes.

I wonder if those guys back in the 1920's and 30's wore leather?

Yes, they did.... OUT OF NECESSITY!!!!! When you start flying an open cockpit biplane, then maybe leather would be an appropriate apparel item.

Leather jackets should be second to the blazer at picketing and pilot funerals.

Naval aviators have leather jackets. But do they wear them to formal events? Of course not, because they look far too casual. Using a leather jacket for any serious event such as the picketing and funeral events that you refer to is inappropriate and tacky.

What does the average passenger think when they see a pilot with a leather jacket.

The same thing they think when they see him without a hat, with Ipod earbuds stuck in his ears, or with black tennis shoes: "Is this d0uchebag going to be flying my plane?"

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good for them. I have yet to see one of them wearing it, however. Hopefully they'll resist the urge to look like fighter-pilot wannabes.

I don't think the perrone leather jacket looks fighter pilot. Now if we starting wearing bags and sunglasses indoors, shooting down our watches and putting patches on the jacket then your fighter pilot image would apply..

Yes, they did.... OUT OF NECESSITY!!!!! When you start flying an open cockpit biplane, then maybe leather would be an appropriate apparel item.

have you ever flown in an open cockpit biplane?

Naval aviators have leather jackets. But do they wear them to formal events? Of course not, because they look far too casual. Using a leather jacket for any serious event such as the picketing and funeral events that you refer to is inappropriate and tacky.

that is right.. However, i don't think pilots in leather were turned away when they showed up to support another airline. I know I wasn't when I showed to support two different airlines not my own. In fact that is were I got one of the compliments on the jacket.

The same thing they think when they see him without a hat, with Ipod earbuds stuck in his ears, or with black tennis shoes: "Is this d0uchebag going to be flying my plane?"

Nice try but it doesn't work. trying to associate the leather jacket with the kewl kids of your generation doesn't work. The leather jacket is worn by all generations. It is getting more and more accepted.

The leather jackets is accepted by the pilots and the public.


Now.. how does this rationale apply to the hat...????


The public accepts that hat..... the pilots... not so much.... where does the money come from that ends up in your paycheck?

 

[PCL_128]

I don't think the perrone leather jacket looks fighter pilot. How if we starting wearing bags and putting patches on the jacket then your fighter pilot image would apply..

Semantics. Figher pilots wear leather, air line pilots wear blazers. Simple.

have you ever flown in an open cockpit airplane?

Nope. Have you ever flown in one in the conditions that they experienced?

that is right.. However, i don't think pilots in leather were turned away when they showed up to support another airline.

That's a red herring. You stated originally that leather should be used for formal events. Do you believe that it's appropriate to wear casual apparel like a leather jacket to a fellow pilot's funeral?

As for the picketing, I would never turn away a pilot from another airline who showed up in leather because I'm always grateful that they showed up at all, but I have told our pilots on many occasions that they need to show up in the blazer when we picket. Our SPC has taken the position that all of our pilots must look uniform in appearance while picketing, and that includes everyone wearing the blazer. We'll be picketing in MEM next month. I encourage you to show up and walk the line.... in the blazer.

It is getting more and more accepted.

The leather jackets is accepted by the pilots and the public.

These are the same arguments that the no-hat whiners use to justify their actions.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Semantics. Figher pilots wear leather, air line pilots wear blazers. Simple.


Your belief doesn't not match reality.

Nope. Have you ever flown in one in the conditions that they experienced?

yes.


That's a red herring. You stated originally that leather should be used for formal events. Do you believe that it's appropriate to wear casual apparel like a leather jacket to a fellow pilot's funeral?

I did not state that. I said leather is secondary to the blazer for formal events. However, If a pilot showed up picketing or a funeral in leather I don't think s/he should be turned away.

As for the picketing, I would never turn away a pilot from another airline who showed up in leather because I'm always grateful that they showed up at all, but I have told our pilots on many occasions that they need to show up in the blazer when we picket. Our SPC has taken the position that all of our pilots must look uniform in appearance while picketing, and that includes everyone wearing the blazer. We'll be picketing in MEM next month. I encourage you to show up and walk the line.... in the blazer.

And if I don't?

So you give more credit to a pilot of another airline than your own?

These are the same arguments that the no-hat whiners use to justify their actions.

No... the no hat whiners try to justify not wearing the hat for personal reasons even though it is effective for professional reasons. You know.... the me me me me-ism combined with a pilot being his own worst enemy; my immediate comfort most important.

The leather jacket is approved company uniform and accepted by the public. So is the hat. If the leather jacket was in the I-pod/backpack category then you'd have an arguement.

 

[PCL_128]

And if I don't?

That's up to the SPC and the MEM reps. In DTW, you would be asked to do some task other than picketing (uniform inspections, leaflet distribution, etc...). Take a look at our pictures from the DTW picketing event. Not a one of our pilots in the line is wearing a leather jacket, and every single one of them is wearing a hat. It presents the image of a unified front. Anything that breaks that image is not desirable.

So you give more credit to a pilot of another airline than your own?

No, I simply don't have the means of communication to spread the word to pilots from other airlines of what our uniform standards will be for the event. It's difficult to even spread the word to other airlines that we're even having an event, let alone what the dress code is. (For the record, the pilot from another airline that picketed in leather in DTW expressed his regret for not having his blazer with him. He was unaware that we preferred the blazer.)

No... the no hat whiners try to justify not wearing the hat becuase they don't like it even though it is effective.

That is one argument they use, but they also say that "the public doesn't care." "I look just as good without the hat." The exact same sentiments that you express about the leather. You claim that the hat is effective, and I claim that the blazer is also. It's the same argument, just about a different item of clothing.

One thing you can't dispute: since the days of the Pan Am flying boats, air line pilots have worn the same basic uniform. White shirt, tie, hat, and blazer. You want to regress to the times of the air mail pilots when they wore leather jackets out of necessity. Do you also want to start wearing a long scarf and goggles?

The leather jacket is approved company uniform and accepted by the public.

At many companies, not wearing the hat is also approved by the company. Despite that, you still argue that wearing the hat is important. Your argument lacks consistency.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's up to the SPC and the MEM reps. In DTW, you would be asked to do some task other than picketing (uniform inspections, leaflet distribution, etc...). Take a look at our pictures from the DTW picketing event. Not a one of our pilots in the line is wearing a leather jacket, and every single one of them is wearing a hat. It presents the image of a unified front. Anything that breaks that image is not desirable.

Can't particapte becuase of wearing a company uniorm? nice. What other conditions are required to be in the club?

As far as MEM. I think that council is going to need all they can get.... choosing whether a pilot fits the inner clique defintion might hurt your numbers.

I'd rather see 100 pilots with and without hats and jackets and blazers than 40. This is MEM.



No, I simply don't have the means of communication to spread the word to pilots from other airlines of what our uniform standards will be for the event. It's difficult to even spread the word to other airlines that we're even having an event, let alone what the dress code is. (For the record, the pilot from another airline that picketed in leather in DTW expressed his regret for not having his blazer with him. He was unaware that we preferred the blazer.)

And I got compliments when I showed at two others... Choose your battles. This isn't one in my opinion. Your effectiveness in numbers exceeds the need of uniform details.

That is one argument they use, but they also say that "the public doesn't care." "I look just as good without the hat." The exact same sentiments that you express about the leather. You claim that the hat is effective, and I claim that the blazer is also. It's the same argument, just about a different item of clothing.

However you are letting your personal opinon clout your arguement. The public doesn't mind the leather. And the fact that more and more legacy airlines are going leather counters your arguement.

One thing you can't dispute: since the days of the Pan Am flying boats, air line pilots have worn the same basic uniform. White shirt, tie, hat, and blazer. You want to regress to the times of the air mail pilots when they wore leather jackets out of necessity. Do you also want to start wearing a long scarf and goggles?

I argue that the leather works because it blends the past and works for the future.

At many companies, not wearing the hat is also approved by the company. Despite that, you still argue that wearing the hat is important. Your argument lacks consistency.

Yup... I am arguing hats and leather.. both optional. But both are effective with the public. I am using public opinion to guide my arguement. You are using personal opinion.....

 

[PCL_128]

But both are effective with the public. I am using public opinion to guide my arguement. You are using personal opinion.....

And how do you determine public opinion? The same way I am: personal opinion! You haven't scientifically polled the public on their opinion between hats and no hats, or blazers vs leather jackets. You are using your own perception of public opinion just as I am.

This discussion is not going to go anywhere. You have your perception of the public's opinion on this, and I have mine. I prefer to dress like a tradition air line pilot. You can do as you see fit.

 

[HelloNewman]

No... the no hat whiners try to justify not wearing the hat for personal reasons even though it is effective for professional reasons. You know.... the me me me me-ism combined with a pilot being his own worst enemy; my immediate comfort most important.

The leather jacket is approved company uniform and accepted by the public. So is the hat. If the leather jacket was in the I-pod/backpack category then you'd have an arguement.

It is also company uniform at a lot of places that the hat is optional. I have never hear a member of the public ask why we aren't wearing hats. I have also never had someone question our ability to fly the airplane based on having no hat. The basic argument is that "its tradition" and "looks professional". No tradition lasts forever and the professional thing is up for debate. Has anyone actually polled the public what they think? As far as the ipod goes I don't wear it walking through the terminal but I don't see a problem wearing one while deadheading. People can't expect you to just sit there and read the crappy airline magazine. The best way to avoid this conflict however is deadhead/non-rev incognito if able.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And how do you determine public opinion? The same way I am: personal opinion! You haven't scientifically polled the public on their opinion between hats and no hats, or blazers vs leather jackets. You are using your own perception of public opinion just as I am.

Public opinion? I am using what FedEx MEC Chair DW said (We got out pilots hats and we got a the best contract) as my basis for public opinion. The FedEx pilots, who normally don't wear hats wore them in the public view to picket.

Whenever any organization markets the pilot image to the public (resulting in influencing thier opinion) a pilot has a hat on. Is the SWA pilot in a recent commerical who wears a hat also wearing a leather jacket? (not sure)

That is good enough for me. For you?

This discussion is not going to go anywhere. You have your perception of the public's opinion on this, and I have mine. I prefer to dress like a tradition air line pilot. You can do as you see fit.

No... you have your perception of the public's opinion based on your opinion, I have the a perception of the publics opinion based on the FedEx TA and a SWA commerical...

The traditional airline pilot wore leather. It was only till later that he wore a suit. And that was after maritime officers, not aviators....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is also company uniform at a lot of places that the hat is optional. I have never hear a member of the public ask why we aren't wearing hats. I have also never had someone question our ability to fly the airplane based on having no hat. The basic argument is that "its tradition" and "looks professional". No tradition lasts forever and the professional thing is up for debate. Has anyone actually polled the public what they think? As far as the ipod goes I don't wear it walking through the terminal but I don't see a problem wearing one while deadheading. People can't expect you to just sit there and read the crappy airline magazine. The best way to avoid this conflict however is deadhead/non-rev incognito if able.

Newman for the love of god and your own self repsect! Engage in the debate and quit using the same old self centered reasons!

At least PCL128 is worthy!

Is the FedEx TA and SWA commercial not enough for you? I've asked you over and over and over again to debate the hat at a picketing event. Please tell me why the hat is counter productive at a picket event?

If you're DHD-ing and you can't close your eyes and spend some time in your own mind then read a book! Does the airline magazine have to not be crappy? Who cares about inflight magazines! Instead why don't you try and figure out why you are right and the rest of the world doesn't get it!!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

UPS just got leather jackets...

I was talking to a NWA FO the other day and he was talking about ordering his... are NWA mainline guys getting the option too.... NWA mainline wings say US MAIL. I wonder if those guys back in the 1920's and 30's wore leather?

Sweet. Then let's start wearing the leather cap and goggles too. Mail pilots also had to wear government issued revolvers on their hips. Maybe we should start doing that as well?? Then we would look far more professional than the guy not wearing his had. Give me a break.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Sweet. Then let's start wearing the leather cap and goggles too. Mail pilots also had to wear government issued revolvers on their hips. Maybe we should start doing that as well?? Then we would look far more professional than the guy not wearing his had. Give me a break.

FFDO. Already do. Just becuase we wear leather like the ol days doesn't mean I'm using a E6B and flying VFR. Does anyone know when to draw the line? Or do they want to debate the little details?