Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

[pilotyip]

Better Way?

Here's how unions define us as simply hourly blue collar workers: Date of hire seniority lists.

Here's how to define ourselves in more of a professional status: Abolish seniority lists and pay based on education, training, experience, and professional accomplishments.

Why does a furloughed pilot with 10,000 hours and a pocket full of type ratings get paid $19/hour sitting in the right seat at a regional just like a 300 hour CFI? It is completely illogical. If you could move into the a comparable paying position with another company think of the power you would have. If you didn't like your pay and working conditions at airline ABC then you could move to ariline XYZ without starting over. Do you think that if an account manager from Deloitte and Touche crossed over to Ernst & Young that he would have to start over as an intern? That's what our industry does.

It'll never happen in my lifetime but it would have the same positive effect on our industry that it has had on every other industry in the free world.

What is a better way, ABC needs a 757 Captain, a current qualified one was just laid off by XYZ airlines, ABC hires him at $180K/yr. Sorry Mr F/O who has been at ABC for 7 years, it is cheaper to do that than upgrade you, so stay there at your $90K/yr job.
Have it put in your next union contract to hire off the street to protect the pay of the brother hood. I bet it does not happen remember all contracts are local in nature, and the locals protect thier own.

 

[capt. megadeth]

What should management at UPS do to make you less unhappy? The UPS job is at the absolute top of the food chain in terms of making it, but that is not good enought when you get there?

Who said I was unhappy?

The reason I am happy at UPS is due to the efforts of IPA, not UPS managment. If they could make us work 29 days out of the month for $20K a year, they would. I'm completely happy (of course, there are always things that could be better everywhere) but in no way, shape or form do I think anyone in UPS management gives a true crap about me. Anyone that would think that is crazy but hey, ignorance is bliss!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here's how unions define us as simply hourly blue collar workers: Date of hire seniority lists.

Here's how to define ourselves in more of a professional status: Abolish seniority lists and pay based on education, training, experience, and professional accomplishments.

Why does a furloughed pilot with 10,000 hours and a pocket full of type ratings get paid $19/hour sitting in the right seat at a regional just like a 300 hour CFI? It is completely illogical. If you could move into the a comparable paying position with another company think of the power you would have. If you didn't like your pay and working conditions at airline ABC then you could move to ariline XYZ without starting over. Do you think that if an account manager from Deloitte and Touche crossed over to Ernst & Young that he would have to start over as an intern? That's what our industry does.

It'll never happen in my lifetime but it would have the same positive effect on our industry that it has had on every other industry in the free world.

Sounds great.. please provide a critical and detailed analysis of your plan... provide the HOW as well... the only criteria is that everyone is treated fairly...

Keep in mind that you will have convince airlines to pay top wages for new hires... HOW are you going to do that. Please don't use a borad brush or say.. "ALPA should just do it"

Finally.. your suggested plan would lower wages significantly as furloughed pilots would keep lowering the bar to get a job... and the low time pilots would never advance cause there would always be a higher time pilot ready to take his job...

But you are smart guy... so let's hear your plan that addresses my concerns...

 

[pilotyip]

The other side

Who said I was unhappy?

The reason I am happy at UPS is due to the efforts of IPA, not UPS managment. If they could make us work 29 days out of the month for $20K a year, they would. I'm completely happy (of course, there are always things that could be better everywhere) but in no way, shape or form do I think anyone in UPS management gives a true crap about me. Anyone that would think that is crazy but hey, ignorance is bliss!

Hey how about you tell management you want to work one day a month for $100K/mo. You say management would pay you $20K for 28 days work. You know that is not true. They could not attract talented pilots such as your self to maintain their operations. Management has to balance between the two to ensure the bottom line and employee expectations to come up with a workable number. As stated before I am a former union member whose airlines are now out of business. Unions at profitable companies like UPS can ensure the balance shares fairly with the employees. It is a process to balance numbers. At marginally profitable airlines unions can do little to force a greater sharing. And BTW of course you are a number; everything in business is a number, wages, fuel, taxes, etc. If you have the answers to your problems you should go into management and make the company a better place to work.

 

[PCL_128]

And BTW of course you are a number

No, she is a person with a family and obligations. Fuel costs are a number. Debt service is a number. Employees are people. The fact that management doesn't get that is exactly the problem.

 

[Paradoxus]

Just what is it you are getting at, PilotYip? It seems as though you are equating the suicidal collapse of corrupt operators (i.e. Zantop claiming he would shut the place down in the event of a union) with blame placed squarely on the shoulders of a union.

Any operator threatening to "shut the place down" in the event of unionization really isn't worth a damn to begin with. Blame the unscupulous insects that ran the joint, not the employees for daring to ask for proper compensation.

You don't strike me as an Upton Sinclair fan, PilotYip.


Quote:
They could not attract talented pilots such as your self to maintain their operations.

Rubbish. I want to believe this is your attempt at levity.

Professionally, there is no compensation for measurable "talent" in aviation. A mediocre, yet passable pilot is paid just the same as a proper Yeager for the same seat. No doubt, you will counter this with claims to the contrary of your practices at USA Jet; you are a member of the training staff, yes? Perhaps. This is far from the status quo.

Make no mistake: UPS pays what it does ONLY because of the efforts of union negotiators. Skyus, in contrast, has tried to set a precedent for paying Airbus captains 65K/yr. It needn't be restated that management exists solely to extract as much profit as possible at the expense of the workforce. Any sense of moral obligation to labor that may exist in the ranks of managment only slighly attenuates this fact.

The indispensable content here is that we work in a dream job industry (this is how most every outsider sees it, don't deny it) , and as such we will always have to fight for professional-level compensation. We unionize and attempt at forcing employers to play nice, or we "vote with our feet" and shop every employer in the universe naively hoping for something better.

 

[MusicMan]

Quote:
They could not attract talented pilots such as your self to maintain their operations.

Rubbish. I want to believe this is your attempt at levity.

Actually, Pilotyip is correct. This is economics 101. It's called the supply and demand curve. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply here because the unions disrupt the equilibrium of the supply and demand curve.

 

[pilotyip]

Wrong

Make no mistake: UPS pays what it does ONLY because of the efforts of union negotiators. Skyus, in contrast, has tried to set a precedent for paying Airbus captains 65K/yr. It needn't be restated that management exists solely to extract as much profit as possible at the expense of the workforce. Any sense of moral obligation to labor that may exist in the ranks of managment only slighly attenuates this fact.

You don't strike me as an Upton Sinclair fan, PilotYip.

They pay what they pay because they are a very profitable company. The union ensures that is fairly shared, what many union militants don't seem to understand is if a new union came into Pinnacle they could not get the same pay. For all the union guys who have all the answers we desperately need your help on the management side. Please come over and help us. BTW who was Sinclair? Did he write a book on flying airplanes?

 

[PCL_128]

<font color="black">They pay what they pay because they are a very profitable company.

And they would love to be more profitable by screwing over their employees and paying them less and not giving them benefits. Honestly, for someone your age, you're very naive about how upper management thinks. These people see nothing but dollar signs, and the more they can steal from you, the more they can have for themselves.

 

[pilotyip]

Work with them all the time.

And they would love to be more profitable by screwing over their employees and paying them less and not giving them benefits. Honestly, for someone your age, you're very naive about how upper management thinks. These people see nothing but dollar signs, and the more they can steal from you, the more they can have for themselves.

Upper management here is aware of pilot concerns, since I came here days off are up 80% for DA-20 pilots, pay has doubled, many many things have been added by upper management to make this a better place to work. $100K for a DA-20 pilot is very doable after 10 years. No junior manning all scheduled days off are hard. Have not hired a Captain off the street since 1998. There is a single seniority list for 135 and 121 airplanes, respect seniority for all bids. Management knows that too much turnover is counter productive to staying in business. But there is a balance, when turnover is in a manageable range and you are profitable you are taking care of your employees. Twice the pilots have turned down union representation.

 

[capt. megadeth]

1. They could not attract talented pilots such as your self to maintain their operations.

2. If you have the answers to your problems you should go into management and make the company a better place to work.

1. Well, thanks!

2. Uh, that would involve selling my soul to the dark side.....never gonna happen. You couldn't pay me enough to be a manager at UPS. Once you go into management, you can never go back.....
Not only that, but I am DEFINITELY not management material. In addition, I never mentioned any problems, so I dunno what you are talking about.

 

[Paradoxus]

hmmmm

Upton Sinclair was a late 19th century/early 20th century author who wrote about the brutal conditions American laborers of his time were forced to endure. Capitalism unchecked.

I'm not saying by any stretch that our contemporary masters of industry, namely the ones in aviation, are the evil slavers of a century ago.

We're not far off, however.

Yes, there are a plethora of examples of failed unionization. The pay and working conditions of the regionals quickly jump into focus here. The alternative being complete submission to a ruling class that care nothing for any of you: like so many assorted societal problems, the only area of interest to the powers that be find themselves pursuing is the bottom line.

If unionization fails to bring better working conditions and pay, or perhaps, it collapses the company in question, then that is the way it has to be. At least a stand was made for the integrity of the profession.

PilotYip, I'm sure things are fine at USA Jet. I've heard nothing but positive feedback on the operation. You yourself seem like a pretty stand-up guy to work with.

Regretably, USA Jet is not representative of the industry climate.

Where you are mistaken is, as PCL_128 put it, you naively seem to broadly designate aviation management as a whole as being more or less benevolent, equating somehow that they consider employee satisfaction as being generally of paramount concern in generating profits. I'm sure most of us have found this is simply not the case.

Did it not occur to you that perhaps the culture of the industry, with few exceptions, may consider a pilot workforce as being entirely disposable due in no small part to our own actions? As we've seen in the past, there have always been people willing to fill the seats.

I would submit to you that from the standpoint of owners and management that turnover is of extraordinarily little concern.

Musicman: Your illustration of economics is rather pedestrian. This is not an issue of supply and demand, nor is it an issue of economic theory as a whole any more than the choice of stereo I select for my car has any bearing on fuel efficiency. I select the current climate of relations that now exists between AA managment and labor as an example: the airline refuses to restore pay under the false pretense of ensuring their survival, while management pockets unprecedented millions in corporate-level bonuses.

Hmmmmm...the equilibrium of the supply and demand curve has certainly been disrupted there....

Without question, this debate has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the preservation of integrity in a disintigrating profession.

 

[pilotyip]

"Did it not occur to you that perhaps the culture of the industry, with few exceptions, may consider a pilot workforce as being entirely disposable due in no small part to our own actions? As we've seen in the past, there have always been people willing to fill the seats".
Any management that considers pilots as a disposable workforce is smoking dope. If you don't value your pilot and threat them like you are lucky to have them working for you, you are in trouble at the lower end carriers.

 

[PCL_128]

Any management that considers pilots as a disposable workforce is smoking dope.

Then there's an awful lot of dope smoking going on in airline board rooms.

Paradoxus, excellent post. I've actually never read any of Upton Sinclair's works, but I'll definitely put that on the to-do list.

 

[Paradoxus]

yes

My point exactly. Certainly, I've been at the receiving end of some of those dope-smokers' management practices. Unfortunately, my observations of the business as a whole place that type as being the ruling elite.

I dunno...I try and put myself in their place and posit whether I would be corrupted and attempt to steal so much from the very engines of my revenue. Just like the megadeth fan over at UPS, I don't think I have the requisite level of moral flexibility for the job. I would end up resigning the first moment my hand was forced.

Were I an owner, I can tell you with great assurance that I would encourage the unionization of my pilots, if for nothing more than a show of good faith: people deserve representation if they want it. Our society was indeed built on this very notion; representation in government and law are integral to the American way, yes? Should not representation within the workforce be not so encouraged as it is in other levels of society?

Unionization is emphatically NOT synonomous with hostile management-labor relations.

In former times skilled labor was organized in guilds to safeguard the integrity of the profession, it is a practice as old as the exchange of money for services in human civilization. It is NOT automatically economically counterproductive any more than private firearms in the hands of citizenry *automatically* foster crime.

Epigrammatically, the real issue here is not why there *should* be unions in aviation, it is in fact the question of why *shouldn't* there be.

 

[Paradoxus]

nice

Thanks PCL.

Sinclair's The Jungle is an excellent primer on early 20th century labor conditions.

 

[Gandalf]

Wow, where do I start…..

PILOTYIP -
“Any management that considers pilots as a disposable workforce is smoking dope. If you don't value your pilot and threat them like you are lucky to have them working for you, you are in trouble at the lower end carriers….”

Are you kidding me? EVERY MANAGEMENT AT EVERY COMPANY CONSIDERS ITS WORKFORCE DISPOSABLE….

Business, From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In economics, a business is a legally-recognized organizational entity existing within an economically free country designed to sell goods and/or services to consumers, usually in an effort to generate profit.

In predominantly capitalist economies, where most businesses are privately owned, businesses are typically formed to earn profit and grow the personal wealth of their owners.

The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for their work and their acceptance of risk

Again from Wikipedia.....

Nature of managerial work

In for-profit work, management has as its primary function the satisfaction of a range of stakeholders. This typically involves making a profit (for the shareholders), creating valued products at a reasonable cost (for customers), and providing rewarding employment opportunities (for employees).

Public, private, and voluntary sectors place different demands on managers, but all must retain the faith of those who select them (if they wish to retain their jobs), retain the faith of those people that fund the organization, and retain the faith of those who work for the organization...

Again, from Wikipedia....

"A trade union or labor union is an organization of workers. The trade union, through its leadership, bargains with the employer on behalf of union members (rank and file members) and negotiates labour contracts with employers. This may include the negotiation of wages, work rules, complaint procedures, rules governing hiring, firing and promotion of workers, benefits, workplace safety and policies.


WHERE IN THAT DEFINITION DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE PROFITABILITY OF THE COMPANY......IT DOESN'T....BECAUSE IT NOT THE UNIONS JOB....IT IS THE COMPANIES!!!

OK….We continue on…..

“…UNIONS at PROFITABLE companies like UPS can ensure the balance shares FAIRLY with the employees….”
“…They pay what they pay because they are a very PROFITABLE company. The UNION ensures that is FAIRLY SHARED…”
“…From what I have seen unions protect the weak performers. At PROFITABLE companies, NJ and UPS, FedEx UNIONS CAN ENSURE THAT MANAGEMENT SHARES WITH ITS EMPLOYEES…”

So, Although I commend your defense of unions against the post of "antisocialist" you contradict yourself all throughout your posts. It is a very naiiv e outlook to think that managements of companies will do their employees right ALL OF THE TIME.

How can the unions not be a beneficial thing for the employees, if you yourself state 3 times that the REASON THAT THE EMPLOYESS AT NJ, FEDEX, AND UPS get the pay and benefits that they do is due to the unions?

Again, contradicting statements in the same statement…”They pay what they pay because they are a very PROFITABLE company. The union ensures that is FAIRLY SHARED…”

HUH???? Either they pay what they pay due to the fact that they are profitable and management shares that with the employee or…. The union ensures that is fairly shared… NOT BOTH…..

AND NO “THEY” – MANAGEMENTS – WILL NEVER PAY WHAT THEY PAY BECAUSE THEY ARE PROFITABLE….

THEY PAY WHAT THEY PAY, BECAUSE IT WILL BE WHAT THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH PAYING!!! THAT IS THE VERY REASON THAT JOBS ARE BEING OUTSOURCED TO CHINA AND INDIA! THAT’S WHY WE HAVE MILLIONS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS FROM MEXICO, CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA FLOODING THE US FOR EMPLOYMENT!!!!

BECAUSE SOMEONE WILL EMPLOY THEM – CHEAPER WAGES= MORE PROFIT=SHAREHOLDERS HAPPY=KEEP MY JOB!!!!!!!!!

Do you actually believe that if given a choice the managements at NJ, FEDEX, and UPS would give their pilots what they have if there were no unions?

WHY IS IT THAT THESE PILOTS HAVE CHOSEN UNIONS! IF ALL YOU NEED IS A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH MANAGEMENT THEN WHY BOTHER? OH,…..MAYBE THE PILOTS AT THESE COMPANIES HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT ALTHOUGH A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH MANAGEMENT IS A GOOD THING, IT IS NOT EVERYTHING.

THEY ARE ASTUTE ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE FOCUS OF MANAGEMENT IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT AND AT MOST TIMES OPPOSITE THE FOCUS OF AN EMPLOYEE. IT HAS TO BE…IN ORDER FOR THE BUSINESS TO OPERATE PROFITABLY!!!! WHICH WE ALL WANT!!!!

HOWEVER, THOSE EMPLOYEES ARE NOT WILLING TO SACRIFICE CERTAIN THINGS IN THE NAME OF PROFITS.

NJ, FEDEX, AND UPS ARE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT…OH YEAH AND THAT OTHER COMPANY OUT THERE…SWA….IS AS WELL….

From Wikipedia - Transamerica was UNABLE TO RUN THE AIRLINE PROFITABLY, however, and as it divested its non-core holdings in the 1980s, sought a buyer for the airline. Finding none, the airline was dissolved and ceased operations on September 30, 1986.

“TRANSAMERICA” IN THAT DEFINITION IS THE COMPANY=MANAGEMENT. YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! WHEN THINGS ARE GOOD(PROFITABLE) FOR THE COMPANIES (your examples…NJ, FEDEX, AND UPS) THE EMPLOYEES ARE BETTER OFF BECAUSE OF THE UNIONS, BUT WHEN THINGS AREN’T SO GOOD IT IS THE UNIONS FAULT THAT THE EMPLOYEES ARE SUFFERING...

IS IT THE UNIONS FAULT THAT THE CEO JUST TOOK A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR BONUS WHEN THE COMPANY IS JUST EMERGING FROM BANKRUPTCY????!!!!

OR IS IT THE UNIONS FAULT THAT THE MARKET CONDITIONS CHANGED AND THE MANAGEMENT OF THE COMPANY DIDN'T REACT TO IT?

 

[pilotyip]

without taking care of your employees you are at a disadvantage in the market place. But there is balance.

 

[PCL_128]

without taking care of your employees you are at a disadvantage in the market place. But there is balance.

And that balance is usually only achieved with union intervention.

 

[pilotyip]

Not always directly

And that balance is usually only achieved with union intervention.

Companies that exceed pay, benefits, working conditions of union companies, give their employees the advances brought into the work force by the unions, without having to pay dues. The non-union transplants auto companies, do not have unions, but are reported to be better places to work than the UAW represented plants. Enlightened management understands. BTW I still remember the Teamsters taking dues out of my last paycheck as Zantop went out of buisness. I saved the pay stubb.