Anti union pilots.....I don't get it.

[pilotyip]

Better Way?

Here's how unions define us as simply hourly blue collar workers: Date of hire seniority lists.

Here's how to define ourselves in more of a professional status: Abolish seniority lists and pay based on education, training, experience, and professional accomplishments.

Why does a furloughed pilot with 10,000 hours and a pocket full of type ratings get paid $19/hour sitting in the right seat at a regional just like a 300 hour CFI? It is completely illogical. If you could move into the a comparable paying position with another company think of the power you would have. If you didn't like your pay and working conditions at airline ABC then you could move to ariline XYZ without starting over. Do you think that if an account manager from Deloitte and Touche crossed over to Ernst & Young that he would have to start over as an intern? That's what our industry does.

It'll never happen in my lifetime but it would have the same positive effect on our industry that it has had on every other industry in the free world.

What is a better way, ABC needs a 757 Captain, a current qualified one was just laid off by XYZ airlines, ABC hires him at $180K/yr. Sorry Mr F/O who has been at ABC for 7 years, it is cheaper to do that than upgrade you, so stay there at your $90K/yr job.
Have it put in your next union contract to hire off the street to protect the pay of the brother hood. I bet it does not happen remember all contracts are local in nature, and the locals protect thier own.

 

[capt. megadeth]

What should management at UPS do to make you less unhappy? The UPS job is at the absolute top of the food chain in terms of making it, but that is not good enought when you get there?

Who said I was unhappy?

The reason I am happy at UPS is due to the efforts of IPA, not UPS managment. If they could make us work 29 days out of the month for $20K a year, they would. I'm completely happy (of course, there are always things that could be better everywhere) but in no way, shape or form do I think anyone in UPS management gives a true crap about me. Anyone that would think that is crazy but hey, ignorance is bliss!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here's how unions define us as simply hourly blue collar workers: Date of hire seniority lists.

Here's how to define ourselves in more of a professional status: Abolish seniority lists and pay based on education, training, experience, and professional accomplishments.

Why does a furloughed pilot with 10,000 hours and a pocket full of type ratings get paid $19/hour sitting in the right seat at a regional just like a 300 hour CFI? It is completely illogical. If you could move into the a comparable paying position with another company think of the power you would have. If you didn't like your pay and working conditions at airline ABC then you could move to ariline XYZ without starting over. Do you think that if an account manager from Deloitte and Touche crossed over to Ernst & Young that he would have to start over as an intern? That's what our industry does.

It'll never happen in my lifetime but it would have the same positive effect on our industry that it has had on every other industry in the free world.

Sounds great.. please provide a critical and detailed analysis of your plan... provide the HOW as well... the only criteria is that everyone is treated fairly...

Keep in mind that you will have convince airlines to pay top wages for new hires... HOW are you going to do that. Please don't use a borad brush or say.. "ALPA should just do it"

Finally.. your suggested plan would lower wages significantly as furloughed pilots would keep lowering the bar to get a job... and the low time pilots would never advance cause there would always be a higher time pilot ready to take his job...

But you are smart guy... so let's hear your plan that addresses my concerns...

 

[pilotyip]

The other side

Who said I was unhappy?

The reason I am happy at UPS is due to the efforts of IPA, not UPS managment. If they could make us work 29 days out of the month for $20K a year, they would. I'm completely happy (of course, there are always things that could be better everywhere) but in no way, shape or form do I think anyone in UPS management gives a true crap about me. Anyone that would think that is crazy but hey, ignorance is bliss!

Hey how about you tell management you want to work one day a month for $100K/mo. You say management would pay you $20K for 28 days work. You know that is not true. They could not attract talented pilots such as your self to maintain their operations. Management has to balance between the two to ensure the bottom line and employee expectations to come up with a workable number. As stated before I am a former union member whose airlines are now out of business. Unions at profitable companies like UPS can ensure the balance shares fairly with the employees. It is a process to balance numbers. At marginally profitable airlines unions can do little to force a greater sharing. And BTW of course you are a number; everything in business is a number, wages, fuel, taxes, etc. If you have the answers to your problems you should go into management and make the company a better place to work.

 

[PCL_128]

And BTW of course you are a number

No, she is a person with a family and obligations. Fuel costs are a number. Debt service is a number. Employees are people. The fact that management doesn't get that is exactly the problem.

 

[Paradoxus]

Just what is it you are getting at, PilotYip? It seems as though you are equating the suicidal collapse of corrupt operators (i.e. Zantop claiming he would shut the place down in the event of a union) with blame placed squarely on the shoulders of a union.

Any operator threatening to "shut the place down" in the event of unionization really isn't worth a damn to begin with. Blame the unscupulous insects that ran the joint, not the employees for daring to ask for proper compensation.

You don't strike me as an Upton Sinclair fan, PilotYip.


Quote:
They could not attract talented pilots such as your self to maintain their operations.

Rubbish. I want to believe this is your attempt at levity.

Professionally, there is no compensation for measurable "talent" in aviation. A mediocre, yet passable pilot is paid just the same as a proper Yeager for the same seat. No doubt, you will counter this with claims to the contrary of your practices at USA Jet; you are a member of the training staff, yes? Perhaps. This is far from the status quo.

Make no mistake: UPS pays what it does ONLY because of the efforts of union negotiators. Skyus, in contrast, has tried to set a precedent for paying Airbus captains 65K/yr. It needn't be restated that management exists solely to extract as much profit as possible at the expense of the workforce. Any sense of moral obligation to labor that may exist in the ranks of managment only slighly attenuates this fact.

The indispensable content here is that we work in a dream job industry (this is how most every outsider sees it, don't deny it) , and as such we will always have to fight for professional-level compensation. We unionize and attempt at forcing employers to play nice, or we "vote with our feet" and shop every employer in the universe naively hoping for something better.

 

[MusicMan]

Quote:
They could not attract talented pilots such as your self to maintain their operations.

Rubbish. I want to believe this is your attempt at levity.

Actually, Pilotyip is correct. This is economics 101. It's called the supply and demand curve. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply here because the unions disrupt the equilibrium of the supply and demand curve.

 

[pilotyip]

Wrong

Make no mistake: UPS pays what it does ONLY because of the efforts of union negotiators. Skyus, in contrast, has tried to set a precedent for paying Airbus captains 65K/yr. It needn't be restated that management exists solely to extract as much profit as possible at the expense of the workforce. Any sense of moral obligation to labor that may exist in the ranks of managment only slighly attenuates this fact.

You don't strike me as an Upton Sinclair fan, PilotYip.

They pay what they pay because they are a very profitable company. The union ensures that is fairly shared, what many union militants don't seem to understand is if a new union came into Pinnacle they could not get the same pay. For all the union guys who have all the answers we desperately need your help on the management side. Please come over and help us. BTW who was Sinclair? Did he write a book on flying airplanes?

 

[PCL_128]

<font color="black">They pay what they pay because they are a very profitable company.

And they would love to be more profitable by screwing over their employees and paying them less and not giving them benefits. Honestly, for someone your age, you're very naive about how upper management thinks. These people see nothing but dollar signs, and the more they can steal from you, the more they can have for themselves.

 

[pilotyip]

Work with them all the time.

And they would love to be more profitable by screwing over their employees and paying them less and not giving them benefits. Honestly, for someone your age, you're very naive about how upper management thinks. These people see nothing but dollar signs, and the more they can steal from you, the more they can have for themselves.

Upper management here is aware of pilot concerns, since I came here days off are up 80% for DA-20 pilots, pay has doubled, many many things have been added by upper management to make this a better place to work. $100K for a DA-20 pilot is very doable after 10 years. No junior manning all scheduled days off are hard. Have not hired a Captain off the street since 1998. There is a single seniority list for 135 and 121 airplanes, respect seniority for all bids. Management knows that too much turnover is counter productive to staying in business. But there is a balance, when turnover is in a manageable range and you are profitable you are taking care of your employees. Twice the pilots have turned down union representation.