Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

[John Pennekamp]

Reasons like these are why I decided to vote yes. My wife is going back to school soon and I will be the sole provider for her and our children. If I were by chance caught in a situation as J and E, we would be SCREWED. I don't think things would have gotten any better or worse at SkyWest if the voted passed, but having that type of protection would be a no brainer.

I will also say that some of you ALPA chest thumpers here have done an EXTREME injustice to the ALPA drive and the image of ALPA. I have no doubt that a sizable portion of the 65% were likely turned away by your negative and hostile attitudes. The next drive will probably be no better with those types around. You all know who you are. On the other hand, there have been a lot of very professional members on this board that took the time to educate the SkyWest pilots on the benefits and importance of a union. They made the biggest difference in the cause.

The drive failed. Let's get over it.

Me, I assume. So now it's our fault the drive failed?

Don't worry, there won't be another drive. Those of us who gave up time with our families to try to help you have given up on your pilot group. Oh, and you're welcome. You could have just said thanks.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

I don't trust anyone, that's precisely the point that you collectivists miss out on. I trust myself, and it's the collectivists that prevent me from taking charge of my own career.

The bottom line on unions is that they exist for no reason than to protect the most senior members (as well as to provide power for union "leadership").

Disagree? Ask what our RJ brethren think about their "representation".

 

[John Pennekamp]

I don't trust anyone, that's precisely the point that you collectivists miss out on. I trust myself, and it's the collectivists that prevent me from taking charge of my own career.

Ok. Details? How would the "collectivists" be doing that?

The bottom line on unions is that they exist for no reason than to protect the most senior members (as well as to provide power for union "leadership").

Really? Example? Personal experience or hearsay?

Disagree? Ask what our RJ brethren think about their "representation".

I dunno, I'd say a MAJORITY (Joe Merchant excluded) of ASA pilots are satisfied with our representation. And we fly RJs. Go on.

 

[A350]

Mega:

You may not agree, but you are looking at this from a perspective most of us are not.....

The cargo carriers, (I agree have management that is as greedy as the next), are a completely different ball game than the passenger carriers. And of the cargo carriers, UPS isn't ALPA. FedEx and others are. Of the cargo carriers, UPS and FedEx are the only "success" stories and SWA and to a lesser extent AMR are the passenger "success" stories.

FedEx and UPS are two companies who basically split the cargo in this country and abroad. There are niche players who fill voids, but you are speaking from a bullypulpit most of us wish we could.

SWA and AMR....SWA speaks for itself and AMR, for all the "battles" they are fighting still have a profitable carrier with a pension. The other passenger carriers are profitable now, but will never have the power to make money like UPS and FedEx until there is consolidation down to 3 or 4 carriers in the mainline US with large international ops.

Now that you have read my rant....IMO, there is no way you can compare what has happened where you are with where the SKYW pilots are or for that matter any passenger carrier.

If being part of the team is so great, why isn't UPS ALPA? I will bet the first guy who stands up in SDF and screams that ALPA is the way to go leaves with a few bruises and a limp.

ALPA has failed to represent all pilots to the betterment of all. They have successes from time to time, but their successes generally benefit one segment of their representation and hurt another. ALPA cannot represent competing interests and win. Anyone who has lived through 20 years of ALPA and has 4 uniforms in their closet is speaking from a place you will never be.

Instead of criticizing those less fortunate than you, perhaps thanking your lucky stars you aren't where they are or have been would be in order.

A350

 

[CA1900]

The bottom line on unions is that they exist for no reason than to protect the most senior members (as well as to provide power for union "leadership").

My experience with my current union is completely the opposite of what you've described. For example, our TA, while benefiting everyone to some extent, is giving the largest pay raises and QOL improvements to the most junior on our seniority list.

You're painting "unions" with a pretty broad brush. They're as good--or as bad--as the membership makes them.

 

[Lazy8]

It just absolutely freaking BLOWS MY MIND to see all the anti union pilots on here!

I mean, correct me if I am wrong here but IMO if you don't want a union, you are basically saying you trust management. Can management and trust really be used in the same sentence these days? Don't people see the crooks for who they are? Maybe I should start smoking whatever they are....

I just don't get it. WTF???? Management sticks together, why don't pilots? Management must be loving these people.

I don't get it either... but then again - these are the type of folks that voted for Bush... twice!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't trust anyone, that's precisely the point that you collectivists miss out on. I trust myself, and it's the collectivists that prevent me from taking charge of my own career.

Do do what? Show up and fly your trip and go home.. and take whatever your boss send your away... Taking charge of what career? And How are you going to do it... tell your boss if he doesn't see it your way you will quit... and if he says go ahead.. then what? Are you going to take charge..

The bottom line on unions is that they exist for no reason than to protect the most senior members (as well as to provide power for union "leadership").

Unions are democracies... how involved and effective you are is up to you..hows that for taking charge?

Disagree? Ask what our RJ brethren think about their "representation".

Its just fine... democratic and all

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

ALPA has failed to represent all pilots to the betterment of all. A350

No...pilots have failed to understand how all of this works.. they expect ALPA to be thier ones stop shopping express lane check out wunderkind...

ALPA does fine representing ALL pilots under the circumstances... pilots have failed to align thier expectations with reality and particapte in thier careers...

 

[PCL_128]

I dunno, I'd say a MAJORITY (Joe Merchant excluded) of ASA pilots are satisfied with our representation. And we fly RJs. Go on.

And I'd say that an overwhelming majority of the regional pilots at Pinnacle are satisfied with their ALPA representation too.

 

[BE90flyer]

Friends don't let friends work at Pinnacle!!!

But ALPA represents you well? Pinnacle is the worst regional out there, you have said it yourself. How come ALPA doesnt come in and save the day?

 

[SkyNation]

And I'd say that an overwhelming majority of the regional pilots at Pinnacle are satisfied with their ALPA representation too.

now I've heard it all.

 

[capt. megadeth]

1. Now that you have read my rant....IMO, there is no way you can compare what has happened where you are with where the SKYW pilots are or for that matter any passenger carrier.

2. If being part of the team is so great, why isn't UPS ALPA? I will bet the first guy who stands up in SDF and screams that ALPA is the way to go leaves with a few bruises and a limp.

3. ALPA has failed to represent all pilots to the betterment of all. They have successes from time to time, but their successes generally benefit one segment of their representation and hurt another. ALPA cannot represent competing interests and win. Anyone who has lived through 20 years of ALPA and has 4 uniforms in their closet is speaking from a place you will never be.

4. Instead of criticizing those less fortunate than you, perhaps thanking your lucky stars you aren't where they are or have been would be in order.

A350

1. A350, my fiancee (who is pretty much my husband, just without the legalities, ie. all our assets are together, etc) flies for Skywest, so anything that happens there, directly affects me. I am not comparing UPS to anything. Can you point out where I did this please?
Also, contrary to popular belief, I did not just get my PPL and get on with UPS. I've been at 2 other airlines, one of which was non union. Sure, we were all young and naive but it sure would have been nice to have a union there. We tried to get ALPA there (I was on the OC) but it didn't pass. The other place I worked had Teamsters (they were working on the first contract while I was there) and boy, let me tell ya......it was so much fun to have a 3 page policy manual that stated "USA3000 can change any policy in this document at any time" on top of it. So, there is no need to act like I was born a UPSer, k? I might not have direct experience with ALPA but I have plenty of experience with non union carriers.

2. I will agree with you there. It's great to be independent....the best scenario IMO if you have the resources.

3. I do agree with you there too. I hope I am never there....very true.

4. How many times do I have to say that the way I look at it is the lesser of 2 evils? Wherever you have been, if it's been an ALPA carrier, would you rather have had no union and your management calling all the shots?

 

[capt. megadeth]

I don't get it either... but then again - these are the type of folks that voted for Bush... twice!

Ashamed to admit it but I voted for the bafoon the last time, although he didn't win the electoral in my state anyway.

 

[JPAustin]

Gotta Agree

It just absolutely freaking BLOWS MY MIND to see all the anti union pilots on here!

I mean, correct me if I am wrong here but IMO if you don't want a union, you are basically saying you trust management. Can management and trust really be used in the same sentence these days? Don't people see the crooks for who they are? Maybe I should start smoking whatever they are....

I just don't get it. WTF???? Management sticks together, why don't pilots? Management must be loving these people.

I'll admit, I am not a big fan of ALPA, but I paid my dues, volunteered my time and efforts, and walked a couple picket lines. What I am saying is that, PILOT GROUPS NEED REPRESENTATION, and ALPA is the probably the best bet (versus Teamsters and TWU). ALPA can use a lot of revamping in my opinion, but its purpose is still just and true, and managements will rape and pillage if they can.

Now, the Skywest Pilots have voted and the majority has spoken and we cannot fault them -- that is what they want and they feel they can do it as their own group. I wish them the best and, from a good management point of view, it is actually better to be on friendly terms with their employees so as to avoid unionization. But hey, whoever said airline management was good?

 

[Inconceivable]

If it were up to management, every employee outside of management would make minimum wage and receive no benefits.

One of the things I will always remember is Jack Moers telling Phildo in a pilot meeting (referring to the rampers):

"When you pay people minimum wage, you're basically telling them that you would pay them less if you could but don't want to go to jail."

Boy was Phildo p!$$ed off! I think that might have weakened the blood vessel in his brain...so technically, Jack should get credit for the assist...

 

[A350]

Mega:

Don't mistake my post for an accusation saying that you are young, stupid, or anything like that....you are speaking from your perspective of being employed at a hugely successful airline with money in the bank and plenty to spend. Of course, you do have the perspective of previous non-union work...but could part of the reason you see union vs. non-union the way you do be because you are working for a successful union gig?

What I am alluding to is the guy who has paid ALPA dues for 20 years and has 4 uniforms in his closet because ALPA failed to protect his career. In most cases the failed career for one was a boon for another.

We can scream about bad management, and for the most part, they are bad with few exception. But a lot of ALPA's policies or lack thereof have contributed to the industry we see today. We have regional pilots competing with mainline pilots for flights, airplanes, and jobs. We have regional pilots competing with other regional pilots for flights, airplanes, and jobs. The fact that 90% of them are represented by ALPA means ALPA is two faced when it comes to these things. The independent unions only have one group to worry about.....the group that formed them.

Rez, Occam, and PCL can scream to the heavens that it is we who control the destiny of the union, but until the union protects those who stick their neck out, there will be no participation.

A350

 

[SkyNation]

Rez, Occam, and PCL can scream to the heavens that it is we who control the destiny of the union, but until the union protects those who stick their neck out, there will be no participation.

A350

and oh, man, will they scream. never mind that PCL paid a scab for his job, worked for one of the lowliest ALPA regionals, and now 'undercuts' (their word) other pilots by flying the same AC for less.

just never mind all that stuff.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Of course, you do have the perspective of previous non-union work...but could part of the reason you see union vs. non-union the way you do be because you are working for a successful union gig?



A350

I don't think so. I don't know how many times I have to say this. I look at it as non-union (management has you by the you know whats) and union (you have at least some negotiation going on)....the lesser of two evils. Our union has nothing to do with it. I have always felt this way before I came to UPS.

I do think our union is one of the best but they are far from perfect. We have our own internal problems similar to what I hear about ALPA (ie. senior members looking out for themselves, etc.). Of course we don't have to deal with a conflict of interest in regards to other carriers so that is a good thing.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Anti union pilots...I don't get it

Friends don't let friends work at Pinnacle!!!

But ALPA represents you well? Pinnacle is the worst regional out there, you have said it yourself. How come ALPA doesnt come in and save the day?

PCL 128 was an ALPA status rep at Pinnacle who abandoned his pilot group in the middle of contract negotiations to take a job at a non ALPA carrier.

In my opinion, he has no standing to condemn anyone who rejects ALPA for any reason, whatsoever.

 

[PCL_128]

Friends don't let friends work at Pinnacle!!!

But ALPA represents you well? Pinnacle is the worst regional out there, you have said it yourself. How come ALPA doesnt come in and save the day?

I've never said that Pinnacle is the "worst regional out there." Far from it. There are plenty worse. However, Pinnacle is a horrible place to work because of the management mentality. With that said, PCL ALPA does a superb job of protecting the pilots from overzealous managers. The number of jobs/careers of PCL pilots that have been saved by the hardworking volunteers of PCL ALPA is truly astounding. Despite how much I hate PCL management, I would still choose to work at Pinnacle over Skywest any day. The career protection and peace of mind of legal representation is just too important. Having seen the polling results when I was on the MEC at Pinnacle, I can tell you with complete certainty that an overwhelming majority of the PCL pilot group is more than satisfied with their ALPA representation.