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Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

PCL_128

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Companies that exceed pay, benefits, working conditions of union companies, give their employees the advances brought into the work force by the unions, without having to pay dues. The non-union transplants auto companies, do not have unions, but are reported to be better places to work than the UAW represented plants.
That is still union intervention because those companies only provide those things to keep their workers from voting in a union. Without union companies out there to set the standards for wages, benefits, and work rules, those non-union workers would be getting minimum wage and slave labor conditions.
BTW I still remember the Teamsters taking dues out of my last paycheck as Zantop went out of buisness. I saved the pay stubb.
So what?
 

pilotyip

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Exactly!

That is still union intervention because those companies only provide those things to keep their workers from voting in a union. Without union companies out there to set the standards for wages, benefits, and work rules, those non-union workers would be getting minimum wage and slave labor conditions.

So what?
But indirectly, enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attacking employees. Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues. I have never said I am against what unions have done to make our industry a better place to work, things like single rooms on RON's etc. BTW “So What” Unions are in the business of selling dues. If the Teamsters were as enlightened as many of the higher quality managers, they would understand you just lost your job and needed every nickel to feed yourself and not take that $100 out of your last paycheck, which included credit for earned vacation days.
 

PCL_128

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<font face="Verdana">But indirectly, enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attacking employees.
"Enlightened management" is a pipe dream, and really only exists at SWA in this industry.
Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues. I have never said I am against what unions have done to make our industry a better place to work, things like single rooms on RON's etc.
In other words, you feel it's ok for these pilots to leach off of other pilots who are contributing to the cause both financially and otherwise? Non-union pilots are benefiting from unions, but are contributing nothing. In the end, they are worse off because the union would have more power and accomplish even more for them if they would just join the fight and create a true national brotherhood.
 

JoeMerchant

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Non-union pilots are benefiting from unions, but are contributing nothing. In the end, they are worse off because the union would have more power and accomplish even more for them if they would just join the fight and create a true national brotherhood.
When is ALPA going to create a "true national brotherhood"..... one doesn't exist today.... however we would all benefit if there was a "true national brotherhood"..... Have ALPA get on that would ya....
 

PCL_128

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When is ALPA going to create a "true national brotherhood"..... one doesn't exist today.... however we would all benefit if there was a "true national brotherhood"..... Have ALPA get on that would ya....
They're kind of busy dealing with back-stabbing, self-serving SOBs filing lawsuits.
 

Gandalf

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without taking care of your employees you are at a disadvantage in the market place. But there is balance.
Yes, but the real reason that managements of certain companies are "taking care of the employees" is to generate more production out of that employee IN ORDER TO MAKE A PROFIT FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS. It is what a good company should do.

It is also self-serving.

It also can be taken advantage of.

Show the employee that management "cares" and they won't be as concerned with what the management is doing with the company or what effect that may have on others.

I would bet the employees at Enron and WorldComm FELT THAT MANAGEMENT CARED. They probably had some great perks. Maybe some things like in-house day care, gym memberships, reimbursements for various things, etc. etc. All of these "intrinsic" things make you as the employee FEEL valued.

It DOES NOT change the fact that managements focus is profits. The execs and managers at Enron and WorldComm got greedy. They took advantage of the "FEEL GOOD" rug that they had pulled over the eyes of their employees and investors. What makes you so sure it won't happen again?

The key is to TAKE OUT THE EMOTIONS. Realize that it is what it is. Business. Employer priorities vs. Employee priorities.

Do your job to the best of your abilities. Assist the company in its goals. But don't let your emotions blind you concerning the facts and realities of business.

In this industry, with all of the responsibilities that we hold in our hands it is incumbent on us that we take out the emotions and....

Realize that the management drive for profit will often contradict and interfere with OUR needs to provide safe service.
 

pilotyip

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Am I a leach?

In other words, you feel it's ok for these pilots to leach off of other pilots who are contributing to the cause both financially and otherwise? Non-union pilots are benefiting from unions, but are contributing nothing. In the end, they are worse off because the union would have more power and accomplish even more for them if they would just join the fight and create a true national brotherhood.
PCL says all non-union pilots are leaches, is that what I see here? So as a former dues paying union member who finds himself unemployed and takes a job at a great non-union company I am now a leach? Is that close to being a SCAB? And it is all right for unions to take money from unemployed pilots?
 
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PCL_128

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PCL says all non-union pilots are leaches, is that what I see here?
Yeah, pretty much. When you benefit from what unions have accomplished without contributing to the cause, you are a leech.
And it is all right for unions to take money from unemployed pilots?
Where does it stop? Does the next pilot group that takes concessions claim that they also have a financial hardship and can't pay dues? What if there's a downturn and everyone is taking paycuts? Does everyone stop paying dues because they claim they can't afford it? I'm sorry that your company went out of business, and I hate to defend the Teamsters, but they were not unjustified in taking dues out of your paycheck.
 

pilotyip

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Hey PCL you did not answer this part "So as a former dues paying union member who finds himself unemployed and takes a job at a great non-union company I am now a leach? Is that close to being a SCAB?"
 

pilotyip

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How about what ALPA did to the EAL F/E's in the machainist union when they went out on strike. ALPA said, hey don't worry we can fill those seats from our union. Screw our brothers in that other union.
 

PCL_128

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Hey PCL you did not answer this part "So as a former dues paying union member who finds himself unemployed and takes a job at a great non-union company I am now a leach? Is that close to being a SCAB?"
Well, I already answered the first part of the question. As to being a "scab," no, it's not the same thing. There's nothing worse than stealing a job from someone, and that's what a SCAB does.
 

PCL_128

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How about what ALPA did to the EAL F/E's in the machainist union when they went out on strike. ALPA said, hey don't worry we can fill those seats from our union. Screw our brothers in that other union.
Wow, you're going way back on that one. This happened in the 50s or 60s if I remember right. At the time, flight engineers had their own union called the Flight Engineers International Association (FEIA). ALPA was concerned about having members of two different unions with different priorities and different goals working together on the same flight deck. It was causing problems with crew members butting heads, and ALPA was worried about it affecting safety. ALPA wanted to represent the flight engineers also, but the FE's wanted their own union and didn't seem to care about the problems that ALPA addressed with having different unions represented on the same flight deck. Having given the FE's the opportunity to join ALPA and get rid of their own union, and FEs refusing, ALPA felt that there was no way to work with these guys. It seemed that continual conflict was inevitable. So when the FEs went on strike, ALPA made the decision to negotiate with management for all flight deck positions to be ALPA positions, including that of the FE. Of course, this killed FEIA, but ALPA accepted all FEIA members into ALPA, just as they tried to get the FEIA members to do from the beginning.
 

Jetpipeovht

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ALPA needs an overhaul and until they get their act together, they are not getting a dime from me.
 

pilotyip

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What a lovely spin

Wow, you're going way back on that one. This happened in the 50s or 60s if I remember right. At the time, flight engineers had their own union called the Flight Engineers International Association (FEIA). ALPA was concerned about having members of two different unions with different priorities and different goals working together on the same flight deck. It was causing problems with crew members butting heads, and ALPA was worried about it affecting safety. ALPA wanted to represent the flight engineers also, but the FE's wanted their own union and didn't seem to care about the problems that ALPA addressed with having different unions represented on the same flight deck. Having given the FE's the opportunity to join ALPA and get rid of their own union, and FEs refusing, ALPA felt that there was no way to work with these guys. It seemed that continual conflict was inevitable. So when the FEs went on strike, ALPA made the decision to negotiate with management for all flight deck positions to be ALPA positions, including that of the FE. Of course, this killed FEIA, but ALPA accepted all FEIA members into ALPA, just as they tried to get the FEIA members to do from the beginning.
I flew with the ex EAL F/E's on the L-188 at Transamerican, that is not the story I was told on those long flights years ago. They said because they did not come over when first offered, they were later told too bad! you have been replaced. At Transamerican the piltos were aLPA, and the F/E's Teamsters, I asked him how come you guys don't go over to ALPA, WOW! I never asked that question again.
 

Rez O. Lewshun

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ALPA needs an overhaul and until they get their act together, they are not getting a dime from me.
Which do you think will come first?


IOW...why not pay dues like the rest and help overhaul?
 

TinGoose1

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PCL-128,

I believe that ALPA national had a strike by their office workers a few years back. I think they were going to go around that union and hire non-union office workers. It was simple poetry.

I think they should have whipsawed the two groups against each other in an effort to lower their wages. Maybe even start up a third secretarial group and shift the office work around in a bidding war against one another. They could have called the young secretaries "regional" and the old secretaries "legacy". Then when the young secretaries started working for less, the office could shift more of the work over to them with the hopes of becoming one of the old "legacy" gals. But that would be stealing a job, and under your definition a scab position. Good thing that never happened at the national offices.

-TG
 

PCL_128

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PCL-128,

I believe that ALPA national had a strike by their office workers a few years back. I think they were going to go around that union and hire non-union office workers. It was simple poetry.
NO, they most certainly were not. I never heard a single mention of office SCABs during the short strike of the staff. In fact, Duane and Jalmer went out of their way to be respectful to the striking staffers. The offices shut down during the strike. A reasonable compromise was made on their contract, and they returned to work quickly. It was a perfect example of how labor relations should work.
 
B

BE90flyer

NO, they most certainly were not. I never heard a single mention of office SCABs during the short strike of the staff. In fact, Duane and Jalmer went out of their way to be respectful to the striking staffers. The offices shut down during the strike. A reasonable compromise was made on their contract, and they returned to work quickly. It was a perfect example of how labor relations should work.
Now I have heard it all. I will now seek out an company with ALPA. I heard Mesa is hiring, can anyone give me the good or bad?
 

waveflyer

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I really like ANTISOCIALIST's posts- they are a good balance- especially since most major airline pilots are a walking contradiction-- Ardent republican free marketers who absolutely believe that and THEN set up the most socialist of all possible career systems.
Then wonder why they aren't happy or satisfied with a career that should be both.

Everyone here needs to read Ayn Rand's ATLAS SHRUGGED. Just to give perspective.

Then remember that she has her assumptions in her work- that capitalism uncorrupted is what we're after. How do you stop the corruption-- ie:unions/gov't- "who watches the watchers?" Capitalism unchecked is feudalism eventually and will lend itself to oppression- It DOES NEED A BALANCE.

But I HATE the COMPLETE LACK OF CONTROL AND FLEXIBILITY THAT OUR CURRENT SYSTEM INSTILLS IN OUR CAREERS. I HATE the LEVERAGE THAT WE GIVE TO MANAGEMENT IN THE FORM OF SENIORITY ONLY AT OUR CURRENT CARRIER.

Either get a national list- or get out of the way and become a guild/PAC- and let every professional here go whatever direction they want.
 
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