Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

[Paradoxus]

nice

Thanks PCL.

Sinclair's The Jungle is an excellent primer on early 20th century labor conditions.

 

[Gandalf]

Wow, where do I start…..

PILOTYIP -
“Any management that considers pilots as a disposable workforce is smoking dope. If you don't value your pilot and threat them like you are lucky to have them working for you, you are in trouble at the lower end carriers….”

Are you kidding me? EVERY MANAGEMENT AT EVERY COMPANY CONSIDERS ITS WORKFORCE DISPOSABLE….

Business, From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In economics, a business is a legally-recognized organizational entity existing within an economically free country designed to sell goods and/or services to consumers, usually in an effort to generate profit.

In predominantly capitalist economies, where most businesses are privately owned, businesses are typically formed to earn profit and grow the personal wealth of their owners.

The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for their work and their acceptance of risk

Again from Wikipedia.....

Nature of managerial work

In for-profit work, management has as its primary function the satisfaction of a range of stakeholders. This typically involves making a profit (for the shareholders), creating valued products at a reasonable cost (for customers), and providing rewarding employment opportunities (for employees).

Public, private, and voluntary sectors place different demands on managers, but all must retain the faith of those who select them (if they wish to retain their jobs), retain the faith of those people that fund the organization, and retain the faith of those who work for the organization...

Again, from Wikipedia....

"A trade union or labor union is an organization of workers. The trade union, through its leadership, bargains with the employer on behalf of union members (rank and file members) and negotiates labour contracts with employers. This may include the negotiation of wages, work rules, complaint procedures, rules governing hiring, firing and promotion of workers, benefits, workplace safety and policies.


WHERE IN THAT DEFINITION DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE PROFITABILITY OF THE COMPANY......IT DOESN'T....BECAUSE IT NOT THE UNIONS JOB....IT IS THE COMPANIES!!!

OK….We continue on…..

“…UNIONS at PROFITABLE companies like UPS can ensure the balance shares FAIRLY with the employees….”
“…They pay what they pay because they are a very PROFITABLE company. The UNION ensures that is FAIRLY SHARED…”
“…From what I have seen unions protect the weak performers. At PROFITABLE companies, NJ and UPS, FedEx UNIONS CAN ENSURE THAT MANAGEMENT SHARES WITH ITS EMPLOYEES…”

So, Although I commend your defense of unions against the post of "antisocialist" you contradict yourself all throughout your posts. It is a very naiiv e outlook to think that managements of companies will do their employees right ALL OF THE TIME.

How can the unions not be a beneficial thing for the employees, if you yourself state 3 times that the REASON THAT THE EMPLOYESS AT NJ, FEDEX, AND UPS get the pay and benefits that they do is due to the unions?

Again, contradicting statements in the same statement…”They pay what they pay because they are a very PROFITABLE company. The union ensures that is FAIRLY SHARED…”

HUH???? Either they pay what they pay due to the fact that they are profitable and management shares that with the employee or…. The union ensures that is fairly shared… NOT BOTH…..

AND NO “THEY” – MANAGEMENTS – WILL NEVER PAY WHAT THEY PAY BECAUSE THEY ARE PROFITABLE….

THEY PAY WHAT THEY PAY, BECAUSE IT WILL BE WHAT THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH PAYING!!! THAT IS THE VERY REASON THAT JOBS ARE BEING OUTSOURCED TO CHINA AND INDIA! THAT’S WHY WE HAVE MILLIONS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS FROM MEXICO, CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA FLOODING THE US FOR EMPLOYMENT!!!!

BECAUSE SOMEONE WILL EMPLOY THEM – CHEAPER WAGES= MORE PROFIT=SHAREHOLDERS HAPPY=KEEP MY JOB!!!!!!!!!

Do you actually believe that if given a choice the managements at NJ, FEDEX, and UPS would give their pilots what they have if there were no unions?

WHY IS IT THAT THESE PILOTS HAVE CHOSEN UNIONS! IF ALL YOU NEED IS A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH MANAGEMENT THEN WHY BOTHER? OH,…..MAYBE THE PILOTS AT THESE COMPANIES HAVE FIGURED OUT THAT ALTHOUGH A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH MANAGEMENT IS A GOOD THING, IT IS NOT EVERYTHING.

THEY ARE ASTUTE ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE FOCUS OF MANAGEMENT IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT AND AT MOST TIMES OPPOSITE THE FOCUS OF AN EMPLOYEE. IT HAS TO BE…IN ORDER FOR THE BUSINESS TO OPERATE PROFITABLY!!!! WHICH WE ALL WANT!!!!

HOWEVER, THOSE EMPLOYEES ARE NOT WILLING TO SACRIFICE CERTAIN THINGS IN THE NAME OF PROFITS.

NJ, FEDEX, AND UPS ARE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT…OH YEAH AND THAT OTHER COMPANY OUT THERE…SWA….IS AS WELL….

From Wikipedia - Transamerica was UNABLE TO RUN THE AIRLINE PROFITABLY, however, and as it divested its non-core holdings in the 1980s, sought a buyer for the airline. Finding none, the airline was dissolved and ceased operations on September 30, 1986.

“TRANSAMERICA” IN THAT DEFINITION IS THE COMPANY=MANAGEMENT. YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! WHEN THINGS ARE GOOD(PROFITABLE) FOR THE COMPANIES (your examples…NJ, FEDEX, AND UPS) THE EMPLOYEES ARE BETTER OFF BECAUSE OF THE UNIONS, BUT WHEN THINGS AREN’T SO GOOD IT IS THE UNIONS FAULT THAT THE EMPLOYEES ARE SUFFERING...

IS IT THE UNIONS FAULT THAT THE CEO JUST TOOK A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR BONUS WHEN THE COMPANY IS JUST EMERGING FROM BANKRUPTCY????!!!!

OR IS IT THE UNIONS FAULT THAT THE MARKET CONDITIONS CHANGED AND THE MANAGEMENT OF THE COMPANY DIDN'T REACT TO IT?

 

[pilotyip]

without taking care of your employees you are at a disadvantage in the market place. But there is balance.

 

[PCL_128]

without taking care of your employees you are at a disadvantage in the market place. But there is balance.

And that balance is usually only achieved with union intervention.

 

[pilotyip]

Not always directly

And that balance is usually only achieved with union intervention.

Companies that exceed pay, benefits, working conditions of union companies, give their employees the advances brought into the work force by the unions, without having to pay dues. The non-union transplants auto companies, do not have unions, but are reported to be better places to work than the UAW represented plants. Enlightened management understands. BTW I still remember the Teamsters taking dues out of my last paycheck as Zantop went out of buisness. I saved the pay stubb.

 

[PCL_128]

Companies that exceed pay, benefits, working conditions of union companies, give their employees the advances brought into the work force by the unions, without having to pay dues. The non-union transplants auto companies, do not have unions, but are reported to be better places to work than the UAW represented plants.

That is still union intervention because those companies only provide those things to keep their workers from voting in a union. Without union companies out there to set the standards for wages, benefits, and work rules, those non-union workers would be getting minimum wage and slave labor conditions.

BTW I still remember the Teamsters taking dues out of my last paycheck as Zantop went out of buisness. I saved the pay stubb.

So what?

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly!

That is still union intervention because those companies only provide those things to keep their workers from voting in a union. Without union companies out there to set the standards for wages, benefits, and work rules, those non-union workers would be getting minimum wage and slave labor conditions.

So what?

But indirectly, enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attacking employees. Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues. I have never said I am against what unions have done to make our industry a better place to work, things like single rooms on RON's etc. BTW “So What” Unions are in the business of selling dues. If the Teamsters were as enlightened as many of the higher quality managers, they would understand you just lost your job and needed every nickel to feed yourself and not take that $100 out of your last paycheck, which included credit for earned vacation days.

 

[PCL_128]

<font face="Verdana">But indirectly, enlightened management knows you have to match industry standards to be competitive in retaining and attacking employees.

"Enlightened management" is a pipe dream, and really only exists at SWA in this industry.

Therefore employees at those non-union companies benefit from the union company work rules without having to pay dues. I have never said I am against what unions have done to make our industry a better place to work, things like single rooms on RON's etc.

In other words, you feel it's ok for these pilots to leach off of other pilots who are contributing to the cause both financially and otherwise? Non-union pilots are benefiting from unions, but are contributing nothing. In the end, they are worse off because the union would have more power and accomplish even more for them if they would just join the fight and create a true national brotherhood.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Non-union pilots are benefiting from unions, but are contributing nothing. In the end, they are worse off because the union would have more power and accomplish even more for them if they would just join the fight and create a true national brotherhood.

When is ALPA going to create a "true national brotherhood"..... one doesn't exist today.... however we would all benefit if there was a "true national brotherhood"..... Have ALPA get on that would ya....

 

[PCL_128]

When is ALPA going to create a "true national brotherhood"..... one doesn't exist today.... however we would all benefit if there was a "true national brotherhood"..... Have ALPA get on that would ya....

They're kind of busy dealing with back-stabbing, self-serving SOBs filing lawsuits.

 

[Gandalf]

They're kind of busy dealing with back-stabbing, self-serving SOBs filing lawsuits.

NICE!

 

[Gandalf]

without taking care of your employees you are at a disadvantage in the market place. But there is balance.

Yes, but the real reason that managements of certain companies are "taking care of the employees" is to generate more production out of that employee IN ORDER TO MAKE A PROFIT FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS. It is what a good company should do.

It is also self-serving.

It also can be taken advantage of.

Show the employee that management "cares" and they won't be as concerned with what the management is doing with the company or what effect that may have on others.

I would bet the employees at Enron and WorldComm FELT THAT MANAGEMENT CARED. They probably had some great perks. Maybe some things like in-house day care, gym memberships, reimbursements for various things, etc. etc. All of these "intrinsic" things make you as the employee FEEL valued.

It DOES NOT change the fact that managements focus is profits. The execs and managers at Enron and WorldComm got greedy. They took advantage of the "FEEL GOOD" rug that they had pulled over the eyes of their employees and investors. What makes you so sure it won't happen again?

The key is to TAKE OUT THE EMOTIONS. Realize that it is what it is. Business. Employer priorities vs. Employee priorities.

Do your job to the best of your abilities. Assist the company in its goals. But don't let your emotions blind you concerning the facts and realities of business.

In this industry, with all of the responsibilities that we hold in our hands it is incumbent on us that we take out the emotions and....

Realize that the management drive for profit will often contradict and interfere with OUR needs to provide safe service.

 

[pilotyip]

Am I a leach?

In other words, you feel it's ok for these pilots to leach off of other pilots who are contributing to the cause both financially and otherwise? Non-union pilots are benefiting from unions, but are contributing nothing. In the end, they are worse off because the union would have more power and accomplish even more for them if they would just join the fight and create a true national brotherhood.

PCL says all non-union pilots are leaches, is that what I see here? So as a former dues paying union member who finds himself unemployed and takes a job at a great non-union company I am now a leach? Is that close to being a SCAB? And it is all right for unions to take money from unemployed pilots?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL says all non-union pilots are leaches, is that what I see here?

Yeah, pretty much. When you benefit from what unions have accomplished without contributing to the cause, you are a leech.

And it is all right for unions to take money from unemployed pilots?

Where does it stop? Does the next pilot group that takes concessions claim that they also have a financial hardship and can't pay dues? What if there's a downturn and everyone is taking paycuts? Does everyone stop paying dues because they claim they can't afford it? I'm sorry that your company went out of business, and I hate to defend the Teamsters, but they were not unjustified in taking dues out of your paycheck.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey PCL you did not answer this part "So as a former dues paying union member who finds himself unemployed and takes a job at a great non-union company I am now a leach? Is that close to being a SCAB?"