Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

[BE90flyer]

Your company doesn't give a flying fu&^ about you, John. If Jerry could chain your ass to that seat and force you to fly around the clock for no compensation, then that's exactly what he would do.

Thats the typical liberal rant. The big bad corporations would work you to death and then take your children and do the same.

Give it up PCl, you have been proven to be a hypocritical dumbasssss.

Prove your last statement, did you personally talk to Jerry? There are some big bad corporations that realize treating your employees well is good for business.

When are you going to realize that your scare tactics will not work on everybody.

 

[PCL_128]

Thats the typical liberal rant. The big bad corporations would work you to death and then take your children and do the same.

Fine, keep living in your dream world. Eventually you're going to find out the hard way that Jerry is just like the rest of them: amoral and unethical. But if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that the heartless corporations actually care for you, then go right ahead.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez- CESTA? no i haven't.

Megadeath- I AGREE completely- my issue is that pilots are frustrated b/c their advancement is based too much on luck and the efforts of a management that may or may not have the same objectives as you. Think about it- especially at the regional level- what is the thing that determines your happiness and sense of security the most--- GROWTH and movement- But being union or not union does not make you the co-managers of your airline though. If you don't have the ability to make changes as the industry does-- that will get frustrating(!)

Companies fail- they downsize-- then others come in and fill the gap. The demand for aviation has grown- yet pilots have not reaped the reward for that b/c our seniority system doesn't allow us to make changes.

The entire industry is much MUCH more volatile since deregulation but we've refused to change.

Here's one good idea to start. Stop making our career's so END-loaded. Except for senior captains- we're all chasing carrots. If we evened out pay in our career- got rid of 1st and 2nd year pay- pilots could make moves a bit more easily and that would put more negotiating power back in our hands.

btw- Mega-- do you know the history behind UPS one payrate for all airplanes. I really like it for the same reasons as above (as long as you don't lose out on the concept of bigger a/c = bigger compensation- but let the whole pilot group benefit, not just those flying it.) But i don't know how it came to be there.

CESTA... communities for economic strength thru aviation... baseball style arbitration for airline pilots...

All of your above are good points... problem is there is no one stop shopping express lane check out for it all.. the issues are complex... bashing ALPA is bashing ALPA it isn't addressing the problems... the rest of gov't and industry laugh at pilots like us that fight internally and can never speak singly...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Joe:

And therein lies the true problem....

I have seen it many times in my career....where the pilot forgets who pays his check. ALPA never paid one of my bills for me. They collected dues and they represented me when it was politically prudent or outright illegal if they didn't. Every other time they ducked and ran like babies.

Union or non-union, the company that hired me pays my salary. I never forget that. Is the company perfect, no. But neither is ALPA.

A350

Don;t you know one of the union maxim's.... the company pays your paycheck... uinions fill in the amount... even at SKYWEST!!

How'd you like to earn the pay the company wants to give?

 

[Gandalf]

HELLO JOE, A350 AND BE90.......

WOW, WTF PLANET DO YOU GUYS LIVE ON?

Management's job is to run a business to make a profit. That's it. Black and White. Plain and Simple. CUT AND DRY.

Whatever the distractions of whatever job or career you are involved in, whatever duties the employees must take on, whatever the risks that the employees take on a daily basis to do their jobs, doesn't matter to them. Run it to make a profit.

Why do think it is necessary for the government to have so many rules governing employers? EPA, Disability Act, Equal Employment Opportunity, OSHA, etc., etc.

Without oversight, management of companies would sell their grandmothers soul if it made them one penny of profit. It is the function of management. It is capitalism.

The DUTY and RESPONSIBILTY of all of us is to make sure that managements don't get away with these things.

Why? Are all managers and anyone involved in management evil? No, again - THAT IS THEIR FUNCTION. MAKE A PROFIT FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS. THAT'S IT.

THE CEO OF YOUR COMPANY MIGHT BE A NICE GUY AND IF SOMETHING HAPPENS TO YOU PERSONALLY HE/SHE MAY CARE...

WHATEVER EMOTIONS YOU HAVE TOWARDS YOUR COMPANY, WHATEVER EMOTIONS YOUR COMPANY SEEMS TO HAVE TOWARDS YOU....

DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO NOT FOR ONE SECOND, MISTAKE THAT FACT THAT WHEN THE CHIPS ARE DOWN.....

YOU ARE JUST A MOVEABLE PIECE.....A NUMBER.....

HE/SHE MAY SIGN YOUR PAYCHECK BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE/SHE ACTUALLY CARES.....

THE BOTTOM LINE.....

THE PHONE CALL TO THE BOARD......THAT IS WHAT MATTERS.....ITS CALLED SELF PRESERVATION!!!!

ITS CALLED BUSINESS!!!!


Business, From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In economics, a business is a legally-recognized organizational entity existing within an economically free country designed to sell goods and/or services to consumers, usually in an effort to generate profit.

In predominantly capitalist economies, where most businesses are privately owned, businesses are typically formed to earn profit and grow the personal wealth of their owners.


Hmmm......Nothing about the growing the wealth of the employees.....Hmmm......


The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for their work and their acceptance of risk

Again from Wikipedia.....

Nature of managerial work

In for-profit work, management has as its primary function the satisfaction of a range of stakeholders. This typically involves making a profit (for the shareholders), creating valued products at a reasonable cost (for customers), and providing rewarding employment opportunities (for employees).

Public, private, and voluntary sectors place different demands on managers, but all must retain the faith of those who select them (if they wish to retain their jobs), retain the faith of those people that fund the organization, and retain the faith of those who work for the organization.

 

[BigLebowski]

Well then you sir a true idiot.... I would take Skywest over Mesa...... as would anyone with half a brain....

You want ALPA and I want a good company..... ALPA doesn't provide for my well being..... my company does....

I'll second this one. Didn't management just go ahead and cancel all of the the vacations for the rest of the year at Mesa?

You really have to be smoking some good sh*t to even suggest taking Mesa over SkyW.

Someone on here said it best on another thread...ALPA has done this to themselves. You can't blame us; who do support the idea of ALPA, not to want to invite their problems into our backyard.

 

[pilotyip]

Thank Goodness That Profit Is The Desire Of Managers. My Investments Since 1971 In Profitable Companies Are Going Allow Me To Retire With A Decent Level Of Income.

 

[Gandalf]

Thank Goodness That Profit Is The Desire Of Managers. My Investments Since 1971 In Profitable Companies Are Going Allow Me To Retire With A Decent Level Of Income.

Sometimes, that happens at the employes expense at the very companies that you have invested.

Talk to the former employees and investors of Enron about profit. What if one of YOUR relatives was involved in that, either as an investor or employee?

There has to be a balance. If it is all "profit, profit, profit" then the employees will suffer. If it is "employee, employee, employee...then the company(and in the end the employee) suffers.

The point is if managements are left to their own devices then terrible things can and will happen to the employee, the customer, the economy.

Look at the recent spate of corporate scandals. All of those examples started with the desire to make a profit so YOU could get a return on YOUR investment.

Look at the devastation that has rippled through the economy because of these great managements handling of their companies.

There is a reason that greed is one of the seven sins.

Balance, Balance, Balance.

 

[MusicMan]

Whether you are pro-union or not, ALPA falls far of short of where its responsibilities lie if it would like to keep the title of "union." If ALPA is a union, why do Mesa, AWAC, Pinnacle, Comair, etc. all have different contracts? The reason is because each of these pilot groups acts independently of the others when it comes to contract negotiations. The pilot groups are provided with resources from ALPA National, but it is the pilots on property who negotiate the deals. Why is this? Why does our union leave it to us (pilots who have no background in union/management negotiations or sometimes even business) to negotiate our futures without the solidarity and expertise of our national union? When it's time to renew AWAC's contract, why doesn't ALPA send a team of expert negotiators to handle the contract talks on the behalf of the pilot group? Then they could do the same for all the other ALPA sponsored regionals. They could bargain for the same contract at all companies and then, finally, when all the pilot groups are being represented by the same leadership (ALPA National and their expert negotiating team) we can actually use the term "union" to describe ALPA. Until then, they are not living up to the name and they certainly aren't giving us what we deserve based on how much we pay them each year. AWAC pilots are carrying stickers on their flight cases now that say, "Where is my money?" The stickers are aimed at AWAC management, but perhaps we should all be carrying stickers that ask the same of ALPA National for they have been letting their regional pilots down for long enough.

 

[Gandalf]

Thank Goodness That Profit Is The Desire Of Managers. My Investments Since 1971 In Profitable Companies Are Going Allow Me To Retire With A Decent Level Of Income.

Why do think we have such a huge problem with our labor force being raped in favor of places like China?

Because MANAGEMENTS of Corporate America are unchecked/unbalanced.

They have figured out that it is cheaper to get products made in China. Is it a personal attack on the American work force? No. Just business. Who can blame them, right.

Cheaper products. Same pricing. More profit. Shareholders happy. Keep my job.

At the expense of the American workforce and as a whole the American economy.

Now, do I want my company to suceed? Of Course. I show up on time, try to do everything in my power(S.E. taxi's, etc.) to increase the profitability of my company. Why wouldn't I. I need the paycheck.

But do I want the company to run wild with that profitability and in the end not share in the sucess that I have contributed?

Again, balance. At some point in the equation, my hard work and attention to the companies goals will be taken advantage of my management.

Balance. Corporate America as a whole is so unbalanced right now. Like I said, there is a reason that the top news stories of the day is how much the American work force is suffering. One just has to look at the power(or LACK OF) the dollar.

So, while letting managements run the companies they way they need to in order to make the profit, in order to pay the employees, in order to put money in YOUR investment portfolio....

There is a price.

Where do we draw the line and how do we balance it out?

 

[PCL_128]

If ALPA is a union, why do Mesa, AWAC, Pinnacle, Comair, etc. all have different contracts? The reason is because each of these pilot groups acts independently of the others when it comes to contract negotiations. The pilot groups are provided with resources from ALPA National, but it is the pilots on property who negotiate the deals. Why is this? Why does our union leave it to us (pilots who have no background in union/management negotiations or sometimes even business) to negotiate our futures without the solidarity and expertise of our national union?

Because this is the way that the pilots want it. Go to your next Local Council meeting and bring a resolution that calls for ALPA National to negotiate all contracts for each airline. If you aren't the only pilot there besides your reps (a very likely possibility, since so many ALPA pilots are apathetic and don't attend meetings), then someone else will probably get pissed off because you want to put power in the hands of National to handle your own contract. You see, pilots want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be able to negotiate their own contracts and handle their own problems at their airlines, but then they want to blame National when everything doesn't work out as they hoped it would. For every pilot that wants to see a national seniority list, or a national contract, or yada, yada, yada, there's another pilot that wants to keep everything in control of their own MEC.

 

[MusicMan]

It's folly to call it a union then. It's a bunch of separate entities all giving money to a club which allows the entities to use it's nationally recognized name. That is all.

 

[PCL_128]

It's folly to call it a union then. It's a bunch of separate entities all giving money to a club which allows the entities to use it's nationally recognized name. That is all.

No, that is not all. Anyone who says that is woefully uninformed about how ALPA works. The resources that are available through Herndon allow each individual MEC to accomplish their objectives. Without the National organization, these individual MECs would be practically helpless. Even all of the independent unions industry-wide use ALPA National resources through services agreements because they can't do it without ALPA's help. As Rez frequently says, people have the wrong expectations and understandings about what ALPA is. ALPA is a toolbox, a group of resources. MECs can draw from these resources and pick tools from the tool box to help their pilots and to make progress in improving the profession. At the National level, ALPA works with congressmen, senators, government agencies, etc... to benefit pilots at that level. ALPA isn't just a name that is franchised out to different MECs. There's a whole lot more to it than that.

 

[TinGoose1]

PCL,

You obviously haven't spoke with any US Airway / America West pilots about the benefit of a common union. Being anti-ALPA isn't the same as being anti-union. I'm pro union, but anti-ALPA. Your going to realize someday that ALPA is out for ALPA, not your specific airline. Speak with Delta and Comair pilots about sharing a common union. Unionism is a great strength for any labor group, but ALPA doesn't have the ability to represent both sides of a conflict. For this reason, most airlines would be served well to have their own union. You don't have to be anti-union to be anti-ALPA.

-TG

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,

You obviously haven't spoke with any US Airway / America West pilots about the benefit of a common union.

Spoken with plenty of Airways pilots. Most of them are completely ignorant and are just trying to pin blame for their problems on someone else, even though they need to be looking in the mirror to see who it really is who caused their seniority issues.

Your going to realize someday that ALPA is out for ALPA, not your specific airline.

ALPA National deals with issues that affect he entire profession and provides assistance to MECs on their own issues. Your own MEC is there to take care of issues specific to your pilot group. If you think that ALPA National is all about yourself and your own airline, then you have obviously dreamed up some incorrect expectations about what ALPA is supposed to be about.

Speak with Delta and Comair pilots about sharing a common union.

The problems between these two pilot groups can be laid squarely at the feet of JC Lawson and the rest of the CMR leadership. ALPA National had nothing to do with it.

For this reason, most airlines would be served well to have their own union.

Having been an ALPA rep, and now working at an airline with our own in-house union, I can assure you that that is not at all true. Not to mention that most pilot groups couldn't even afford to support their own union.